JBL's Internal Monster Wiring

[okiemax]

The owner's manual for Harman International's new JBL K2 S5800 speakers, introduced last year at $18,000 per pair list, not only recommends the use of audiophile cables but points out that these speakers are internally wired with Monster Cable specially designed for JBL. The manual can be found at JBL's web site:

http://www.jbl.com/home/product_supp...&Submit=Submit

Some Cable Forum members continue to claim that Dr. Floyd E. Toole, Harman's Corporate Vice President Of Accoustical Engineering, found different cables don't make an audible difference, although Toole has not confirmed this is his position on cables. In a 6-25-2004 post, Pat D said "Alan Lofft, former editor of Audio Scene Canada, told me in an EMail that Dr.Toole had done extensive DB testing with cables a number of years ago and found that proper cables did not make an audilble difference." Monstrous Mike also has recently said he has second hand knowledge that Dr.Toole "found that cables do not affect the sound of his speakers."

If Dr.Toole believes cables don't make a difference, why are the new JBL K2 S5800 speakers internally wired with Monster Cable specially designed for JBL, and why does the owner's manual for these speakers emphasize the importance of using audiophile cables? We can continue to speculate on the reasons for the apparent contradiction between what Dr. Toole may believe and what his firm's speaker manuals say. Or someone can just ask him. Will Pat D, Monstrous Mike, or anyone else who has made claims about Dr. Toole's position on cables be willing to contact him?

[mtrycraft]

If Dr.Toole believes cables don't make a difference, why are the new JBL K2 S5800 speakers internally wired with Monster Cable specially designed for JBL, and why does the owner's manual for these speakers emphasize the importance of using audiophile cables? We can continue to speculate on the reasons for the apparent contradiction between what Dr. Toole may believe and what his firm's speaker manuals say. Or someone can just ask him. Will Pat D, Monstrous Mike, or anyone else who has made claims about Dr. Toole's position on cables be willing to contact him?

Why not you send him an email at the JBL website. He will not bite, much Then you get first hand info and response and follow up questioning?

I bet he is not involved in the marketing of the speakers.

[okiemax]

Why not you send him an email at the JBL website. He will not bite, much Then you get first hand info and response and follow up questioning?

I bet he is not involved in the marketing of the speakers.

It was Pat D and Monstrous Mike, not I, who made claims about what Dr.Toole found. If you believe the obligation for proof is on those who make the claims, you should be asking them to email Dr.Toole for an explanation instead of asking me. Whoever does it should post the correspondence on this Forum.

[mtrycraft]

It was Pat D and Monstrous Mike, not I, who made claims about what Dr.Toole found. If you believe the obligation for proof is on those who make the claims, you should be asking them to email Dr.Toole for an explanation instead of asking me. Whoever does it should post the correspondence on this Forum.

What he, Dr Toole found with his research and what the company Harman is marketing are two issues, no? Toole is not in charge of marketing, right? He may not have much to say on it.
I offered you an opportunity to find out from him directly. It is free. He has responded to emails in the past.

There is nothing in that link that would claim special needs. If I remember back a number of hours, it recommends at least 16 ga wire for 5 m length as a minimum, well made. They use Monster wire on the inside. And? Is that a special testable claims other than you can check the inside and make sure it does in fact has the Monster label on it.
Something wrong with using Monster? Maybe that is why the speakers cost $9k?

What other special claims are made?

[Pat D]

It was Pat D and Monstrous Mike, not I, who made claims about what Dr.Toole found. If you believe the obligation for proof is on those who make the claims, you should be asking them to email Dr.Toole for an explanation instead of asking me. Whoever does it should post the correspondence on this Forum.

PCT thinks Dr. Toole never looked into cables, but very credible people who know have said he did. If you do not wish to draw a conclusion from the evidence, you don't have to. Here are a couple of references.

"Audiolab Test: Six Power Amplifiers", Masters, Ian G., Audio Scene Canada, May 1977, pg 44-50.

"Audiolab Test: Amplifiers and Speaker Cables", Masters, Ian G., Audio Scene Canada, Jun 1981, pg 24-27.

Go ask Ian Masters, Alan Lofft, or Dr. Toole himself whether the NRC looked into cables to see if they were relevant to their speaker testing. Why get it second or third hand from us? Get it first hand from people who were involved.

[okiemax]

PCT thinks Dr. Toole never looked into cables, but very credible people who know have said he did. If you do not wish to draw a conclusion from the evidence, you don't have to. Here are a couple of references.

"Audiolab Test: Six Power Amplifiers", Masters, Ian G., Audio Scene Canada, May 1977, pg 44-50.

"Audiolab Test: Amplifiers and Speaker Cables", Masters, Ian G., Audio Scene Canada, Jun 1981, pg 24-27.

