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  1. #1
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    JBL's Internal Monster Wiring

    The owner's manual for Harman International's new JBL K2 S5800 speakers, introduced last year at $18,000 per pair list, not only recommends the use of audiophile cables but points out that these speakers are internally wired with Monster Cable specially designed for JBL. The manual can be found at JBL's web site:

    http://www.jbl.com/home/product_supp...&Submit=Submit

    Some Cable Forum members continue to claim that Dr. Floyd E. Toole, Harman's Corporate Vice President Of Accoustical Engineering, found different cables don't make an audible difference, although Toole has not confirmed this is his position on cables. In a 6-25-2004 post, Pat D said "Alan Lofft, former editor of Audio Scene Canada, told me in an EMail that Dr.Toole had done extensive DB testing with cables a number of years ago and found that proper cables did not make an audilble difference." Monstrous Mike also has recently said he has second hand knowledge that Dr.Toole "found that cables do not affect the sound of his speakers."

    If Dr.Toole believes cables don't make a difference, why are the new JBL K2 S5800 speakers internally wired with Monster Cable specially designed for JBL, and why does the owner's manual for these speakers emphasize the importance of using audiophile cables? We can continue to speculate on the reasons for the apparent contradiction between what Dr. Toole may believe and what his firm's speaker manuals say. Or someone can just ask him. Will Pat D, Monstrous Mike, or anyone else who has made claims about Dr. Toole's position on cables be willing to contact him?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax

    If Dr.Toole believes cables don't make a difference, why are the new JBL K2 S5800 speakers internally wired with Monster Cable specially designed for JBL, and why does the owner's manual for these speakers emphasize the importance of using audiophile cables? We can continue to speculate on the reasons for the apparent contradiction between what Dr. Toole may believe and what his firm's speaker manuals say. Or someone can just ask him. Will Pat D, Monstrous Mike, or anyone else who has made claims about Dr. Toole's position on cables be willing to contact him?
    Why not you send him an email at the JBL website. He will not bite, much Then you get first hand info and response and follow up questioning?

    I bet he is not involved in the marketing of the speakers.
    mtrycrafts

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Why not you send him an email at the JBL website. He will not bite, much Then you get first hand info and response and follow up questioning?

    I bet he is not involved in the marketing of the speakers.
    It was Pat D and Monstrous Mike, not I, who made claims about what Dr.Toole found. If you believe the obligation for proof is on those who make the claims, you should be asking them to email Dr.Toole for an explanation instead of asking me. Whoever does it should post the correspondence on this Forum.

  4. #4
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    There is only one possible explanation and that is that it is pure marketing hype targeted at a market which has more money than brains and knowledge. If you truely want a special cable developed just for your purpose, you don't go to Monster Cable, you go to Belden. Their R&D department would run rings around Monster Cable's on their worst day. So would their quality control department. (For all I know, Belden makes cable for Monster and puts their name on it.)

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    There is only one possible explanation and that is that it is pure marketing hype targeted at a market which has more money than brains and knowledge.
    Paranoia strikes deep, huh skep? First audiophiles caused the downfall of your beloved AR and now Dr. Toole, corporate vice president of acoustical engineering, is reduced to but a powerless and willing pawn in the defrauding of the audio public.

    What's your next theory? - rapidly declining sales of Lincoln Town Cars caused by corporate pressure to deliberately restrict availability to their fans in the post-retirement demographics?

    rw

  6. #6
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    Having fun?

    You still persist in acting like Toole has the final say over everything that goes on at Harmon Intl. I would hope that one who professes to be so all knowing would know better than that.

    ...or are we just grandstanding for the uninformed again?

    I wondr how much Noel Lee and company paid for this endorsment?

    I'l betcha that the great unwashed are highly impressed by their use of monster cable internally. Just like some speakers put bi wire terminals on speakers that, by their engineers own admission, don't benefit a bit from them, except on a sales chart.

    I saw a family buying a $99 shelf stereo that had the words "bi amped.bi wired" on the side. That seems to be the new buzz word to filter down to the barely educated and/or terminally gullible, just like "bi wiring" and "hi end cables" did previously.

