Mapleshade ?

[wiseburro]

I will have to get back to you later on that one, Mike. Dinner is calling.

[skeptic]

Not true. All circuit protective devices have a time current trip curve. The 10,000 amp rating printed on the circuit breaker in your house is the MINIMUM which the manufacturer guarantees that circuit breaker can withstand before it explodes or in some other way fails to perform its function on a dead short on its load side. That does not mean that you will draw 10,000 amps in a dead short. The actual amount will depend on a complex analysis of the voltages of the transformer, its KVA rating, it's impedence, and the impedence of the feeders and branch circuit conductors involved in the short. It can even include upstream segments of the circuit from the substation to the transformer if that is the limiting factor. This is called a short circuit analysis. When a transformer makes even greater current available, circuit breakers having the same long term current rating such as 20 amps, 30 amps, 100 amps etc. can be supplied to withstand 25,000 amps, 50,000 amps, 100,000 amps, and even 200,000 amps. These are invariably reserved for industrial applications as they are considerably more expensive. In your house, the engineers who designed your power distribution system have selected equipment which deliberately cannot supply as much as 10,000 amps on a dead short. If he didn't you'd be at risk.

Much more than just a theory, how well an engineer applies these principles to the selection of a design can be a matter of life and death. Some years back, I was responsible for accepting a consultant's electrical design for a project to install an outdoor chiller plant. The circuit breakers for the chillers were specified at 50,000 AIC (short circuit rating.) This outdoor plant was only a few feet from the utility transformer of 2000KVA with about a 5.75% impedence (that's how industrial transformer impedences are rated.) After consulting with one of my collegues, I decided to change the order to 100,000 AIC breakers. I was reminded that in all moving magnetic machinery, that the chiller motors could act as generators in a short circuit and actually increase the current available on some phases beyond the transformer's short circuit capability and clearly beyond the circuit breaker's rating. About two years later, apparantly operating at full capacity for an extended period, an internal failure in the main incoming (factory installed) cable raceway in one of the chillers caused all of the cable insulation to melt resulting in a dead short right on the load side of the circuit breaker. The circuit breaker tripped, a small fire broke out which was extinguished by a plant shift supervisor, and the manufacturer rebuilt the chiller at no cost. Had the breaker exploded, it might have taken out half the town for a day or two. It might have injured or killed someone in its vacinity as well.

[skeptic]

I don't know about you John, but I'm in no mood to train him.

[wiseburro]

Your type of wording and approach to consumerism can be applied to all the get well, weight loss, talking to the dead, penis enlargement, pyramid power, voodoo medicine, hair growth, Nigerian email, lottery, pyramid schemes and weasel and snake oil products on the face of the earth.

Here is a list of issues to beware of when you might be in the midst of parting with your hard-earned money. There are techniques used by the scammers:

1. Money back guarantee. This is a method of gaining trust. How can you lose? If you don't like it, return it for a full refund. That's because scammers know that most people will not go through the hassle of returning a product. It's human nature. And besides, a lot of the time you cannot return the product if it is working correctly. Go ahead and try to prove that your new power cord is not up to snuff or is defective.

2. Act like the little guy. This concept involves convincing people that the scammers are the David as opposed to the Goliath of the established scientific community. They show how scientists and skeptics are on their backs never giving them a chance. Everybody likes to root for the underdog, right?

3. Confidence or confiding. Again this is human nature at work. You are led to believe that you are exposed to something that most people are not or would not understand. This gives you a feeling of superiority. You are told you have special hearing and this is why other skeptics cannot hear the improvements.

4. Claims of recommendations. This is one is easy to see. Let's go read the reviews of all the people who love the product. The more reviews, the more legitimate the product appears.

5. The cost of the product is excessive. Again it is human nature to assume more expensive means better not to mention the prestige.

6. Avoid blind comparisons. Why would a product not want to be compared to another product or a gold standard?

7. Associate the product with reputable ideas. The goal here to try to form a connection between the product and a known scientific property or law. This link is easy to discredit by scientific types unless it is worded vaguely.

8. Don't make a direct claim. Scammers will rarely make a direct statement of product superiority. Instead, there will be inferences planted which would lead the consumer to make an inaccurate conclusion.

9. Play on people's desires. This is one of the most powerful weapons of a scammers. Usually the consumer already has the will to believe something to be true and thus it is not a long trip to convince him. The emotions get eleveated when in the process of believing and this will cause the consumer to miss the normal warning signs.

