Mapleshade ?

[wiseburro]

? What about the risk of starting a fire or the risk of the cat getting electricuted.

Is there really any great risk? lol


He has philosophy about cables, which is 'thin'. He helped develop the Omega Mikro cables which have been very well received. The guys is a world class engineer. You can't disqualify him on that basis. He was instrumental in the development of the F-16 from stem to stern. He knows his ****. I think his stuff has a very good sound and the science behind his ideas really can't be challenged. He does what he does for a reason. I'm not going to say I think his products sound the best that is out there, but they aren't that far behind.

The reason that powercord looks the way it does is because of his beliefs about the dialectric. He thinks 'air' is the best.

[mtrycraft]

Is there really any great risk? lol


He has philosophy about cables, which is 'thin'. He helped develop the Omega Mikro cables which have been very well received. The guys is a world class engineer. You can't disqualify him on that basis. He was instrumental in the development of the F-16 from stem to stern. He knows his ****. I think his stuff has a very good sound and the science behind his ideas really can't be challenged. He does what he does for a reason. I'm not going to say I think his products sound the best that is out there, but they aren't that far behind.

The reason that powercord looks the way it does is because of his beliefs about the dialectric. He thinks 'air' is the best.

He has what? Philosopy? What he needs is evidence for his philosophy. After all, it isn't a mystic.
And his idea certainly can be challenged. He has zero evidence for any of his cable ideas making audible differences, zero. Certainly not supported by DBt listening.Certainly he has not produced that evidence.

Just because he is a world class engineer doesn't mean he is on the same playing field in audio cables. Far from it.

He does what he does because there are gullible audiophiles, maybe himself included, that buy into that nonsense.

[woodman]

Mapleshade makes some great sounding cables. With their return policy it's a no risk deal.

Hold on there young'un ... your gullibility is belying the moniker you've chosen for yourself here. This entire Mapleshade "business" (the accessories biz - not the recording biz) is a sham - a hoax - a disgusting ploy to extract cash from the unwary, gullible audio CONEs on totally false pretenses. The leader of this band of thieves may be a talented recording engineer, but he should stick to that career. If that enterprise is not financially successful enough to suit him, he should just throw in the towel and go to work for someone else. This decision to expand his business into dubious cable designs and power cords, strips, etc. is a shameful way to conduct a business ... shame on him.

In order to make you a bit more of a "wiseburro" about audio than you presently are (since you're willing to believe all of the ridiculous claims made), I must tell you that a power cord - no matter how it's designed cannot have any meaningful effect whatsoever on the performance of an electronic product to which it's attached ... period! And dat's da troot.

[skeptic]

I don't like the look of this thing. If it's what it appears to me to be, I'd be afraid to plug it into an outlet. Remember, the upstream circuit breaker will allow 15 amps (or 20 depending on the circuit) to pass before it trips. This power cord doesn't look like it could handle 5. I didn't see any claim for a UL listing or any description of it. It seems their web site is as poorly designed as their power cord. I see Chinese made extension cords at the local dollar store that aren't UL listed either. At least they are made from what appears to be 16 gage wire. As for its ability to improve audio equipment, like all other such claims by wire manufacturers and sellers, there is no indication that such improvement is even possible, let alone likely.

[jneutron]

I must tell you that a power cord - no matter how it's designed cannot have any meaningful effect whatsoever on the performance of an electronic product to which it's attached ... period! And dat's da troot.

That is an incorrect one..

If all the equipment is designed to meet specifications by eliminating the equipment's dependence on an external reference ground, then your statement is correct.

Pro equip is well equipped to do so, with balanced inputs..Home audio is usually not..

How many people out there hear a thump in their powered subwoofer when something electrical turns on or off? It's not coming in via the power cord, but is coming in via the ground loop..

Most, if not all, of the powercords made do not worry about that...just current delivery to the equipment..

Cheers, John

[wiseburro]

He has what? Philosopy? What he needs is evidence for his philosophy. After all, it isn't a mystic.
And his idea certainly can be challenged. He has zero evidence for any of his cable ideas making audible differences, zero. Certainly not supported by DBt listening.Certainly he has not produced that evidence.