Go ask Ian Masters, Alan Lofft, or Dr. Toole himself whether the NRC looked into cables to see if they were relevant to their speaker testing. Why get it second or third hand from us? Get it first hand from people who were involved.

Pat, I think you are telling me your information is hearsay, and you don't really know what Dr.Toole thinks about cables. Nevertheless, I get the impression you like to think he believes zip cord is as good as any audiophile speaker cable in any system. Perhaps you are right. If you are right, I think you would agree his position conflicts with information given in some of his organization's manuals.

While you are not claiming to have information on Dr.Toole's views on cables directly from him, you are claiming to have it second-hand from good sources, and are presenting it as reliable. It would be easy for you to verify that your information is accurate. Just ask Dr. Toole by e-mail about his views on cables and whether they have changed. Regardless of his response, you will have done the right thing.

[mtrycraft]

Pat, I think you are telling me your information is hearsay, and you don't really know what Dr.Toole thinks about cables. Nevertheless, I get the impression you like to think he believes zip cord is as good as any audiophile speaker cable in any system. Perhaps you are right. If you are right, I think you would agree his position conflicts with information given in some of his organization's manuals.

Well, I sent him a number of emails some time in the past and it is no speculation what his position is. Contact him. Why don't you?

Please explain how the manual in any way conflicts his position? Now YOU are the speculator with no evidence. Just because the Monster cable is used is not evidence of anything. Are you telling me I cannot like or prefer the Monstre brand of cables?


It would be easy for you to verify that your information is accurate. Just ask Dr. Toole by e-mail about his views on cables and whether they have changed. .

Precisely. So, contact him and see. While you are at it ask about the use of Monster. Chicken?

[Pat D]

Pat, I think you are telling me your information is hearsay, and you don't really know what Dr.Toole thinks about cables. Nevertheless, I get the impression you like to think he believes zip cord is as good as any audiophile speaker cable in any system. Perhaps you are right. If you are right, I think you would agree his position conflicts with information given in some of his organization's manuals.

While you are not claiming to have information on Dr.Toole's views on cables directly from him, you are claiming to have it second-hand from good sources, and are presenting it as reliable. It would be easy for you to verify that your information is accurate. Just ask Dr. Toole by e-mail about his views on cables and whether they have changed. Regardless of his response, you will have done the right thing.

No, the question at issue was whether the NRC under Dr. Toole's direction looked into whether they needed to worry about special cables. Ian Masters' articles are not second hand information on this question, BTW.

I note that you wish mtrycrafts to make private Emails public. In any case, if you don't believe our second or third hand information, which you evidently don't, go ask Dr. Toole yourself. Or if that's too intimidating for you, write Ian Masters.

[pctower]

PCT thinks Dr. Toole never looked into cables, but very credible people who know have said he did. If you do not wish to draw a conclusion from the evidence, you don't have to. Here are a couple of references.

"Audiolab Test: Six Power Amplifiers", Masters, Ian G., Audio Scene Canada, May 1977, pg 44-50.

"Audiolab Test: Amplifiers and Speaker Cables", Masters, Ian G., Audio Scene Canada, Jun 1981, pg 24-27.

Go ask Ian Masters, Alan Lofft, or Dr. Toole himself whether the NRC looked into cables to see if they were relevant to their speaker testing. Why get it second or third hand from us? Get it first hand from people who were involved.

PCT thinks Dr. Toole never looked into cables, but very credible people who know have said he did. If you do not wish to draw a conclusion from the evidence, you don't have to. Here are a couple of references.


Why do you blatantly lie like that? Please show me where I have ever made a statement like that.

I have merely said I had seen no direct evidence that he had. I have never seen those two articles cited before.

Of course, they are difficult to access and are over 20 years old, so of course they do not cover cables developed since then. For that matter, you don't indicate what specific cables were tested.

[okiemax]

PCT thinks Dr. Toole never looked into cables, but very credible people who know have said he did. If you do not wish to draw a conclusion from the evidence, you don't have to. Here are a couple of references.

"Audiolab Test: Six Power Amplifiers", Masters, Ian G., Audio Scene Canada, May 1977, pg 44-50.

"Audiolab Test: Amplifiers and Speaker Cables", Masters, Ian G., Audio Scene Canada, Jun 1981, pg 24-27.

Go ask Ian Masters, Alan Lofft, or Dr. Toole himself whether the NRC looked into cables to see if they were relevant to their speaker testing. Why get it second or third hand from us? Get it first hand from people who were involved.

Alan Lofft works for Axiom. Axiom sells audiophile cables:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/products.html

What do you make of this?

[skeptic]

There is only one possible explanation and that is that it is pure marketing hype targeted at a market which has more money than brains and knowledge. If you truely want a special cable developed just for your purpose, you don't go to Monster Cable, you go to Belden. Their R&D department would run rings around Monster Cable's on their worst day. So would their quality control department. (For all I know, Belden makes cable for Monster and puts their name on it.)