The next time you want to buy and new and improved audio product, apply the previous list and see how much of it applies.

That surely is a great list for the consumer to watch out for potential scams.

While I certainly respect what Mapleshade does, and Pierre Sprey's dedication to enhacing musical enjoyment, I have to state that I currently only have 5 recordings, and a set of HEAVYHAT VIBE KILLERS in my system at this time. I have tried a couple of his cables, and I have found others that work better for my system. Although I do have a friend or two that do employ his cables with great success. System synergy and delicacy of his product, being so thin and fragile, have been the biggest reasons that I am not using his cables. His return policy is first rate. Never had an issue with returning product for a full refund.

As you pointed out so well in your opening paragraph, there are a lot of people making claims from across the spectrum. My statement wasn't so much geared towards Mapleshade's claims but the fact that many people do realize a benefit from after market powercords; across the globe, spanning various different interests. To assume that each and everyone of these people is being duped is intellectually dubious. You can't ignore that. The swath is too large statisically speaking.

The market ulimately decides. You can make a bogus claim for only so long until the buying public rejects the product. Even in the most egregious examples of the placebo effect it is around 50% in medical tetsing, which DBT was truly designed for..

Back to Mapleshade. It follows a few of the rules that you might be suspect of, but it also counters a few of those. I have never seen Mapleshade advertise,...anywhere. If a person finds out about Mapleshade they find out about through word of mouth. In that instance I guess you could really argue that he isn't in it for the money because rule No.2 of business is advertise, advertise, advertise. Thse cost certainly isn't excessive comparitively.

His marketing skills are definitely not the greatest. He pretty much says it like he has experienced it, and I'm not gonna disagree, but I don't think he offers the end all.


While you certainly have the right to be skeptical, I don't think anything stated or proved in this thread is worthy of the libelous attacks that have gone on have any merit in fact, at least up to this point.

[wiseburro]

I don't know about you John, but I'm in no mood to train him.

So, was I correct in thinking that you have no experience in the audible differences amongst different powercords?

[skeptic]

You're right, they all sound the same to me.

[wiseburro]

You're right, they all sound the same to me.

That's cool. At least you have tried a few for yourself.

[wiseburro]

You're right, they all sound the same to me.

That is a very interesting comment for someone that claims, "That strongly suggests to me that the need for it in a consumer audio amplifier is completely bogus."

They ALL sound the same to you? Are you telling us that you have tried a few aftermarket powercords? You wouldn't be making an unsubstantiated claim now, would you?


First, you say I'm right that you have no experience, then you claim that they all sound the same. lol

I would hate to suggest that you are lying, but your statements don't add up.


Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in. Why do you think that exists?

[mtrycraft]

His evidence is the the people that buy his products and enjoy them. That is all the evidence he needs.

Great. Just confirms that I am psychic. I knew exactely what you will reply. That is all the evidence I need. Thanks. Now I am a certified psychic.

Gullible audiophiles? Far too many folks have enjoyed his products for it to be considered nonsense.

I see. So, audio is exempt from bs, hyped voodoo products being enjoyed by many audiophiles? But that is exactely the only way he can sell them, based on testimonials, not science. How is that any different from anything else bogus in consumer marketplace? It isn't. He is making snake oil claims for his productes unsupporetd by data.

As for the dbt nonsense.

Nonsense? You think your highly praised engineer would call DBT listeing nonsese? If that is the case, he has certainly graduated as to his qualifications in the field of audio science.

[b]That is your standard,[b]

No, that is the real audio industry standard, and then some.

which you have every right to have, but it by no means invalidates his products.

It only invalidates the claims he makes for audibility of wires. After that, he can claim anything he likes that is not testable but an issue of preferences.


[b] Listen to any of their recordings and they are leading edge as far as sonic reproduction. [b]

Certainly not because he uses those voodoo products.

He employs his 'nonsense' as you put it it into every recordeing and they sound magnificant.

Well, whether his recording sounds as they do because of his snake oil products is yet to be demonstrated. I made no claims to his recording talents other than being great but that has no bearing on his other voodoo products he is selling.

[mtrycraft]

My statement wasn't so much geared towards Mapleshade's claims but the fact that many people do realize a benefit from after market powercords; across the globe, spanning various different interests. To assume that each and everyone of these people is being duped is intellectually dubious. You can't ignore that. The swath is too large statisically speaking.

Then, God must also exist as the number of believers is up around 90%? That does it for me, it must be factual.
I wonder how many around the world believe in psycics? I bet much more than believe in those mystic power cords, right?