Just because he is a world class engineer doesn't mean he is on the same playing field in audio cables. Far from it.

He does what he does because there are gullible audiophiles, maybe himself included, that buy into that nonsense.

His evidence is the the people that buy his products and enjoy them. That is all the evidence he needs.

Gullible audiophiles? Far too many folks have enjoyed his products for it to be considered nonsense.

As for the dbt nonsense. That is your standard, which you have every right to have, but it by no means invalidates his products. Listen to any of their recordings and they are leading edge as far as sonic reproduction. He employs his 'nonsense' as you put it it into every recordeing and they sound magnificant.

[wiseburro]

Hold on there young'un ... your gullibility is belying the moniker you've chosen for yourself here. This entire Mapleshade "business" (the accessories biz - not the recording biz) is a sham - a hoax - a disgusting ploy to extract cash from the unwary, gullible audio CONEs on totally false pretenses. The leader of this band of thieves may be a talented recording engineer, but he should stick to that career. If that enterprise is not financially successful enough to suit him, he should just throw in the towel and go to work for someone else. This decision to expand his business into dubious cable designs and power cords, strips, etc. is a shameful way to conduct a business ... shame on him.

In order to make you a bit more of a "wiseburro" about audio than you presently are (since you're willing to believe all of the ridiculous claims made), I must tell you that a power cord - no matter how it's designed cannot have any meaningful effect whatsoever on the performance of an electronic product to which it's attached ... period! And dat's da troot.

You have not one shred of 'evidence' to back up that ludicrous assault on Sprey's character or his products. Shame on you.

You are touting your opinions about powercords, and nothing more.

Why do skeptics always have to rely in the histrionics of insult?

[skeptic]

Welcome back. Haven't seen your postings in a long time.

While you are technically correct about grounding, the implication of manufacturers of power cords is that somehow, the ability of the power cord to deliver current from a wall outlet to the power transformer of electronic equipment in some way alters the performance of that equipment. This on the face of it seems ludicrous. As you know, the power cord is the least significant element in the circuit which comprises the utility transformer secondary, feeder cables to the service entrance, the branch circuit conductors, and the transformer primary of the electronic appliance. Grounding MUST conform to NEC article 250 and to the conditions under which UL approved the appliance for its seal. The inability of electronic equipment to meet its performance specifications for noise and distortion due to ground loops is usually due to limitations inherent in the design of the equipment itself which includes its manufacturer supplied power cord and local conditions of the power distribution network. It is true that multiple service entrances and complex cable, and telephone interconnections can create additional ground loop problems which usually have to be dealt with by installing a single signal reference ground. This is typical for office buildings but can happen even in homes and I've had the experience of it in my own house connecting TVs and VCRs to different cable outlets and then to each other forming a loop. Manufacturers of these cables further try to alarm consumers into buying their products by implying that rf noise somehow parasitic to power distribution will compromise performance of their equipment. It is clear from the Mapleshade power cord pictured on the referenced web site that this was not a concern here as there is not even the slightest attempt at shielding. However, parasitic capacitance suggested by the twisting of the conductors and inductance suggested by their spacing could act as an rf filter but it is hardly worth $150 but more like $1.50.

Most advertisers of audiophile power cords have some gimmick to lure customers. One says his cords are made from a single crystal of copper with no grain boundaries. Some have odd geometries. One even has a dangerously removable ground pin on the plug. Once ungrounded, the appliance no longer conforms to UL if the original equipment was supplied with one and a short to the metal case could cause exposed live parts creating a hazard of electrocution.

In an 11 year stretch of building laboratories for the research arm of the Regional Bell Operating Companies (RBOCs) including installation of some of the most sensitive measuring equipment available, I encountered may grounding schemes including some crazy ones that were requested. But in all that time, I never saw a piece of bench equipment that was supplied with anything more than a standard power cord and although there were occaional requests for UPSs to protect experiments against power failures, no special precautions to get the most performance from equipment of that type was ever requested prior to or subsequent to installation. That strongly suggests to me that the need for it in a consumer audio amplifier is completely bogus.

