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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    a trusted reviewer in your neck of the woods...
    If we are talking about the same person, I have family in that town now.

    Ask him about the golf tournament that goes through the yards in the community..

    followed of course, by a party.

    jn

  2. #102
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    Hopefully you realized I was being sarcastic, but it is a good read for the all cable is the same crowd.

    Uh, I do now. We need a sarcasm smilie for our more heated threads.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
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    AQ SPKR and AQ XLR and IC

  3. #103
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    None are designed for EMC issues.
    I'm a pragmatist. The world is what it is. Cost controlled at every turn, too.


    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    Why would you say that? All I said was, I got a red x in a box where you linked a picture.
    Sorry, I thought it would be helpful to explain why you weren't getting the image.

    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    I've duplicated the valhalla.
    Matching three metrics, perhaps. I continue to disagree with the notion that is all that matters when used in real world systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    I did not say that lower effective dielectric coefficient, or faster prop velocity was better. Nor, worse. But different.
    Ok. Generally speaking lower EDC creates fewer interactions and phase changes than those with higher values.


    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    What were the numbers for both cables?
    1.33 vs 1.10.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Matching three metrics, perhaps. I continue to disagree with the notion that is all that matters when used in real world systems.
    You'll eventually agree with me...I'm patient..

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Ok. Generally speaking lower EDC creates fewer interactions and phase changes than those with higher values.
    It does? Why is that?

    Seriously, The interaction between cable length, it's EDC, it's characteristic Z and R, all conspire with the load to modify the soundstage imaging placement accuracy. Saying such a monotonic statement as you have isn't accurate. It's unfortunately, a tad more complicated than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    1.33 vs 1.10.
    Neat. What about the other numbers?

    jn

  5. #105
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    You'll eventually agree with me...I'm patient..
    Theory sure does look good on paper!

    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    Seriously, The interaction between cable length, it's EDC, it's characteristic Z and R, all conspire with the load to modify the soundstage imaging placement accuracy.
    How do you know those are the only factors. Which one(s) have you considered and ruled out?

    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    Saying such a monotonic statement as you have isn't accurate.
    I think "generally speaking" is a sufficient qualifier.

    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    It's unfortunately, a tad more complicated than that.
    On that we most certainly agree!


    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    Neat. What about the other numbers?
    Length was the same at ten feet or so. Z value not published for both cables. Good question. Very similar. We're not comparing 24 gauge zip to 12 gauge zip.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Theory sure does look good on paper!
    It's even better when it describes a model which is an accurate predictor of an outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    How do you know those are the only factors. Which one(s) have you considered and ruled out?
    The list is extensive. Color, height from floor, grain boundaries, 4 9's vs 7 9's, lots of really silly stuff.


    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Length was the same at ten feet or so. Z value not published for both cables. Good question. Very similar. We're not comparing 24 gauge zip to 12 gauge zip.
    How does one know effective dielectric constant without knowing the distributed L and C?? They conspire to create Z.

    jn

  7. #107
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    Color, height from floor, grain boundaries, 4 9's vs 7 9's, lots of really silly stuff.
    That is a list of silly stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    How does one know effective dielectric constant without knowing the distributed L and C?? They conspire to create Z.
    It would appear that you are looking for the "characteristic impedance" as I have already provided the EDC. At least according to your definitions from five years ago.

    Click here for them

    I was referring to the use of "Z" to represent impedance in ohms. Aren't you with the plan? After all, resistance is the ONLY important factor to Roger Russell. In that case, the answers are 1.09 /.09 vs. 1.33 / .04

    FWIW, the values for my JPS cable are 1.16 / .05.
    Last edited by E-Stat; 06-11-2012 at 01:02 PM.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    It would appear that you are looking for the "characteristic impedance" as I have already provided the EDC. At least according to your definitions from five years ago.

    Click here for them

    I was referring to the use of "Z" to represent impedance in ohms.
    I know. What is L, C, and R for the cable?

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Aren't you with the plan? After all, resistance is the ONLY important factor to Roger Russell.
    Luckily, I am not Roger Russel..

    Which is why I asked for the numbers.

    and yes, vprop =1/sqr(EDC)

    Z =sqr(L/C)

    cheers, jn

  9. #109
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    I know.
    But confused me by asking the wrong question.


    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    What is L, C, and R for the cable?
    9.2 pF / 0.15 mH / ??? vs. 11.8 pF / .096 mH / 2.6 ohms per 1000 ft.

    Will it go round in circles?
    Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky?


    I've already told you I do not have the resistance spec for both cables! It must be too late in the day.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    But confused me by asking the wrong question.
    That's a perk..

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    9.2 pF / 0.15 mH / ??? vs. 11.8 pF / .096 mH / 2.6 ohms per 1000 ft.
    So first cable EDC 1.33 and vprop 86.5%.

    Second EDC 1.09 and 95.5%.

    Now the unanswered question..What is the L, R, and C vs frequency?? And I know you don't have the infor, nor does the vendor. Sigh, this high end audio crew, nuttin but anarchy...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Will it go round in circles?
    Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky?

    I've got a song, ain't got no melody..

    I can't believe it. That's the first song on my playlist in the office...

    jn

  11. #111
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    Now the unanswered question..What is the L, R, and C vs frequency??
    I get the value of EDC and glad you concur with my math - theoretical goal of matching "perfect" dielectric of 1 to reduce time/phase distortion. What does the "characteristic impedance" tell you? Is .05 better than .09 or vice versa? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    That's the first song on my playlist in the office...
    Bonus!

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    I get the value of EDC and glad you concur with my math - theoretical goal of matching "perfect" dielectric of 1 to reduce time/phase distortion. What does the "characteristic impedance" tell you? Is .05 better than .09 or vice versa? Why?
    First cable 127 ohms, second 90 ohms, given the numbers you present.

    When a cable is constructed with parallel insulated conductors in a wide form factor, the magnetic field path is increased, increasing reluctance. This lowers the inductance per unit foot, but introduces susceptibility to freuqncy based changes in inductance. Proximity effect will cause the outer conductors to begin "shying away" from carrying current, and as a result, the inductance will lower with frequency and the resistance of the cable will begin to increase.



    What is .05 and .09?
    jn

  13. #113
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    First cable 127 ohms, second 90 ohms, given the numbers you present.
    What is the significance, if any, between those values?

    Quote Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
    What is .05 and .09?
    jn
    Operator error. First due to fumble fingers on calculator. Overall, I used mH as specified rather than nH. Difference in magnitude.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    What is the significance, if any, between those values?
    For the base numbers, it determines the settling time for the cable/load system. Since we're dealing with loads which are orders of magnitude lower than what the cable impedance is, the number of reflections necessary to get to 80/90% of final value will change.

    The caveat with the valhalla is what proximity effect on the cable width has on the cable Z vs frequency.




    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Operator error. First due to fumble fingers on calculator. Overall, I used mH as specified rather than nH. Difference in magnitude.
    Ah, ok. For numbers large enough to require me taking my shoes off, I try to repeat the calcs many times.. sometimes it works...

    jn

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