  7. #7
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    "First audiophiles caused the downfall of your beloved AR"

    The downfall of AR was the fact that the techies who took over from Vilcher knew a lot more about building audio equipment than they did about how to run a profitable company. Their business plan was a failure.

    Anone who wants to buy a high end speaker system from Harman International looks at Revel...or Infinity, not JBL.

    And BTW, I don't care what happens to Lincoln's sales figures. Anyone who builds a car where it costs $1500 to replace the two headlights doesn't deserve to be in business anyway. Maybe Ford Motor Company will wind up like AR. Nah, no such luck.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax
    It was Pat D and Monstrous Mike, not I, who made claims about what Dr.Toole found. If you believe the obligation for proof is on those who make the claims, you should be asking them to email Dr.Toole for an explanation instead of asking me. Whoever does it should post the correspondence on this Forum.

    What he, Dr Toole found with his research and what the company Harman is marketing are two issues, no? Toole is not in charge of marketing, right? He may not have much to say on it.
    I offered you an opportunity to find out from him directly. It is free. He has responded to emails in the past.

    There is nothing in that link that would claim special needs. If I remember back a number of hours, it recommends at least 16 ga wire for 5 m length as a minimum, well made. They use Monster wire on the inside. And? Is that a special testable claims other than you can check the inside and make sure it does in fact has the Monster label on it.
    Something wrong with using Monster? Maybe that is why the speakers cost $9k?

    What other special claims are made?
    mtrycrafts

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    Their R&D department would run rings around Monster Cable's on their worst day. .)

    What? Monster has an R&D? I don't believe it.
    mtrycrafts

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    You still persist in acting like Toole has the final say over everything that goes on at Harmon Intl. I would hope that one who professes to be so all knowing would know better than that.

    ...or are we just grandstanding for the uninformed again?

    I wondr how much Noel Lee and company paid for this endorsment?

    I'l betcha that the great unwashed are highly impressed by their use of monster cable internally. Just like some speakers put bi wire terminals on speakers that, by their engineers own admission, don't benefit a bit from them, except on a sales chart.

    I saw a family buying a $99 shelf stereo that had the words "bi amped.bi wired" on the side. That seems to be the new buzz word to filter down to the barely educated and/or terminally gullible, just like "bi wiring" and "hi end cables" did previously.
    There are direct links to three people on Harman International's home page. Two are Dr. Sidney Harman and Gina Harman. The third is Dr. Floyd Toole.

    You act as if he is third in command of the mail room's restrooms.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    There are direct links to three people on Harman International's home page. Two are Dr. Sidney Harman and Gina Harman. The third is Dr. Floyd Toole.

    You act as if he is third in command of the mail room's restrooms.

    They have a rest room in the mail room? Arfe you sure? Or, is it down the hall?

    I don't see much in that handbook link that is anything of importance towards wires. They are partial to Monster for most likely reason of $$? Certainly no indication of objective superiority. Or, did I miss that?

    Wonder who Gina Harman is, daughter? Wife?
    mtrycrafts

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    There are direct links to three people on Harman International's home page. Two are Dr. Sidney Harman and Gina Harman. The third is Dr. Floyd Toole.

    You act as if he is third in command of the mail room's restrooms.
    From my experience in, not just with, big business, engineering decisions in many cases are outweighed by, and in many cases, driven by the marketing department.

    Audio is, after all, a perception driven retail business bowing to the lowest common denominator.

  13. #13
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    Actually they don't research cables, what they research is the audiophile cable market. And in that regard they have been very successful.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by markw
    From my experience in, not just with, big business, engineering decisions in many cases are outweighed by, and in many cases, driven by the marketing department.

    Audio is, after all, a perception driven retail business bowing to the lowest common denominator.
    From my young teen-age experiences along Canal Street in Nogales, Sonora, Mexico, someone who allows his name, face, reputation and writing to be prominently displayed for all the world to see on the home page of an international audio conglomerate who fundamentally disagrees with a significant component of that company's marketing strategy is called a "whore".

    So which is he Mark? Is he (1) a professional engineer who, for engineering reasons, supports the use of Monster Cable in the JBL speakers and supports the recommendation regarding use of speaker cables, or (2) a whore?

