Mapleshade ?

[wiseburro]

You're right, they all sound the same to me.

That is a very interesting comment for someone that claims, "That strongly suggests to me that the need for it in a consumer audio amplifier is completely bogus."

They ALL sound the same to you? Are you telling us that you have tried a few aftermarket powercords? You wouldn't be making an unsubstantiated claim now, would you?


First, you say I'm right that you have no experience, then you claim that they all sound the same. lol

I would hate to suggest that you are lying, but your statements don't add up.


Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in. Why do you think that exists?

[Beckman]

Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in.

? Are there any high end audio power cord design engineers out there that can explain how a three foot cord affects a 60 Hz 120 VAC signal in a way such that it improves the sound quality of anything.


(I don't expect anyone to ever reply)

[jneutron]

? Are there any high end audio power cord design engineers out there that can explain how a three foot cord affects a 60 Hz 120 VAC signal in a way such that it improves the sound quality of anything.

(I don't expect anyone to ever reply)

Weeeelll then...you were incorrect..

(you did say anyone..) you lose...:-)

I can tell you how to make it worse..

Take a 3 foot cord.

Strip the outer insulating jacket

untwist it

take the hot conductor, form a tight coil with it.

take the neutral, form another coil.

put one over the other so that the wires are counter to each other...IOW, so that when current is drawn, the solenoidal field is enhanced, not cancelled.

Position that coil so that it produces the most loop current within the amp/source/ic loop.

Now, watch the loop current as the amp draws haversines.

Now imagine that it couples proportional to frequency. Then introduce a coupla hundred milliamps of 5Khz sine into the power cord.

Cheers, John

[woodman]

Weeeelll then...you were incorrect..

(you did say anyone..) you lose...:-)

I can tell you how to make it worse..

Take a 3 foot cord.

Strip the outer insulating jacket

untwist it

take the hot conductor, form a tight coil with it.

take the neutral, form another coil.

put one over the other so that the wires are counter to each other...IOW, so that when current is drawn, the solenoidal field is enhanced, not cancelled.

Position that coil so that it produces the most loop current within the amp/source/ic loop.

Now, watch the loop current as the amp draws haversines.

Now imagine that it couples proportional to frequency. Then introduce a coupla hundred milliamps of 5Khz sine into the power cord.

Cheers, John

John, your post while it was both entertaining and enlightening (I suppose) failed completely to address Beckman"s request for someone - anyone - to explain just how a power cord can affect the incoming A-C power in such a way that it will improve the sound quality of the device it is connected to.

If you will address THAT question, I'm quite sure that your answer will reinforce mine ... that it simply cannot! You probably have a more curious, investigative scientific mind than mine and therefore are willing to consider most any proposal - no matter how unlikely - as still being within the realms of possibility and worthy of investigation. But I for one, am fed up to the very gills with people touting power cords and "hospital-grade" receptacles and power "conditioners" as providing HUGE improvements to their audio (and video) systems. In my experience (of nearly 60 years of working with consumer electronics), such claims simply have no basis in fact. Such things as "ground-loop" problems could be improved upon if not completely eliminated by properly designed power line "accessories", but that would not provide the sorts of audible improvements to the sonic quality that the audio CONEs claim.

[jneutron]

John, your post while it was both entertaining and enlightening (I suppose) failed completely to address Beckman"s request for someone - anyone - to explain just how a power cord can affect the incoming A-C power in such a way that it will improve the sound quality of the device it is connected to..

If you think that my post was entertaining, then we have to talk....:-)

You are correct, I did not answer the question directly.

However, to consider whether a power cord can improve sound also requires considering the opposite side of the coin...that it can make the sound worse..

My extreme example, that of re-forming the power cord into a multiple turn transformer that is coupled to the grounding loop, is just a rather visible statement that I can figure out how to make it worse..

Once that fact has been established, the mechanism is a reality..and, knowing that reality, real power cords can be tested for the same effect.

The only significant difference between a real power cord and my contrived example, is the turns ratio..I have specified perhaps 10 to 15 turns, whereas a real cord will have in effect, approximately 1/2 turn for a twisted run, or 1 turn for a parallel conductor cord.

Since the transfer function of this configuration,when current fed, is proportional to the frequency, this provides a real strong coupling coefficient for frequencies that are in the kilohertz range...

So, if you put together a system and get some hum, either 60, 180, or 300 hz, what do you think will happen to the sound when your amp draws power?

If the cordage configuration is good enough that hum is just inaudible for zero draw, and then you draw a kilowatt from the amp cord, what happens to the sound??

If you will address THAT question, I'm quite sure that your answer will reinforce mine ... that it simply cannot!..

I did, but from the other direction..

I concur with you that a lot of the snake oil needs to be given a dirt nap. That is why I'm applying engineering to the problem..a small contribution, of course, but in the right direction, IMHO.