The market ulimately decides. You can make a bogus claim for only so long until the buying public rejects the product.

Oh, really? How long has homiopathic medicines been around? Over 100 years and going stronger every year. What a statement on human nature, believe in mysticism more than in science.

Actually, that is what they are counting on as then they have a winner. Human gullibility will guarantee that.

Even in the most egregious examples of the placebo effect it is around 50% in medical tetsing, which DBT was truly designed for..

What is this?

[mtrycraft]

From the sound of it I think you have no experience with the audal effects of different powercords.

It is obvious you don't either, nor does the beloved designer at Mapleshade. Specualtions a plenty though. Neither of you have offered any evidence outside of tall tales by audiophiles. Far from evidence.

[mtrycraft]

You have not one shred of 'evidence' to back up that ludicrous assault on Sprey's character or his products. Shame on you.

You are touting your opinions about powercords, and nothing more.

Why do skeptics always have to rely in the histrionics of insult?

Excuse me? Sprey's evidence can be found where exactely? Don't offer testimonials that is worthless garbage.

[mtrycraft]

F-16 origins

http://www.airtoaircombat.com/background.asp?id=8&bg=27

Claims without evidence
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cab...ges/93478.html

Is this the same person?
http://www.namebase.org/main3/Pierre-M-Sprey.html

How about him?
http://www.oberlin.edu/newserv/stori...y_release.html

[Beckman]

Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in.

? Are there any high end audio power cord design engineers out there that can explain how a three foot cord affects a 60 Hz 120 VAC signal in a way such that it improves the sound quality of anything.


(I don't expect anyone to ever reply)

[jneutron]

? Are there any high end audio power cord design engineers out there that can explain how a three foot cord affects a 60 Hz 120 VAC signal in a way such that it improves the sound quality of anything.

(I don't expect anyone to ever reply)

Weeeelll then...you were incorrect..

(you did say anyone..) you lose...:-)

I can tell you how to make it worse..

Take a 3 foot cord.

Strip the outer insulating jacket

untwist it

take the hot conductor, form a tight coil with it.

take the neutral, form another coil.

put one over the other so that the wires are counter to each other...IOW, so that when current is drawn, the solenoidal field is enhanced, not cancelled.

Position that coil so that it produces the most loop current within the amp/source/ic loop.

Now, watch the loop current as the amp draws haversines.

Now imagine that it couples proportional to frequency. Then introduce a coupla hundred milliamps of 5Khz sine into the power cord.

Cheers, John

[woodman]

Weeeelll then...you were incorrect..

(you did say anyone..) you lose...:-)

I can tell you how to make it worse..

Take a 3 foot cord.

Strip the outer insulating jacket

untwist it

take the hot conductor, form a tight coil with it.

take the neutral, form another coil.

put one over the other so that the wires are counter to each other...IOW, so that when current is drawn, the solenoidal field is enhanced, not cancelled.

Position that coil so that it produces the most loop current within the amp/source/ic loop.

Now, watch the loop current as the amp draws haversines.

Now imagine that it couples proportional to frequency. Then introduce a coupla hundred milliamps of 5Khz sine into the power cord.

Cheers, John

John, your post while it was both entertaining and enlightening (I suppose) failed completely to address Beckman"s request for someone - anyone - to explain just how a power cord can affect the incoming A-C power in such a way that it will improve the sound quality of the device it is connected to.

If you will address THAT question, I'm quite sure that your answer will reinforce mine ... that it simply cannot! You probably have a more curious, investigative scientific mind than mine and therefore are willing to consider most any proposal - no matter how unlikely - as still being within the realms of possibility and worthy of investigation. But I for one, am fed up to the very gills with people touting power cords and "hospital-grade" receptacles and power "conditioners" as providing HUGE improvements to their audio (and video) systems. In my experience (of nearly 60 years of working with consumer electronics), such claims simply have no basis in fact. Such things as "ground-loop" problems could be improved upon if not completely eliminated by properly designed power line "accessories", but that would not provide the sorts of audible improvements to the sonic quality that the audio CONEs claim.

[mtrycraft]

It is easy to make the mistake of assuming that because a guy is technically savvy about one thing, maybe even a genius, he is automatically savvy about everything else technical. Whether its John Curl, an acknowledged fine designer of audio amplifiers embarrassing himself about the quantum physics of electrical conductivity in wires or a guy named Lawrence N. who was an expert at using an Eximer Laser but didn't know beans about chemistry and insisted on installing normal carbon steel tubing and ductwork for the fluorine supply and discharge because his department didn't have a sufficient budget for stainless steel, many people blindly believe in them. The safety guy who sat mute at the meeting because he had a personal war with my division manager later admitted that in a similar installation, a small leak had done a quarter of a million dollars in damage over a weekend in another lab that another scientist had built the same way.