  15. #15
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    In a sense, anyone who works for someone else is a whore. When the boss has the final say, you either accept it or you leave. That's the conditons of all employment no matter what level you're at or in what business. It would be ludicrous for him to quit over this minor issue. Ultimately every company is in business for only one purpose and that is to make a profit. This little game with the market and the customers doesn't damage the product in any way, just the image of the company and certain people in the eyes of a handful of other people, who basically don't count. You can be sure O'Toole and Sidney Harman are both laughing all the way to the bank. Probably each in their own Limo. Each equipped with a junky Ford JBL sound system. About like mine.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    The downfall of AR was the fact that the techies who took over from Vilcher knew a lot more about building audio equipment than they did about how to run a profitable company. Their business plan was a failure.
    That is a perfectly reasonable explanation. I was referring to your previous comments here:

    Why didn't audiophiles embrace...?


    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    Anone who wants to buy a high end speaker system from Harman International looks at Revel...or Infinity, not JBL.
    Agreed, yet even Chrysler is now getting infused with higher performance M-B technology. Witness the Crossfire. Why not have a lower end product benefit from lessons learned from more capable divisions?

    rw

  17. #17
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    JBL is targeted at a different market which is NOT a true audiophile market. I think that there has been a lot of dissention and turmoil among the old timers at JBL since Sidney Harman took them over. They have been very resistant to change. They have a heritage of producing speakers for the movie theater industry and were in the vanguard of what was once referred to as "The West Coast Sound." I didn't think that this was a real phenomenon until I read it in Sam's Audio Engineering Handbook but it apparantly was real. Of course, accuracy in live versus recorded terms knows no geographical boundaries. It is fortunate that the revenues from JBL's financial success both in the professional market and in the low to middle price consumer market can be used to finance the research of the likes of Revel. JBL also always liked to have a flagship product which was highly innovative such as the Hartsfield and the Paragon. This latest manifestation is just one more of them which will undoubtedly have a very limited production and appeal. As I recall, there's a fair amount of information about it at the Lansing Heritage Site. Like many companies with such high profile low volume (and maybe zero profit) projects, it's a wonderful reward opportunity for their best engineers to run amok with their wildest ideas, whether they are practical or not. In these cases, it's best for top management to keep a hands off policy and just occasionally peek into what they are doing to let them know they are interested but will not be heavy handed. That is another possible explanation of why O'Toole didn't put a stop to the Monster Cable idea. If Monster Cable did develop something for them, it's my hunch they farmed it out to a Belden or an Alpha, and put their name on it for the prestige of being able to say that they are part of the project. It's good advertising for them as well.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    JBL is targeted at a different market which is NOT a true audiophile market.
    Isn't that what I said in my last statement? Low end <> audiophile


    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    That is another possible explanation of why O'Toole didn't put a stop to the Monster Cable idea.
    Stop it? I agree with your first speculation - they have the money to go for improvements exclusive of "practical" costing and pricing issues. I'll believe your tale only when I read that is the case.

    rw

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    Unless you are on the inside, it's all pure speculation. Even then, the truth often depends on who you talk to, especially if company politics is involved. That's business.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    Unless you are on the inside, it's all pure speculation. Even then, the truth often depends on who you talk to, especially if company politics is involved. That's business.
    Indeed. That is why I rejected your first post out of hand. There is more than one possible explanation.

    rw

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    From my young teen-age experiences along Canal Street in Nogales, Sonora, Mexico, someone who allows his name, face, reputation and writing to be prominently displayed for all the world to see on the home page of an international audio conglomerate who fundamentally disagrees with a significant component of that company's marketing strategy is called a "whore".

    So which is he Mark? Is he (1) a professional engineer who, for engineering reasons, supports the use of Monster Cable in the JBL speakers and supports the recommendation regarding use of speaker cables, or (2) a whore?
    He can be neither. He can be an engineer and still be removed from the marketing department. Is it stated in print that he vouched for these cables as making an improvement, or are y'all stretching to try to make a point?

    Let's look at your brothers who do divorces. By your own words they are whores. Should now assume that all lawyers are whores?

