Mapleshade ?

[skeptic]

"As for Phil posting there: yes, he on occasion does..but, as he provides over there the exact same message you are giving here, what do you think they do?"

If Phil Tower is plagiarizing my mesages, I will demand royalties. BTW, I don't think Phil Tower and I have ever agreed on anything related to audio. If that day ever comes, I will have to take a long hard look at where I went wrong.

[Beckman]

Why arn't "high end" power cords used in industry at all? There is a lot of equpiment out there (function genertors, spectrum analyzers, oscilliscopes, network analyzers, etc.) that have to have much more accuarcay in the signals they produce or detect (in case of network analyzer produce and detect). Audio deals with 20 Hz - 20 kHz. I have seen network analyzers that go up to 100 MHz, and they don't incorporate any speacial power cords.

I guess I am just looking for an explanation as to why "high end" power cords are limited to "high end" audio.

[jneutron]

Why arn't "high end" power cords used in industry at all? There is a lot of equpiment out there (function genertors, spectrum analyzers, oscilliscopes, network analyzers, etc.) that have to have much more accuarcay in the signals they produce or detect (in case of network analyzer produce and detect). Audio deals with 20 Hz - 20 kHz. I have seen network analyzers that go up to 100 MHz, and they don't incorporate any speacial power cords.

I guess I am just looking for an explanation as to why "high end" power cords are limited to "high end" audio.

Lotta hype..little understanding..lotta money..and the most important thing....

How many high priced pieces of industry equipment, as part of their design, rely on the input reference ground being hard wired directly to the ground plug of a wall outlet????

How many of them pull a kilowatt while assuming the ground is stable??

How many people have had to use an isolator on a scope plug, so that it floated off ground, because ground was messing up the input....would anyone publish a scope photo in a paper, if the waveform obviously had hum riding on it??? Or a spectra with an obvious 60 hz modulation, where none is supposed to be? How many would use a power supply that increases it's 60, 180, 300, 420, 540 hz ripple as the supply draws more from the line??

The answer is none..industry takes great pains to make sure the line cord has absolutely nothing to do with the functionality of the unit....Even pro app amps use a balanced input, and make sure it's decoupled from line issues..while high end audio typically doesn't look at it all..

Look at the responses to my pics and details concerning loop issues...Chief engineers at a coupla large companies have had difficulty understanding the concepts I'm presenting..it takes a while to detail the geometries and functions to them... the stuff is mainly E/M theory, and most of the engineers I knew in undergrad and grad school faded when it came to that..I screwed the curve up on them big time..course, they toasted me in other subjects..

{Of course, now..here I am, preposterously low on the e/m food chain at work..you would not believe some of the meetings here...I certainly don't. I'm so low here that I am considered foodstock..}

That is why I had posted the concerns we deal with at work..quarter and half megawatt supplies, while (usually) not something you use at home, bring these ground reference issues right in your face.. it takes great pains to eliminate the line concerns at the input reference...especially when you're looking for sub microvolt signals..

Now...take a good look at the RCA input of your "high end amp", and measure it's resistance to the line cord ground...and explain to me why the current path you are measuring does not affect the ground reference for the amp...from 20hz to 20Khz..

BTW...even though the PC that started this discussion is, to my belief, a dangerous entity as a result of inadequate guage and insulation....it, by design, certainly does reduce coupling of it's currents to the input loop...and it ain't magic..and they certainly don't have a clue as to what it is they did to reduce it..

Random.....guesswork..nothing but trial and error...

Dammit....That's gonna change.

Cheers, John

[skeptic]

Industrial users only put their money into things that actually work. NOBODY in industry is stupid enough to fall for this gimmick. Any company that came out with such a product for industry or supplied one with their equipment would be a laughing stock to be ridiculed by its competitors. I've probably seen at 50,000 to 100,000 or more pieces of lab equipment in the countless labs I've built and visited over more than 30 years and nobody ever had such a thing as an expensive power cord with an 5-15P or 5-20P plug.

BTW, isolated ground systems which have no ground loops are the industrial equivalent of consumer audio power cords, the expensive magic bullet which will solve all problems (according to those who demand them.) Many of them are installed wrong. Furthermore, nobody I ever met either installed an isolated ground system or knows of anyone who installed one which actually solved an existing problem. This includes countless electricians and electrical engineers I've worked with. This is not to say that some special equipment didn't require special grounding but these were unusual items and their special requirements were known up front. If anyone needs a procedure to test that an isolated ground system is correctly installed, contact me via a private message. I've designed them and built them but in my experience, the added cost has been a total waste of money.

[jneutron]

Industrial users only put their money into things that actually work. NOBODY in industry is stupid enough to fall for this gimmick. Any company that came out with such a product for industry or supplied one with their equipment would be a laughing stock to be ridiculed by its competitors. I've probably seen at 50,000 to 100,000 or more pieces of lab equipment in the countless labs I've built and visited over more than 30 years and nobody ever had such a thing as an expensive power cord with an 5-15P or 5-20P plug.

BTW, isolated ground systems which have no ground loops are the industrial equivalent of consumer audio power cords, the expensive magic bullet which will solve all problems (according to those who demand them.) Many of them are installed wrong. Furthermore, nobody I ever met either installed an isolated ground system or knows of anyone who installed one which actually solved an existing problem. This includes countless electricians and electrical engineers I've worked with. This is not to say that some special equipment didn't require special grounding but these were unusual items and their special requirements were known up front. If anyone needs a procedure to test that an isolated ground system is correctly installed, contact me via a private message. I've designed them and built them but in my experience, the added cost has been a total waste of money.

