Speaker Wire Developments in last 10 years? Need advice.

[JohnMichael]

Let us compare wire to fine foods. I have a friend who can taste a dish and tell you the ingredients used in the preparation. I can enjoy the same dish but other than obvious ingredients have no idea what spices or herbs were used. We are able to agree if we like it.

My sense of hearing seems to be more acute than my sense of taste. I think we all have different abilities so it seems normal that some can hear differences in cables and some are not able. I would not argue with anyone who says they taste saffron in a dish.

[jneutron]

Absolutely. No do it yourselfer could possibly "make" a high performance cable like Valhalla and there's not much to talk about terminating a piece of Belden .

Perhaps most do it yourselfers. but not all.

jn

[jneutron]

Audio cables? I thought I made that very clear. Al poses real issues when used for conducting electricity. Only Cu, Ag, and Gold can be "trusted" but Cu has proven adequate in all cases.

Historically accurate for in the house use. The big problem was the combination of Al2O3 which is indeed non conductive, with connector hardware designed for use with copper wire. Aluminum has a TCE of 25.5 ppm/degree C, copper at 16.6 ppm/degree C.

However, pigtailing and the use of a flouride paste has solved those in the residential arena, the power company, as well as by those who use aluminum stabilized niobium titanium superconductors.

P.S. I love the trem "Audio Cable Design". This gives audio cables more gravitas than they deserve.

Perhaps..Perhaps you have taken your assertions a tad far as well.

From time to time I look back at my life to review what I have contributed to the world.

I too do that...sigh.

So what are you wire-folks doing to contribute to the world? I mean, besides spending time listening to wires.

For me, the list is long. But actually irrelevant to the discussion at hand. There's really no need to bolseter ones' self as an argumentative tool..

I think the subjects that I have mastered have carried me far further and provided me with far more satisfaction than your area of interest has provided you.

It is impossible to claim one's satisfaction is greater than another's as you have done. Please refrain.

This is another problem with Nay Sayers. All they do is read and most of them never even try and experiment for themselves which makes them sheep in the religion of nay sayers.

No. There are also people you classify as naysayers who attempt to understand why cables possibly could have an effect. Most of the explanations given just don't make the grade. The lack of a viable explanation certainly doesn't make it impossible, but most scientific types can't get past the fodder presented as science.

I approached some neural/hearing researchers about 10 years ago with a well constructed scientific explanation and test setup, they could not get past the foolish cable yaysayer/naysayer garbage.

The OP asked 2 things. If there were significant developments in the last 10 years, and if anyone thought he should upgrade his cables.

For IC's and PC's, there has been some significant gains in understandings. For speaker wires, it's a tad more difficult, but yes, some.

jn

[Hyfi]

No. There are also people you classify as naysayers who attempt to understand why cables possibly could have an effect. Most of the explanations given just don't make the grade. The lack of a viable explanation certainly doesn't make it impossible, but most scientific types can't get past the fodder presented as science.

I have no issues with nay sayers that have actually tried for themselves and just post that. My problem is when people who have never tried for themselves just start spouting off about what they have read and believe.

If a person who seriously believes that there are no differences in sound between ANY 2 cables jumps into a thread and claims that anyone who does think they hear a difference is an idiot, and they have never tried it themselves with a system transparent enough to display the differences, then I have a problem.

If the non believer chimes into a thread like this and says "from everything I have read, along with personal attempts with my own system, I cannot hear a difference and do not believe they exist" then that is an appropriate response, not that I am an idiot and have wasted all my money and so on.

Non belief is no less of a religion than those who do believe.

Again tho I will state that I have not played around with enough Speaker Cable to have a strong belief one way or the other but I do own ICs that alter the sound depending on the components connected to as well as where in the chain they reside.

