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  1. #26
    Aging Smartass
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    This argument seems to crop up periodically, year after year. "Wire is wire," and "cables don't sound different" are statements made often, with which most of us at this site disagree, based on our own experiences.

    I'm often shocked at the high prices (in the thousands of dollars!) some cables demand, and have no intention of every trying out any such cable. On a more "down-to earth" scale, I've had many success stories when it came to replacing speaker wire, interconnects and power cords.

    The "bug" bit me in the late 80's when I replaced 14-guage zip cord with "Original" Monster Cable, and noticed a very significant improvment across the audio spectrum. Years later,I spent a small fortune (even at a substantial discount) for Audioquest "Crystal" solid core speaker wire: harsh, "in-your-face" and just plain awful, plus it was almost impossible to work with since it was so stiff. Monster Z-3 replaced that cable, and I've been delighted with it since, though I suspect there are still better cables out there, but at a price.

    The largest single difference any cable made in terms of improvements was the AlphaCore TQ-2 solid silver interconncects I used from my SACD player to my preamp. I believe at the time they cost $275 for a 1-meter pair, but rarely was money better spent.

    Audioquest has an arrangement with Audio Advisor for an interconnect called "Black Mamba II" which, for the price, is certainly worth trying. It sure improved the sound of my system by replacing Monster M-1000i, which sounded pretty good to begin with.

    Then, there are the Pangea power cords, all of which cost a fraction of most "audiophile" power cords, and all of which made BIG differences in my system.

    All that said, I'm sure several will still say I haven't a clue what I'm talking about. Be that as it may, others who,like me, have dabbled in this area, know what we hear. Would replacing my power amp and pre-amp with new units, costing about the same as my car make a difference? I'm sure they would, but expenditures of that nature are out of the question. If I can spend a few hundred dollars (or less) and hear an improvement, that, to me, is an "upgrade" well worth the effort, and deserves to be recommended to others.

  2. #27
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    It's not a waste of time responding to a novice asking an honest question regarding the worthiness of speaker wire upgrades. His mind has not been made up yet.

    Offering a different opinion is not nasty but absolutely necessary for the life of any forum. If we were all like minded how much discussion, education or traffic would there be?

    You won't find a cable forum on AC, AK or DIY Audio and for good reason.

  3. #28
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poultrygeist View Post
    You won't find a cable forum on AC, AK or DIY Audio and for good reason.
    Absolutely. No do it yourselfer could possibly "make" a high performance cable like Valhalla and there's not much to talk about terminating a piece of Belden .

  4. #29
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poultrygeist View Post
    It's not a waste of time responding to a novice asking an honest question regarding the worthiness of speaker wire upgrades. His mind has not been made up yet.

    Offering a different opinion is not nasty but absolutely necessary for the life of any forum. If we were all like minded how much discussion, education or traffic would there be?

    You won't find a cable forum on AC, AK or DIY Audio and for good reason.
    I agree. Different opinions are absolutely necessary for discussion. However, the sarcasm seemed to be getting a bit on the high side. I know that things have gotten out of hand on this forum in the past and I just want to keep things pleasant.

  5. #30
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    Hey, FA, I will make this straight forward so that YOU can understand.

    Many inexperienced people visit here looking for information.

    Why should they only be exposed to one side of the story? This may cause them to spend a lot of money that they will later wish they still had. Maybe you do not care about this.

    And WHY do you concern yourself? You cannot handle conflicting viewpoints?

  6. #31
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash View Post
    Hey, FA, I will make this straight forward so that YOU can understand.
    This is exactly what I was referring to. Why speak down to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mash
    And WHY do you concern yourself? You cannot handle conflicting viewpoints?
    Because I'm a moderator on this site and things were looking to me like they were about to take a nasty turn. I was trying to keep that from happening. That's all.

  7. #32
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    I am glad you are a moderator here, FA. Nasty turns are in the eye of the beholder. I consider it nasty to suggest to someone that they are not entitled to their opinions.

    So someone "hears a difference" with wires? We cannot demonstrate that. It simply takes TOO LONG to change out ALL of the wires. Acoustic memories of the unfamiliar are simply too short.