Laughed at???they'd be flogged, and rightly so..

Here we have to build isolation amp systems to get around ground issues..the 440V/500 mcm 3 phase runs are so intimidating, nobody in their right mind would think of compromising ground..

Yah, we have some unusual systems here..

Cheers, skep: keep up the good work...


John

[skeptic]

"nobody in their right mind would think of compromising ground.."

Oh really! Then you haven't seen some of the things I've seen. The compromises ranged from the trivial to the blatently ludicrous. Here's a crazy one I remember a good fight over. Of course I won.

A large international manufacturer of electrical equipment supplied a telephone switch as part of an experimental telephone network for testing network equipment, debugging software, and training BOC personnel on using that software. (It was one of three large switches and about half a dozen to a dozen more labs connected to this "in house" experimental network.) The installers INSISTED, that I install a plastic bushing in line with the conduit run to the rectifiers "to prevent ground loops." I told them that while telephone company Central Offices (COs) may be exempt from the National Electric Code, this laboratory building wasn't and I flatly refused to comply. They were of course quite angry and upset. They told me that every switch they had installed in the network in the real world was installed this way. As it happened, one of the departments in my company wrote the specifications and set the standards for installation of equipment for Central Offices for the RBOCS. So I asked a contact who worked for them whether or not they take exception to NEC on grounding. He said absolutely not, the internal requrement for telephone company central offices is to comply with NEC in its entirety. So I told him they'd better revisit this manufacturer's switches all over the US because if these people were telling me the truth, every one of them is installed wrong.

[jneutron]

"nobody in their right mind would think of compromising ground.."

Oh really! Then you haven't seen some of the things I've seen. The compromises ranged from the trivial to the blatently ludicrous. Here's a crazy one I remember a good fight over. Of course I won. (Example)

Ummm, skep? I said nobody in their right mind.....and, I point out you called it a "crazy one"

I stand by my initial assertion...

Till we meet again...perhaps tomorrow...it's always fun

Cheers, John

[pctower]

Does that include you Phil? Here's some of what you said on the subject in your post "Matter of perspective" barely a month ago. Stenographer, could you read back the relavent portions of Mr. Tower's testimony?;

"My post that started this thread was not intended to be taken seriously. I was just trying to jerk some chains for the fun of it. I consider it good natured humor. Others think I'm just being a total ass."

"If people stop taking the bait I'll probably get bored and stop. Of course that would be the final nail in the coffin for this cadaver of an audio board (I learned how to spell "cadaver" in responding to RL so I just had to use it one more is a real yawner"

"I find it interesting that there is extensive discussion of the New York High End show over at AA, but not a single mention of it that I have found here at AR.

For better or worse, over here it's the Best Buy crowd - over there they have actually listened to one or more high end systems."

I think you have described youself to a tee in your current post about histrionics and insults.

Your witness.

(I may have been watching a little to much Law and Order on TNT.)

Of course it includes me. Do you think that if I actually had a life I would be found within less the a light year of any forum on which you spew you daily wad of vile?

[skeptic]

I once shared an office with a guy who was a pretty sharp engineer. I told him once that the only difference between us and this other guy who was a furniture coordinator is that WE know we were Al Bundy, the other guy didn't. Glad to see you have a realistic view of youself.

I'm a paraplegic shut in, what's your excuse.

Just kidding.

[mtrycraft]

Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in. Why do you think that exists?

Why don't you ask this question of your beloved Pierre Sprey? Obvious to anyone he doesn't know. While you are asking this question, ask for evidence for his claims, not testimonials.

[skeptic]

"Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in. Why do you think that exists?"

Electrical engineers don't learn about electrical conductivity in wire by taking home the latest product Joe Schmo's Hi Fi Haven is offering this week. They start in a classroom by studying mathematical models of wire, the circuits they are connected to, taking data in laboratories, analyzing it, and drawing scientific conclusions. If they are still interested, they contact people who actually make and test wire like Belden. They don't gain anything from printed advertising literature or hype on the internet. That way they wind up putting their money in their education, not wire for their stereo systems. Now how do YOU learn about it.

[Beckman]

[b]They have no friends (who would possibly want to spend more than 30 seconds around one of these people) and no life. The only purpose they serve is to provide entertainment for the rest of us.

...

[pctower]

I once shared an office with a guy who was a pretty sharp engineer. I told him once that the only difference between us and this other guy who was a furniture coordinator is that WE know we were Al Bundy, the other guy didn't. Glad to see you have a realistic view of youself.

I'm a paraplegic shut in, what's your excuse.

Just kidding.

what's your excuse

Now there's a question I don't have a clue as to how to answer. My sanity may depend on unearthing the answer.

[Monstrous Mike]

"Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in. Why do you think that exists?"

Electrical engineers don't learn about electrical conductivity in wire by taking home the latest product Joe Schmo's Hi Fi Haven is offering this week. They start in a classroom by studying mathematical models of wire, the circuits they are connected to, taking data in laboratories, analyzing it, and drawing scientific conclusions. If they are still interested, they contact people who actually make and test wire like Belden. They don't gain anything from printed advertising literature or hype on the internet. That way they wind up putting their money in their education, not wire for their stereo systems. Now how do YOU learn about it.

It pisses me off to no end when my Masters of Electrical Engineering is dismissed by phrases like "But you have no experience in audio design".

Of course, that phrase might be true if audio engineering didn't follow the generally accepted laws of physics and electricity.

[mtrycraft]

Of course, that phrase might be true if audio engineering didn't follow the generally accepted laws of physics and electricity.

Does it in high end audio ? One only needs to read the ads New laws and physics