[jneutron]

Welcome back. Haven't seen your postings in a long time. .

Been busy tipping at windmills...:-)

While you are technically correct about grounding, the implication of manufacturers of power cords is that somehow, the ability of the power cord to deliver current from a wall outlet to the power transformer of electronic equipment in some way alters the performance of that equipment..

You are incorrect...the manu's don't imply that...they flat out make those ridiculous claims..such garbage..

This on the face of it seems ludicrous. As you know, the power cord is the least significant element in the circuit which comprises the utility transformer secondary, feeder cables to the service entrance, the branch circuit conductors, and the transformer primary of the electronic appliance. Grounding MUST conform to NEC article 250 and to the conditions under which UL approved the appliance for its seal. The inability of electronic equipment to meet its performance specifications for noise and distortion due to ground loops is usually due to limitations inherent in the design of the equipment itself which includes its manufacturer supplied power cord and local conditions of the power distribution network. It is true that multiple service entrances and complex cable, and telephone interconnections can create additional ground loop problems which usually have to be dealt with by installing a single signal reference ground. This is typical for office buildings but can happen even in homes and I've had the experience of it in my own house connecting TVs and VCRs to different cable outlets and then to each other forming a loop. Manufacturers of these cables further try to alarm consumers into buying their products by implying that rf noise somehow parasitic to power distribution will compromise performance of their equipment. It is clear from the Mapleshade power cord pictured on the referenced web site that this was not a concern here as there is not even the slightest attempt at shielding. However, parasitic capacitance suggested by the twisting of the conductors and inductance suggested by their spacing could act as an rf filter but it is hardly worth $150 but more like $1.50.

Most advertisers of audiophile power cords have some gimmick to lure customers. One says his cords are made from a single crystal of copper with no grain boundaries. Some have odd geometries. One even has a dangerously removable ground pin on the plug. Once ungrounded, the appliance no longer conforms to UL if the original equipment was supplied with one and a short to the metal case could cause exposed live parts creating a hazard of electrocution...

I find I am "required" to copy and post a lot of your talk about this...although I agree with all you said, I prefer it remain intact, a constant reminder to all that the issue is that important..thanks..

But in all that time, I never saw a piece of bench equipment that was supplied with anything more than a standard power cord and although there were occaional requests for UPSs to protect experiments against power failures, no special precautions to get the most performance from equipment of that type was ever requested prior to or subsequent to installation. That strongly suggests to me that the need for it in a consumer audio amplifier is completely bogus.

At work here, I find a lot of exception to that..a lot of the 12 phase supplies, especially the ones over a quarter megawatt, create all kinds of ground bounce issues. The 5 megawatt one a quarter mile away also raises hell..And, all in an environment where we're trying to measure tenth microvolt signals riding 30 Kiloamp super loads..

So much of the audio stuff we use has no regard for grounding issues...leaving the consumers to figure out hum and noise issues. It's no wonder the snake oil flourishes..

Cheers, John

[wiseburro]

That strongly suggests to me that the need for it in a consumer audio amplifier is completely bogus.

I think this is the key statement. You are relying on your experience in another area to make an assumption on consumer audio. Have you ever tried switching out a powercord?

[skeptic]

I design and build power distribution networks for a living. What do you think?

[skeptic]

Here are some numbers. These are typical worst case real world numbers.

Say an audio amplifier which is 40% efficient is putting out 200 watts per channel and all of the current is coming from the power transformer. It draws 1000 watts which is 8 amps at 120 volts. At that point, it has an effective input impedence of 15 ohms.

16 gage AWG has an impedence of 4 ohms for 1000 feet. A 5 foot power cord of 16 gage wire will have an impedence of .04 ohms. The voltage drop due to the power cord is one third of a volt. If an audio amplifier can't handle a one third of a volt drop, it isn't much of an amplifier to begin with.

Here's a web site for wire impedence by gage if you want to try the calculations yourself.

http://dl.jctc.kctcs.net/ET110/42c256/lecturepage3.htm

[skeptic]

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm confronted with a 12 phase power supply or a 5 megawatt audio amplifier.