I don't know what role this guy played in the design of electrical control systems in high performance aircraft and these may have been low voltage power limited systems anyway, but extrapolating to the design he is marketing for a 120 volt 15 amp power cord makes me feel he has gone way out beyond his depth. It makes me suspect he was a technician who became an audio tinkerer, not an engineer. I don't think that even Jon Risch would ever propose anything like this.

BTW, to RGA who wants to know why I won't post at AA anymore, the last time I saw something this dangerous was a DIY posting at cable asylum for a power cord made out of coax and another using ferrite beads creating high impedence grounds. The guy who built monster speaker cables weaving 10,000 pairs of cat 5 telephone wire together and blew up his amplifier (I say he built a giant capacitor which sent it into spontaneous ultrasonic oscillation) didn't inspire any confidence either. Some of their proposed home brew electrical wiring projects for their houses were nightmares too. Scary.

Read my input on this- Pierre Sprey- WHO IS HE.
I have some links from a google search, including the F16 story.
Not to worry. It doesn't look like he designed an inch of that aircraft from reading the history where he is mentioned only once as to his position. He was in the Pentagon assistant somebody to sec def. He may have been instrumental in policy and defense needs of the F16 but actual design of the aircraft, I seriously doubt that, not from any of the links found.

[mtrycraft]

So, was I correct in thinking that you have no experience in the audible differences amongst different powercords?

You have any evidence that any of them have an audible sound to it? Don't try too hard looking. There is no evidence, zero. Neither does Pierre has it.
So, what is there to listen to?

[mtrycraft]

try this

http://forums.audioreview.com/showth...38601#poststop

and the F16 link. He is mentioned but once there. A policy wonk?

[skeptic]

Once again it is impossible to find anyone who has performed a fair test of any power cords or even has a suitable setup to conduct such a test. As I said in another posting, the only listening test I would now consider fair to even show evidence of a role any cables would play is not wire A against wire B but wire A against a shunt. DBT of course. If I were to set one up, I'd use make before break relays just the way I would with speaker cables. But then what do I know. PC Tower says engineers are too stupid to set up and conduct DBTs. So who is smart enough, clever enough, truthful enough, fair, trustworthy, decent, loves god and country enough to do the job? Lawyers.

[pctower]

You have not one shred of 'evidence' to back up that ludicrous assault on Sprey's character or his products. Shame on you.

You are touting your opinions about powercords, and nothing more.

Why do skeptics always have to rely in the histrionics of insult?

Why do skeptics always have to rely in the histrionics of insult?

The extremists on both sides revel in insult. They have nothing better to do than hang out on audio boards and berate those with whom they disagree in a vain effort to convince themselves they are better than other people.

They have no friends (who would possibly want to spend more than 30 seconds around one of these people) and no life. The only purpose they serve is to provide entertainment for the rest of us.

[skeptic]

Does that include you Phil? Here's some of what you said on the subject in your post "Matter of perspective" barely a month ago. Stenographer, could you read back the relavent portions of Mr. Tower's testimony?;

"My post that started this thread was not intended to be taken seriously. I was just trying to jerk some chains for the fun of it. I consider it good natured humor. Others think I'm just being a total ass."

"If people stop taking the bait I'll probably get bored and stop. Of course that would be the final nail in the coffin for this cadaver of an audio board (I learned how to spell "cadaver" in responding to RL so I just had to use it one more is a real yawner"

"I find it interesting that there is extensive discussion of the New York High End show over at AA, but not a single mention of it that I have found here at AR.

For better or worse, over here it's the Best Buy crowd - over there they have actually listened to one or more high end systems."

I think you have described youself to a tee in your current post about histrionics and insults.

Your witness.

(I may have been watching a little to much Law and Order on TNT.)

[jneutron]

John, your post while it was both entertaining and enlightening (I suppose) failed completely to address Beckman"s request for someone - anyone - to explain just how a power cord can affect the incoming A-C power in such a way that it will improve the sound quality of the device it is connected to..

If you think that my post was entertaining, then we have to talk....:-)

You are correct, I did not answer the question directly.