You don't have to believe it, and maybe if I demonstrated it in my home you would not hear it. And that is fine too because at that point, you would have actually tried as opposed to just repeating whatever you have read and believed up to that point. Then you could post about your real world experience instead of quoting or paraphrasing what others have written, and a lot of times without actually trying it out first.

[jneutron]

You don't have to believe it, and maybe if I demonstrated it in my home you would not hear it. And that is fine too because at that point, you would have actually tried as opposed to just repeating whatever you have read and believed up to that point. Then you could post about your real world experience instead of quoting or paraphrasing what others have written, and a lot of times without actually trying it out first.

Is your use of the word "you" directed at me, or is it being used generically at those you classify as "naysayers"? A term I abhor btw, as well as that of yaysayer..

jn

[Poultrygeist]

BF Skinner would see operant conditioning at work here with predictable outcomes.

The negative behavior of spending large sums of money with the expectation of high reward ( positive reinforcer ) vs the negative reinforcer of no reward and loss of funds.

[JohnMichael]

BF Skinner would see operant conditioning at work here with predictable outcomes.

The negative behavior of spending large sums of money with the expectation of high reward ( positive reinforcer ) vs the negative reinforcer of no reward and loss of funds.

But the person buying the cable may not perceive the purchase as large sums of money. My AntiCables were $10 a foot pair. Or in my bi-wire case $20 a foot pair. My AntiCables cost $160 for the bi-wire cables. I also had the ability to return the cables if I was not happy. So my liking of the cables was not influenced by the purchase price. I have $2500 more reason to like my Krell S-300i. If I had a system worth $100,000 I might buy cables costing thousands of dollars.

Value is in the eye of the purchaser. Some friends do not understand my love of art and why I spend what I do but not Edvard Munch prices. Cars to me are A-B. I want basic transportation to take me from A to B. We all have to decide what is worth our money.

[Hyfi]

BF Skinner would see operant conditioning at work here with predictable outcomes.

The negative behavior of spending large sums of money with the expectation of high reward ( positive reinforcer ) vs the negative reinforcer of no reward and loss of funds.

2 different discussions

1- do the laws of diminishing returns kick in with cables? I say yes

2- can differences be heard between some cables? I say yes


But, not all of us spend ridiculous amounts on cables. I have $60 ICs that sound different with given components. I also have $350 ICs which cost me nothing so I have not wasted any money and I can enjoy the fact that most of my cables were well manufactured and terminated properly with good materials. What is so wrong with that given that I don't care to be a DIYer?

Over at AudioAfficianados, they are discussing the benefits of a pair of $28k cables. Do I think that's over the top? Yes but the people discussing them and purchasing them are apparently millionaires who also don't give a hoot about DIY and don't seem to mind spending their money on expensive cables. But why not when the rest of their setup is already in the plus $250K range.

You claiming that anyone not running a flea watt SET amp with OB or single driver speakers is wasting thier money is no different than me claiming everyone who spends more than $25 on a watch is too. But it's about more than that isn't it? It's called Personal Preference which cannot be regulated.

[Hyfi]

Is your use of the word "you" directed at me, or is it being used generically at those you classify as "naysayers"? A term I abhor btw, as well as that of yaysayer..

jn

Yes, it was a direct response to the section you responded to with quoted text from my previous post. I was responding to your reply to ME.

[jneutron]

Yes, it was a direct response to the section you responded to with quoted text from my previous post. I was responding to your reply to ME.

Ah, ok. It seemed as though you were classifying me as a naysayer.

You said"

You don't have to believe it, and maybe if I demonstrated it in my home you would not hear it. And that is fine too because at that point, you would have actually tried as opposed to just repeating whatever you have read and believed up to that point. Then you could post about your real world experience instead of quoting or paraphrasing what others have written, and a lot of times without actually trying it out first."

The point where you talk about quoting or paraphrasing doesn't apply to me, so that was where my confusion lies.

cheers,

jn

[Hyfi]

Ah, ok. It seemed as though you were classifying me as a naysayer.