You would not believe what they want you to do to ground a telephone switch. And if it's hit by lightning, it can make all the difference in the world.

[jneutron]

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm confronted with a 12 phase power supply or a 5 megawatt audio amplifier.

Hey, you never know when you'll need one..especially if your speakers aren't very efficient..

But in that enviro, I still run my 100 foot snake, which is a 14/2 extension cord, a mike run, and an unbalanced line feed to the power amp on stage, and have absolutely no issues with noise or hum, period..

But the guy who does PA for the lab has to use all those hum bucker thingy's, and still has huge noise problems anyway because of building HVAC and superconducting collider ring power supplies.. but my dinky 300wpc system with this ridiculous snake cord totally outperforms everything he does, simply because I've addressed the ground bounce..

Cheers, John

[wiseburro]

I design and build power distribution networks for a living. What do you think?

From the sound of it I think you have no experience with the audal effects of different powercords.

[wiseburro]

You have not one shred of 'evidence' to back up that ludicrous assault on Sprey's character or his products. Shame on you.

You are touting your opinions about powercords, and nothing more.

Why do skeptics always have to rely in the histrionics of insult?

I just wanted to add that whenever you make claims about his motives or character without any evidence you become exactly what you accuse him of being, if not moreso.

[skeptic]

I expect that like MOST people in business, his motive is to make money. Mabye Peter Qtwerp is in business part for fun and part for money but he's the exception. The question is does his product have any real value beyond what you get from the manufacturer. In most of his competitors cases you look at it, shrug your shoulders, and say what the hell, if people want to buy this stuff at 100 times what its worth, well it's their money. But in this case, this wire looks frighteningly thin. While it is apparantly intended for a low current draw applaince like a cd player, with its standard connector, it could be hooked up to a high powered high current draw amplifier. It just doesn't look like it could handle it and seems to me that it might just melt or catch fire long before the circuit breaker trips. Are there any specs for this thing? I couldn't find any on his web site. Give me the specific page link please. Sometimes I wonder if these guys actually believe what they put in their ads or are just playing games. In this case, I couldn't find anything on his site. Just a picture and prices.

[skeptic]

"From the sound of it I think you have no experience with the audal effects of different powercords."

What is the audal effect? I never heard of it.

[wiseburro]

Sorry for the typo. Audial.

[jneutron]

Sorry for the typo. Audial.

It's either auto-dial, or audible..(please select the second choice.).

As for the person being discussed....

Both of you are correct in part..the guy may be smart, he definitely is in it for the money...

But making a power cord that is so ineptly dangerous that it should be banned from the market is not right. One funeral because of that unsafe design is one too many.

Cheers, John

[skeptic]

It is easy to make the mistake of assuming that because a guy is technically savvy about one thing, maybe even a genius, he is automatically savvy about everything else technical. Whether its John Curl, an acknowledged fine designer of audio amplifiers embarrassing himself about the quantum physics of electrical conductivity in wires or a guy named Lawrence N. who was an expert at using an Eximer Laser but didn't know beans about chemistry and insisted on installing normal carbon steel tubing and ductwork for the fluorine supply and discharge because his department didn't have a sufficient budget for stainless steel, many people blindly believe in them. The safety guy who sat mute at the meeting because he had a personal war with my division manager later admitted that in a similar installation, a small leak had done a quarter of a million dollars in damage over a weekend in another lab that another scientist had built the same way.

I don't know what role this guy played in the design of electrical control systems in high performance aircraft and these may have been low voltage power limited systems anyway, but extrapolating to the design he is marketing for a 120 volt 15 amp power cord makes me feel he has gone way out beyond his depth. It makes me suspect he was a technician who became an audio tinkerer, not an engineer. I don't think that even Jon Risch would ever propose anything like this.

BTW, to RGA who wants to know why I won't post at AA anymore, the last time I saw something this dangerous was a DIY posting at cable asylum for a power cord made out of coax and another using ferrite beads creating high impedence grounds. The guy who built monster speaker cables weaving 10,000 pairs of cat 5 telephone wire together and blew up his amplifier (I say he built a giant capacitor which sent it into spontaneous ultrasonic oscillation) didn't inspire any confidence either. Some of their proposed home brew electrical wiring projects for their houses were nightmares too. Scary.