[E-Stat]

There is only one possible explanation and that is that it is pure marketing hype targeted at a market which has more money than brains and knowledge.

Paranoia strikes deep, huh skep? First audiophiles caused the downfall of your beloved AR and now Dr. Toole, corporate vice president of acoustical engineering, is reduced to but a powerless and willing pawn in the defrauding of the audio public.

What's your next theory? - rapidly declining sales of Lincoln Town Cars caused by corporate pressure to deliberately restrict availability to their fans in the post-retirement demographics?

rw

[markw]

You still persist in acting like Toole has the final say over everything that goes on at Harmon Intl. I would hope that one who professes to be so all knowing would know better than that.

...or are we just grandstanding for the uninformed again?

I wondr how much Noel Lee and company paid for this endorsment?

I'l betcha that the great unwashed are highly impressed by their use of monster cable internally. Just like some speakers put bi wire terminals on speakers that, by their engineers own admission, don't benefit a bit from them, except on a sales chart.

I saw a family buying a $99 shelf stereo that had the words "bi amped.bi wired" on the side. That seems to be the new buzz word to filter down to the barely educated and/or terminally gullible, just like "bi wiring" and "hi end cables" did previously.

[pctower]

You still persist in acting like Toole has the final say over everything that goes on at Harmon Intl. I would hope that one who professes to be so all knowing would know better than that.

...or are we just grandstanding for the uninformed again?

I wondr how much Noel Lee and company paid for this endorsment?

I'l betcha that the great unwashed are highly impressed by their use of monster cable internally. Just like some speakers put bi wire terminals on speakers that, by their engineers own admission, don't benefit a bit from them, except on a sales chart.

I saw a family buying a $99 shelf stereo that had the words "bi amped.bi wired" on the side. That seems to be the new buzz word to filter down to the barely educated and/or terminally gullible, just like "bi wiring" and "hi end cables" did previously.

There are direct links to three people on Harman International's home page. Two are Dr. Sidney Harman and Gina Harman. The third is Dr. Floyd Toole.

You act as if he is third in command of the mail room's restrooms.

[mtrycraft]

There are direct links to three people on Harman International's home page. Two are Dr. Sidney Harman and Gina Harman. The third is Dr. Floyd Toole.

You act as if he is third in command of the mail room's restrooms.

They have a rest room in the mail room? Arfe you sure? Or, is it down the hall?

I don't see much in that handbook link that is anything of importance towards wires. They are partial to Monster for most likely reason of $$? Certainly no indication of objective superiority. Or, did I miss that?

Wonder who Gina Harman is, daughter? Wife?

[markw]

There are direct links to three people on Harman International's home page. Two are Dr. Sidney Harman and Gina Harman. The third is Dr. Floyd Toole.

You act as if he is third in command of the mail room's restrooms.

From my experience in, not just with, big business, engineering decisions in many cases are outweighed by, and in many cases, driven by the marketing department.

Audio is, after all, a perception driven retail business bowing to the lowest common denominator.

[skeptic]

"First audiophiles caused the downfall of your beloved AR"

The downfall of AR was the fact that the techies who took over from Vilcher knew a lot more about building audio equipment than they did about how to run a profitable company. Their business plan was a failure.

Anone who wants to buy a high end speaker system from Harman International looks at Revel...or Infinity, not JBL.

And BTW, I don't care what happens to Lincoln's sales figures. Anyone who builds a car where it costs $1500 to replace the two headlights doesn't deserve to be in business anyway. Maybe Ford Motor Company will wind up like AR. Nah, no such luck.

[E-Stat]

The downfall of AR was the fact that the techies who took over from Vilcher knew a lot more about building audio equipment than they did about how to run a profitable company. Their business plan was a failure.

That is a perfectly reasonable explanation. I was referring to your previous comments here:

Why didn't audiophiles embrace...?

Anone who wants to buy a high end speaker system from Harman International looks at Revel...or Infinity, not JBL.