The point where you talk about quoting or paraphrasing doesn't apply to me, so that was where my confusion lies.

cheers,

jn

From your responses, it does not imply you on one side of the fence or the other. In the off chance you were just doing what Smokey tried two weeks ago, I responded the way I did.

If you have tried rolling cables and never heard a difference, that qualifies you to say just that. And those that roll them and think they do hear differences, that qualifies them to say just that. But people who just read and repeat are not qualified to say anything but just that, that they have read somewhere bla bla bla and have never tried for themselves.

I understand the theories and the fact that cables not connected to anything measure a certain way. But I do not buy into those who say that there is no way any 2 cables can sound different when connected to different components.

I personally have just cured one of my systems of being bass-less and made the setup really enjoyable with the same single pair of ICs that made another system horrid and a 3rd setup lose what it had with better ICs.

Maybe I'm crazy but I'm the one who lives with and has to enjoy my systems. I would love to show/demonstrate to non believers (as opposed to naysayers) what I feel makes changes in my setup but have never had a taker to the offer and of course they are no even willing to try because it's not a scientifically based DBT. That tells me they are more afraid of what they might hear and cannot explain away with white papers than them not hearing anything different at all.

[jneutron]

In the off chance you were just doing what Smokey tried two weeks ago, I responded the way I did.

Ah, ok.

I was not aware of what he did.

I will repeat, IC's and PC's absolutely can affect a system, and that is based in solid engineering. Unfortunately, that engineering is young, esentially ten years or so old.

jn

[Hyfi]

Ah, ok.

I was not aware of what he did.

I will repeat, IC's and PC's absolutely can affect a system, and that is based in solid engineering. Unfortunately, that engineering is young, esentially ten years or so old.

jn

OK, sorry for the assumption.

He chimed in on a thread and started quoting from the NaySayers Bible without ever having any real world experience to go on. Just a read and repeat thing like a parrot, which in my view has no credibility unless same person actually has something more than reading to go on.

[E-Stat]

Perhaps most do it yourselfers. but not all.

I'd be very curious where you're gonna find the "raw cable" that looks anything like theirs

[E-Stat]

BF Skinner would see operant conditioning at work here with predictable outcomes.

Only for those who don't follow the normal approach for acquiring audio gear:

1. Listen to gear first using familiar settings (ideally your own) and familiar music
2. Make purchase following evaluation. Such includes considering cost vs. gain.

Perhaps you've have bad experiences before by reversing the order!

[Hyfi]

I'd be very curious where you're gonna find the "raw cable" that looks anything like theirs

isn't that just a flattened out extension cord?

[jneutron]

The pic didn't show up. It doesn't matter though.

For speaker wires, the only things that matter are distributed R, L, C, and length.

The effective dielectric constant, characteristic impedance, and propagation velocity can be derived from the first 4.

It is trivial to duplicate any cable out there using off the shelf materials. How it looks is of no concern. (well, let's neglect the eye candy thing).

And very few engineers out there can appreciate or understand what is actually happening when a cable is connecting a very low impedance amplifier to a variable impedance load using a wire of impedance significantly higher than the nominal of the speaker.

jn

[E-Stat]

I will repeat, IC's and PC's absolutely can affect a system, and that is based in solid engineering.

It is a shame that many evaluate cables in a vacuum attached to nothing merely by specs. They don't appreciate the interaction with other components and the radio and power environment in which they live.

Roger Russell's mantra of "It all sounds the same provided the resistance is low enough" doesn't acknowledge that reality. Inductance, capacitance and RF rejection matter, too.

[jneutron]

It is a shame that many evaluate cables in a vacuum attached to nothing merely by specs. They don't appreciate the interaction with other components and the radio and power environment in which they live.

Actually, it's not the test people's fault. It's the designers of the equipment.

Roger Russell's mantra of "It all sounds the same provided the resistance is low enough" doesn't acknowledge that reality. Inductance, capacitance and RF rejection matter, too.