  22. #22
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    Cool Monster Mayhem

    After reading most--but admittedly not all--of the linked manual, I saw two references to Monster Cable, both on the same text-heavy page in regular type. This is in a 20 page manual! There's no "Monster Inside" logo on the cover or, I assume, on the speaker enclosure as far as I can see. So it seems like the idea of "whoring" is overblown.

    In the discussion of cable choice, Monster is used as an example, not a requirement. It's true JBL chose Monster Cable to go inside, but so what? It's a recognizable brand that performs as well as any of its competitors.

    Yes, there's marketing going on, but that's a part of selling products.

    As for the discussion about Floyd Toole's role in choosing/endorsing/whoring/rejecting/ignoring the use of Monster Cable internally, why would he give a good flying frak about that? As long as the wire meets the design specs, why would he care where it comes from? Isn't his generally known position that it doesn't matter? He might freak out if it were 18ga aluminum, but, otherwise, he's got better things to do than worry about who manufactures it for the production models.

    Since I've been a life long JBL user (well, since 1970 anyway), I'll take a positive position on the JBL loudspeaker tradition and its current state. In addition to the West Coast Sound L100s I bought in '70 (still playing today BTW), I've had LX Series, L Series (L5 and L7), SVA Series (1800 and 2100) and currently the Performance Series. These are fine loudspeakers that are far above the normal consumer market (not the L100 or LX Series) and will kick the a$$ of most audiophile speakers of contemporary vintage.

    I'm delighted that Revel decided to use the same inverted dome 4" titanium pistonic midrange speakers in its Revel Ultima Salons as are in my Performance Series PT800 and PC600 speakers. I'm delighted that technology and materials from K2 Series speakers and from JBL Synthesis Systems can be migrated to Revel and support its quest for greatness. Revel is a truly remarkable line that I respect a lot; yet, it is not so far removed from the best of JBL in some ways, and not yet its equal in others.

    OK guys, load 'em up and let 'em rip.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    Actually they don't research cables, what they research is the audiophile cable market. And in that regard they have been very successful.

    Ah, they have a huge marketing department then

    Maybe a voodoo department as well?
    mtrycrafts

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by filecat13
    After reading most--but admittedly not all--of the linked manual, I saw two references to Monster Cable, both on the same text-heavy page in regular type. This is in a 20 page manual! There's no "Monster Inside" logo on the cover or, I assume, on the speaker enclosure as far as I can see. So it seems like the idea of "whoring" is overblown.

    In the discussion of cable choice, Monster is used as an example, not a requirement. It's true JBL chose Monster Cable to go inside, but so what? It's a recognizable brand that performs as well as any of its competitors.

    Yes, there's marketing going on, but that's a part of selling products.

    .

    Yes,

    Looks like they made a preference for that brand of cables. Did they make any testable claims for them? I must have missed that too.

    I might have some Monster and Angle cables myself, or it may be no name cable. Matters not.
    mtrycrafts

  25. #25
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    Kind of changing the subject here, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by filecat13
    Since I've been a life long JBL user (well, since 1970 anyway), I'll take a positive position on the JBL loudspeaker tradition and its current state. In addition to the West Coast Sound L100s I bought in '70 (still playing today BTW), I've had LX Series, L Series (L5 and L7), SVA Series (1800 and 2100) and currently the Performance Series. These are fine loudspeakers that are far above the normal consumer market (not the L100 or LX Series) and will kick the a$$ of most audiophile speakers of contemporary vintage.
    filecat13,

    I bought the L7 and L5(for surrounds) and the CL505 center back in 97" (everything at a 1/2 off close out). I bought these based on Stereo Review's (1987?) RAVE review of the JBL100's.

    I always though these sounded good, but never did any critical auditioning of other speakers. Until last year when my brother got a small/medium size Monitor Audio S 5i (I believe)spks which MSRP is 1/2 of the L7. Although they have less bass, the MA's sound much better to me. Better vocals, and most noticable they did not sound bright like the L7s. The L7 to me has a lot of sibilance - so much I could no longer stand them (so I bought a pair of Martin Logan ReQuest).

    Anyway, my question here is, or rather request is, could you please =) give me a detailed review of what you think of the L7's compared to other brand speaker and especially what you think of them compared to the other JBL models? especially compared to the L100 (or is is L100t?)!

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