    At best one can use one set of wires on one channel and a different set on the other channel. Then pan back and forth to compare. To my knowlege no one has ever performed this test and demonstrated it to others of both camps. And it is an easy test.

    I have experience with things electrical, including generators when I made decisions that involved sums running to more than 7 figures. And no one was looking over my shoulder. The company had full faith and confidence in my judgement... and so do I.

  8. #33
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    E-Stat, AC and AK are not DIY forums and you know that as well as the reason this topic deserves no forum of it's own. DIY Audio wouldn't waste their bandwidth.

  9. #34
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    Ummmm.... Pg.... Some discussions or threads on AK are DIY. But certainly not most of them.

    I will admit that I have not noticed the "audibility of wires" being beaten to death on AK. Maybe we have missed those exchanges?

  10. #35
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    My 2 cents worth is that expensive cables are not money well spend for people with mid-level systems -- these people, including me, are better off putting the money towards improving other components.

    What's expensive? JohnMichael says $250 isn't expensive. "Expensive" is relative, but to me that's a lot money. A 3 foot pair of Blue Jeans Cable BJC LC-1 single-ended interconnects is $31.25; anything more is expensive to me.

    I don't say all cables sound the same; I do say that the differences are typically extremely small relative to almost any other component you can buy, and that includes things like tubes or opamps.

  11. #36
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    Certainly cables/wires are discussed but unlike this forum there is no specific section devoted to that discussion.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by emaidel View Post
    This argument seems to crop up periodically, year after year. "Wire is wire," and "cables don't sound different" are statements made often, with which most of us at this site disagree, based on our own experiences.

    The largest single difference any cable made in terms of improvements was the AlphaCore TQ-2 solid silver interconncects I used from my SACD player to my preamp. I believe at the time they cost $275 for a 1-meter pair, but rarely was money better spent.

    Emaidel are your TQ2 silver? I have the copper TQ2 and I was using them between the Marantz SA8001 and Krell S-300i. They are a good match when I use the RS6 speakers with their peaky treble but they soften the sound too much when I am using the OML1's. I was thinking I might like the TQ2 silver since I am listening exclusively to the OML1's.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
    Digital
    Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD/cd SID mat, Marantz SA 8001
    Int. Amp Krell S-300i
    Speaker
    Monitor Audio RS6
    Cables
    AQ SPKR and AQ XLR and IC

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post

    What's expensive? JohnMichael says $250 isn't expensive. "Expensive" is relative, but to me that's a lot money. A 3 foot pair of Blue Jeans Cable BJC LC-1 single-ended interconnects is $31.25; anything more is expensive to me.

    .

    When I mention that $250 is not a lot for speaker cables I am taking into account how expensive some cables are. I would never pay more for cables than I would for a car. I have some cables that are many years old and still doing their job. I wonder what it costs to replace a set of tubes knowing they have a limited life.

    I think we all need to spend our money in how we see fit in ways that bring us joy. I as an in home caregiver do not make much money. I do the work because I am good at it and I am rewarded in other ways. I certainly do not have the money to buy something that is not a benefit.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
    Digital
    Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD/cd SID mat, Marantz SA 8001
    Int. Amp Krell S-300i
    Speaker
    Monitor Audio RS6
    Cables
    AQ SPKR and AQ XLR and IC

  14. #39
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    I replaced the power tubes in a Jolida.... 4 Russian tubes at $27 each.

    I bought 16 power tubes for my Futterman amps for $250.

    Other tubes cost other amounts.

    How long a set of tubes lasts depends on the design of the amp or preamp. Or whether the amps owner believes (for some silly reason) that the amp should be left on all the time.

    The power tubes in my Futterman monoblocks worked fine for 13 years of heavy use. The power tubes were replaced when bias auto-adjustment circuits were installed.... just because.

    I can garantee one thing.

    Futtermans driving Tympani will make an improvement over other amps that absolutely dwarfs any improvement that any wire could ever provide.

  15. #40
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    The conductors in wires should last forever unless they become damaged.

    The insulation should last forever in a home enviroment. The voltages are too low to stress the insulation. Other enviroments may lead to damage from, for example, sun exposure or petrochemical attack.

    Generators must periodically be rewound to replace the insulation, which is stressed and thereby worn out by the high voltages (i.e. 14,400V).