I found it very worthwhile printing out a hard copy of his paper.

The recycle bin's about 6 feet away, I occasionally need practice.

jn

[E-Stat]

Actually, it's not the test people's fault. It's the designers of the equipment.

Equipment? A VOM? Capacitance meter? What does Fluke have to do with understanding the interaction of the capacitance of an interconnect to the ouput stage of a SACD player?

The funniest (actually saddest) assertions are those based upon implementing switch boxes for comparison - which totally alter the results! They worry about contact resistance and don't have a clue about measurable interactions. Frank Van Alstine is a pretty pragmatic guy who doesn't make utlra exotic gear but understands the concept quite well:

Duh

Feanor linked to one of Rod Elliott's pages about cabling that exhibited profound ignorance. Basically, he said you could compare cable audibility by splitting the output of a source using a Y-adapter into different inputs. Using my trusty capacitance meter, I find that doing so combines the capacitance of both cables at either end! Guess what? There's no difference! You just have to laugh at guys like this who have so little understanding of system interaction - much less introducing uncontrolled variables into their "scientific test".

[E-Stat]

The pic didn't show up. It doesn't matter though.

You must be logged in to view images uploaded to AR. Apparently, you've never seen Nordost cabling. Google "Nordost Valhalla images"

For speaker wires, the only things that matter are distributed R, L, C, and length.

That assertion is not supported by my experience (or that of a trusted reviewer in your neck of the woods) using almost identical cabling from a single company. In fact, the effective DC was slightly worse on the more revealing cable.

[JohnMichael]

isn't that just a flattened out extension cord?

No, there is much more to the design of the cable. Check out the Nordost Cable web site. You might be impressed by all the technology.

[jneutron]

Equipment? A VOM? Capacitance meter?

No. The audio equipment.

None are designed for EMC issues.

Apparently, you've never seen Nordost cabling.

Why would you say that? All I said was, I got a red x in a box where you linked a picture.

I've duplicated the valhalla.

That assertion is not supported by my experience (or that of a trusted reviewer in your neck of the woods) using almost identical cabling from a single company. In fact, the effective DC was slightly worse on the more revealing cable.

You disagree...then say "in fact"... then present information which agrees with me. You are confused.

Allow me to help you resolve your confusion...

I did not say that lower effective dielectric coefficient, or faster prop velocity was better. Nor, worse. But different.


What were the numbers for both cables?

jn

[emaidel]

Let us compare wire to fine foods. I have a friend who can taste a dish and tell you the ingredients used in the preparation. I can enjoy the same dish but other than obvious ingredients have no idea what spices or herbs were used. We are able to agree if we like it.

My sense of hearing seems to be more acute than my sense of taste. I think we all have different abilities so it seems normal that some can hear differences in cables and some are not able. I would not argue with anyone who says they taste saffron in a dish.

All of that was very well said, and pertinent to the beliefs of many AR members.

I have a friend who says that he can hardly tell the difference between Patron tequila (for an additional $1.75) and the house-brand junk a local Mexican restaurant uses in its Margaritas, yet claims to be "known to walk out of a restaurant that uses Hunt's ketchup instead of Heinz." Other than his ketchup comparison being a bit silly, he's basically just a cheapskate. Might that not be somewhat pertinent here?

I will never spend thousands of dollars on cables, not only because I'm retired and on a fixed income, but because, deep down inside, $3,600 for a single 1-meter cable stikes me as flat-out ridiculous. On the other hand, like you, I will spend hundreds (or have spent hundreds) of dollars on cables, and been thoroughly satisfied with what I've heard, with the exception of Audioquest Crystal speaker wire.

[Hyfi]

No, there is much more to the design of the cable. Check out the Nordost Cable web site. You might be impressed by all the technology.

Hopefully you realized I was being sarcastic, but it is a good read for the all cable is the same crowd.