Cheers, John

[skeptic]

So then if I understand you correctly the only improvement we can expect from changing power cords is a decrease in hum and noise assuming that at least some hum and noise was the result of the power cord in the first place and not all due to other causes. Of course there are some people who would argue that even noise and hum from power cords below the threshold of human hearing will affect what we can hear by introducing some sort of audible distortion which cannot be measured. That is their perpetual arguement. They know what they hear and there is nothing anyone can say to prove otherwise. Of course they will not submit to a DBT or cite one to prove their assertion. In fact, at Cable Asylum where some of the money which funds that site is supplied by people who make and sell cables, the topic is not open for discussion and if you persist in trying, you will be thrown out. Their owner Rod proposed a mission statement which said "only positive experiences" with cables would be open for discussion. Now why would anyone want to go to a place like that? For Jon Risch, it's paradise. This self appointed tin pot god is mad with power. Mad I tell you, MAD, MAD, MAD!!!!!! Hey Phil, do you still go there? Do they still ignore you?

[jneutron]

So then if I understand you correctly the only improvement we can expect from changing power cords is a decrease in hum and noise assuming that at least some hum and noise was the result of the power cord in the first place and not all due to other causes. ?

No, you do not understand me correctly...I apologize for my inadequate explanation..

I am saying that should hum be generated in the input loop by the current draw of the amplifier, then when the amplifier is drawing much more power in response to a music signal, that will cause the hum at the input to increase.. Very large hum component will result in a modulated sound (we've all had that experience)..

If the hum is below hearing, as most of our systems are (if it isn't, we tend to fix it somehow or run the sytem over with the car), then consider:

1kW watt total amp...10 ampere sine draw at full power.., actual of say, 8 amps 60 hz, 1 amp 180hz, .5 at 300, .1 at 420 hz. (totally fictional numbers...run with me here)..Don't forget, coupling scales with frequency.

No input, the amp is drawing little power, say, 100 mA from the line (10 watts)..power cord spectra scaled down accordingly, 1/100 th of full out values..

While quiescent, no hum...it's juuuust below threshold..

Now, music...amp draws full, hum is now 100 times larger..no longer below threshold, but, most likely masked by the sound emanating from the speaker...Or, is it masked?

That's the big question..

And, if the pc loop is providing a conduit for it's draw to affect the input, which amps do not couple it's output signal to the line cord..Mil spec testing procedures are designed to look for that, as are lots of pro style equip designers, but how many amp manu's do? Electrolytic caps have half their value at 20Khz, due to reactive de-coupling of the dielectric..and nobody concerns themselves with supply geometric coupling..why, it's not been considered..

Their owner Rod proposed a mission statement which said "only positive experiences" with cables would be open for discussion. Now why would anyone want to go to a place like that? For Jon Risch, it's paradise. This self appointed tin pot god is mad with power. Mad I tell you, MAD, MAD, MAD!!!!!! Hey Phil, do you still go there? Do they still ignore you?

I have no facts with which I can counter your argument..I've looked, but to no avail...without any alternative information, I am forced to agree with you..or, at the least, not disagree with you there.

As for Phil posting there: yes, he on occasion does..but, as he provides over there the exact same message you are giving here, what do you think they do?

Cheers, John

[mtrycraft]

Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in. Why do you think that exists?

Why don't you ask this question of your beloved Pierre Sprey? Obvious to anyone he doesn't know. While you are asking this question, ask for evidence for his claims, not testimonials.

[skeptic]

"Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in. Why do you think that exists?"

Electrical engineers don't learn about electrical conductivity in wire by taking home the latest product Joe Schmo's Hi Fi Haven is offering this week. They start in a classroom by studying mathematical models of wire, the circuits they are connected to, taking data in laboratories, analyzing it, and drawing scientific conclusions. If they are still interested, they contact people who actually make and test wire like Belden. They don't gain anything from printed advertising literature or hype on the internet. That way they wind up putting their money in their education, not wire for their stereo systems. Now how do YOU learn about it.

[Monstrous Mike]

"Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in. Why do you think that exists?"

Electrical engineers don't learn about electrical conductivity in wire by taking home the latest product Joe Schmo's Hi Fi Haven is offering this week. They start in a classroom by studying mathematical models of wire, the circuits they are connected to, taking data in laboratories, analyzing it, and drawing scientific conclusions. If they are still interested, they contact people who actually make and test wire like Belden. They don't gain anything from printed advertising literature or hype on the internet. That way they wind up putting their money in their education, not wire for their stereo systems. Now how do YOU learn about it.

It pisses me off to no end when my Masters of Electrical Engineering is dismissed by phrases like "But you have no experience in audio design".

Of course, that phrase might be true if audio engineering didn't follow the generally accepted laws of physics and electricity.

[mtrycraft]

Of course, that phrase might be true if audio engineering didn't follow the generally accepted laws of physics and electricity.

Does it in high end audio ? One only needs to read the ads New laws and physics