  16. #41
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    During the last three years of daily use I've had two tubes give up the ghost. One was a Western Electric 2C51 I bought used and the other a brand new JJ EL-84. Money wise that comes to less than $50.

    For the price of entry level boutique cables I can buy a matched pair of Shuguang 2a3 Black Treasures plus a quad of NOS triple micas. With those tubes no imagination is required.

  17. #42
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    I am trying to remember a cable Michael Fremer reviewed for Stereophile. It was a fiber optic cable with a transmitter at one end and a receiver at the other end. The signal would be converted to pulses of light that travels down the fiber optic cable to the receiver where it becomes an audio signal again.

    He reviewed it positively but he took a lot of heat. Many found it not up to high fidelity standards. In his system to his ears it sounded good. He did announce he would not use it to review equipment but only for his pleasure.

    Other odd technologies were speaker cables with water jackets.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
    Digital
    Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD/cd SID mat, Marantz SA 8001
    Int. Amp Krell S-300i
    Speaker
    Monitor Audio RS6
    Cables
    AQ SPKR and AQ XLR and IC

  18. #43
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    Complication is often best avoided.

    Balanced XLR interconnects are probably best if your equipment supports them. These are what I use in the kitchen because I have a 50 ft run and use Mackies. XLR adaptors work but they add expense and bother.

    I only have one SS amp I consider competitive with tubes but I still prefer tubie amps with planars.

  19. #44
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Since this thread is "Speaker Wire Developments in last 10 years?" I am going to visit some cable sites to see if I have missed anything. I want to read why JPL uses aluminum for their conductors. Crystal Labs is another solid core cable that if memory serves they use gold to fill in any micropores in the silver. Van den Hul used carbon conductors in some of their cables. Many of the cables mentioned are way out of my budget.
    JohnMichael
    Vinyl Rega Planar 2, Incognito rewire, Deepgroove subplatter, ceramic bearing, Michell Technoweight, Rega 24V motor, TTPSU, FunkFirm Achroplat platter, Michael Lim top and bottom braces, 2 Rega feet and one RDC cones. Grado Sonata, Moon 110 LP phono.
    Digital
    Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD/cd SID mat, Marantz SA 8001
    Int. Amp Krell S-300i
    Speaker
    Monitor Audio RS6
    Cables
    AQ SPKR and AQ XLR and IC

  20. #45
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    AL is subject to oxidation. Some houses burned because it was once fashionable to use AL wires in houses and then those wires oxidized leading to fires. Not good. Also AL is a fatigue-failure pig. Avoid it.

    "...use gold to fill in any micropores in the silver" This is a scream.

    Carbon conductors? Oh, geeze. Carbon has high resistance w/r/t Cu.....

    Honestly, JM, give this a rest. Stop beating yourself.

  21. #46
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash View Post
    AL is subject to oxidation.
    Not when alloyed with other materials as is the case here. Ever seen a rusted airliner or military aircraft exterior - even those that are fifty years old?

  22. #47
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    Geeze, E-S, get with the program.

    I did not, nor did I ever, say anytrhing about RUSTED aluminum. Aluminum does NOT rust, by definition.

    Only FERROUS metals rust. Understand???????

    I said Aluminum OXIDIZES. Which cannot be observed from a distance. ANY distance. And this is the reason Boeing is switching from using AL skins to GpE skins on their turbofan transports. Are you up to speed, yet?

    Really, E-S, you should better understand what you REALLY understand, and what you do not understand.

    I know this stuff cold.,

    Alloy with Al? Tell me how.

  23. #48
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash View Post
    And this is the reason Boeing is switching from using AL skins to GpE skins on their turbofan transports. Are you up to speed, yet?
    I referenced aircraft fuselages. Are you paying attention?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mash View Post
    Alloy with Al? Tell me how.
    Ask Joe Skubinski.

  24. #49
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    I was referencing aircraft fuselages.... and wings, too.

    Joe is not here, so YOU will have to do.

  25. #50
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash View Post
    I was referencing aircraft fuselages.... and wings, too.
    Kindly reference your acronym.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mash View Post
    IJoe is not here, so YOU will have to do.
    I can't speak any plainer.

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