[Monstrous Mike]

His evidence is the the people that buy his products and enjoy them. That is all the evidence he needs.

Gullible audiophiles? Far too many folks have enjoyed his products for it to be considered nonsense.

Your type of wording and approach to consumerism can be applied to all the get well, weight loss, talking to the dead, penis enlargement, pyramid power, voodoo medicine, hair growth, Nigerian email, lottery, pyramid schemes and weasel and snake oil products on the face of the earth.

Here is a list of issues to beware of when you might be in the midst of parting with your hard-earned money. There are techniques used by the scammers:

1. Money back guarantee. This is a method of gaining trust. How can you lose? If you don't like it, return it for a full refund. That's because scammers know that most people will not go through the hassle of returning a product. It's human nature. And besides, a lot of the time you cannot return the product if it is working correctly. Go ahead and try to prove that your new power cord is not up to snuff or is defective.

2. Act like the little guy. This concept involves convincing people that the scammers are the David as opposed to the Goliath of the established scientific community. They show how scientists and skeptics are on their backs never giving them a chance. Everybody likes to root for the underdog, right?

3. Confidence or confiding. Again this is human nature at work. You are led to believe that you are exposed to something that most people are not or would not understand. This gives you a feeling of superiority. You are told you have special hearing and this is why other skeptics cannot hear the improvements.

4. Claims of recommendations. This is one is easy to see. Let's go read the reviews of all the people who love the product. The more reviews, the more legitimate the product appears.

5. The cost of the product is excessive. Again it is human nature to assume more expensive means better not to mention the prestige.

6. Avoid blind comparisons. Why would a product not want to be compared to another product or a gold standard?

7. Associate the product with reputable ideas. The goal here to try to form a connection between the product and a known scientific property or law. This link is easy to discredit by scientific types unless it is worded vaguely.

8. Don't make a direct claim. Scammers will rarely make a direct statement of product superiority. Instead, there will be inferences planted which would lead the consumer to make an inaccurate conclusion.

9. Play on people's desires. This is one of the most powerful weapons of a scammers. Usually the consumer already has the will to believe something to be true and thus it is not a long trip to convince him. The emotions get eleveated when in the process of believing and this will cause the consumer to miss the normal warning signs.

The next time you want to buy and new and improved audio product, apply the previous list and see how much of it applies.

[skeptic]

The FTC doesn't see it your way. If he makes a claim that his product performs better than his competitors, he has to have scientific proof to back it up or it is fraudulent advertising. He has to offer this proof BEFORE he makes these claims, not after he is challenged in court or by the FTC. Testimonial endorsements and money back if not satisfied guarantees are not considered an acceptable substitute. I cited the FTC rules on fair advertising in a long thread about a year or so ago. It's still there but you can visit the FTC website for yourself and get it. It's in plain english for anyone to read and understand. BTW, most of his competitors get around it by not actually making any claims for performance at all. They infer, suggest, lead the prospective buyer on but they never come outright and say it. That may be left for a verbal statement at the point of sale which the manufacturer can easily disavow. I think most of them have lawyers who tell them just how far they can go.

[Beckman]

Remember, the upstream circuit breaker will allow 15 amps (or 20 depending on the circuit) to pass before it trips.

If a dead short were to occur 10,000 amps are passed through for a split second before the circuit trips.

[wiseburro]

It's either auto-dial, or audible..(please select the second choice.).

As for the person being discussed....

Both of you are correct in part..the guy may be smart, he definitely is in it for the money...

But making a power cord that is so ineptly dangerous that it should be banned from the market is not right. One funeral because of that unsafe design is one too many.

Cheers, John

lol Actually it is audial, or aural. Generally, people who are in business are in it for the money. I have no problem with that.

I don't know it if has been accurately demonstrated that his powercord is inherently dangerous. I'm certainly no engineer, but I don't think as a businessman that he would open himself up to that sort of liability. I have talked to him several times on the phone about a couple of products. I'm sure he would be more than willing to discuss the finer points of his powercord safety.