Agreed, yet even Chrysler is now getting infused with higher performance M-B technology. Witness the Crossfire. Why not have a lower end product benefit from lessons learned from more capable divisions?

rw

[skeptic]

JBL is targeted at a different market which is NOT a true audiophile market. I think that there has been a lot of dissention and turmoil among the old timers at JBL since Sidney Harman took them over. They have been very resistant to change. They have a heritage of producing speakers for the movie theater industry and were in the vanguard of what was once referred to as "The West Coast Sound." I didn't think that this was a real phenomenon until I read it in Sam's Audio Engineering Handbook but it apparantly was real. Of course, accuracy in live versus recorded terms knows no geographical boundaries. It is fortunate that the revenues from JBL's financial success both in the professional market and in the low to middle price consumer market can be used to finance the research of the likes of Revel. JBL also always liked to have a flagship product which was highly innovative such as the Hartsfield and the Paragon. This latest manifestation is just one more of them which will undoubtedly have a very limited production and appeal. As I recall, there's a fair amount of information about it at the Lansing Heritage Site. Like many companies with such high profile low volume (and maybe zero profit) projects, it's a wonderful reward opportunity for their best engineers to run amok with their wildest ideas, whether they are practical or not. In these cases, it's best for top management to keep a hands off policy and just occasionally peek into what they are doing to let them know they are interested but will not be heavy handed. That is another possible explanation of why O'Toole didn't put a stop to the Monster Cable idea. If Monster Cable did develop something for them, it's my hunch they farmed it out to a Belden or an Alpha, and put their name on it for the prestige of being able to say that they are part of the project. It's good advertising for them as well.

[mtrycraft]

Their R&D department would run rings around Monster Cable's on their worst day. .)

What? Monster has an R&D? I don't believe it.

[skeptic]

Actually they don't research cables, what they research is the audiophile cable market. And in that regard they have been very successful.

[mtrycraft]

Actually they don't research cables, what they research is the audiophile cable market. And in that regard they have been very successful.

Ah, they have a huge marketing department then

Maybe a voodoo department as well?

[woodman]

The owner's manual for Harman International's new JBL K2 S5800 speakers, introduced last year at $18,000 per pair list, not only recommends the use of audiophile cables but points out that these speakers are internally wired with Monster Cable specially designed for JBL. The manual can be found at JBL's web site:

okiemax:
You're not actually suggesting that the use of a specific brand of wire inside a speaker cabinet is somehow going to effect an improvement to the speaker's performance, are you? I sure hope not.

Regarding what Dr. Floyd Toole does or does not believe about the sonic properties (or lack thereof) of different wires and cables, it matters not even a little tiny bit. As markw pointed out in his replies to this thread, it's very seldom that any engineer - or the entire engineering dept. has much of any "say" in final product design and configuration. During the course of my extensive career in consumer electronics, I've had many discussions about this very topic with many engineers from both audio and video companies. They have all said essentially the exact same thing ... it's the MARKETING DEPT. that "drives the bus". The engineers have to sit in the back of the bus - with just about nada,zip,zilch to say about whereinthehell the bus is headed!

[okiemax]

okiemax:
You're not actually suggesting that the use of a specific brand of wire inside a speaker cabinet is somehow going to effect an improvement to the speaker's performance, are you? I sure hope not.

Regarding what Dr. Floyd Toole does or does not believe about the sonic properties (or lack thereof) of different wires and cables, it matters not even a little tiny bit. As markw pointed out in his replies to this thread, it's very seldom that any engineer - or the entire engineering dept. has much of any "say" in final product design and configuration. During the course of my extensive career in consumer electronics, I've had many discussions about this very topic with many engineers from both audio and video companies. They have all said essentially the exact same thing ... it's the MARKETING DEPT. that "drives the bus". The engineers have to sit in the back of the bus - with just about nada,zip,zilch to say about whereinthehell the bus is headed!

You can rest easy, Woodman. It is the speaker owner's manual, not I, that suggests improvment from internal Monster Cable wiring designed for the speaker. I made no suggestion -- just told what was in the manual. And I have no opinion.

I'm not sure I agree with your "back of the bus" generalization about engineers. Are you suggesting engineers have trouble seeing the big picture?

[skeptic]

I think there would be loud protests from the engineering department if the speaker wire actually caused poorer performance. From the look of some of these wires, wiring anything with them would be a step in the wrong direction.

If this is the speaker I've seen recently on the Lansing Heritage website, the one with a super tweeter which "reproduces" sound over 20 Khz, you can see the extent to which JBL has prostituted itself. Some of you may recall an interesting thread appearing here within the last year about the Japanese experiment with just such a tweeter. It was designed to show that even the best intended experiments conducted by the most objective scientists can be flawed. In that experiment as I recall, a professor of electrical engineering intended to demonstrate that reproduction above 20 khz was inaudible. He designed a loudspeaker which performed to well beyond 20 khz and when the signal included components above 20 khz, the students could easily distinguish it from when it didn't. As it turned out, the experiment was fatally flawed because the over 20 khz components were causing distortion within the audible passband. When the experiment was repeated with a separate supertweeter dedicated to the over 20khz spectrum, the expected result was obtained. If JBL is marketing such a speaker, it may be because Sidney Harman is still obsessed with this ultrasonic region. His vacuum tube amplifiers of the 1950s and 1960s routinely had bandwidths to 70Khz and his first solid state venture had a bandwidth of 1 Mhz. He may be rich and successful, but he's also nuts.