However, to consider whether a power cord can improve sound also requires considering the opposite side of the coin...that it can make the sound worse..

My extreme example, that of re-forming the power cord into a multiple turn transformer that is coupled to the grounding loop, is just a rather visible statement that I can figure out how to make it worse..

Once that fact has been established, the mechanism is a reality..and, knowing that reality, real power cords can be tested for the same effect.

The only significant difference between a real power cord and my contrived example, is the turns ratio..I have specified perhaps 10 to 15 turns, whereas a real cord will have in effect, approximately 1/2 turn for a twisted run, or 1 turn for a parallel conductor cord.

Since the transfer function of this configuration,when current fed, is proportional to the frequency, this provides a real strong coupling coefficient for frequencies that are in the kilohertz range...

So, if you put together a system and get some hum, either 60, 180, or 300 hz, what do you think will happen to the sound when your amp draws power?

If the cordage configuration is good enough that hum is just inaudible for zero draw, and then you draw a kilowatt from the amp cord, what happens to the sound??

If you will address THAT question, I'm quite sure that your answer will reinforce mine ... that it simply cannot!..

I did, but from the other direction..

I concur with you that a lot of the snake oil needs to be given a dirt nap. That is why I'm applying engineering to the problem..a small contribution, of course, but in the right direction, IMHO.

Cheers, John

[skeptic]

So then if I understand you correctly the only improvement we can expect from changing power cords is a decrease in hum and noise assuming that at least some hum and noise was the result of the power cord in the first place and not all due to other causes. Of course there are some people who would argue that even noise and hum from power cords below the threshold of human hearing will affect what we can hear by introducing some sort of audible distortion which cannot be measured. That is their perpetual arguement. They know what they hear and there is nothing anyone can say to prove otherwise. Of course they will not submit to a DBT or cite one to prove their assertion. In fact, at Cable Asylum where some of the money which funds that site is supplied by people who make and sell cables, the topic is not open for discussion and if you persist in trying, you will be thrown out. Their owner Rod proposed a mission statement which said "only positive experiences" with cables would be open for discussion. Now why would anyone want to go to a place like that? For Jon Risch, it's paradise. This self appointed tin pot god is mad with power. Mad I tell you, MAD, MAD, MAD!!!!!! Hey Phil, do you still go there? Do they still ignore you?

[jneutron]

So then if I understand you correctly the only improvement we can expect from changing power cords is a decrease in hum and noise assuming that at least some hum and noise was the result of the power cord in the first place and not all due to other causes. ?

No, you do not understand me correctly...I apologize for my inadequate explanation..

I am saying that should hum be generated in the input loop by the current draw of the amplifier, then when the amplifier is drawing much more power in response to a music signal, that will cause the hum at the input to increase.. Very large hum component will result in a modulated sound (we've all had that experience)..

If the hum is below hearing, as most of our systems are (if it isn't, we tend to fix it somehow or run the sytem over with the car), then consider:

1kW watt total amp...10 ampere sine draw at full power.., actual of say, 8 amps 60 hz, 1 amp 180hz, .5 at 300, .1 at 420 hz. (totally fictional numbers...run with me here)..Don't forget, coupling scales with frequency.

No input, the amp is drawing little power, say, 100 mA from the line (10 watts)..power cord spectra scaled down accordingly, 1/100 th of full out values..

While quiescent, no hum...it's juuuust below threshold..

Now, music...amp draws full, hum is now 100 times larger..no longer below threshold, but, most likely masked by the sound emanating from the speaker...Or, is it masked?

That's the big question..

And, if the pc loop is providing a conduit for it's draw to affect the input, which amps do not couple it's output signal to the line cord..Mil spec testing procedures are designed to look for that, as are lots of pro style equip designers, but how many amp manu's do? Electrolytic caps have half their value at 20Khz, due to reactive de-coupling of the dielectric..and nobody concerns themselves with supply geometric coupling..why, it's not been considered..

Their owner Rod proposed a mission statement which said "only positive experiences" with cables would be open for discussion. Now why would anyone want to go to a place like that? For Jon Risch, it's paradise. This self appointed tin pot god is mad with power. Mad I tell you, MAD, MAD, MAD!!!!!! Hey Phil, do you still go there? Do they still ignore you?

I have no facts with which I can counter your argument..I've looked, but to no avail...without any alternative information, I am forced to agree with you..or, at the least, not disagree with you there.

As for Phil posting there: yes, he on occasion does..but, as he provides over there the exact same message you are giving here, what do you think they do?

Cheers, John