The Great Cable Debate

[spacedeckman]

Everybody seems to get so defensive over this topic. In the big scheme of things, would someone please care to explain to me what the big deal is? If I go out and buy a $1k pair of interconnects, and am happy with my purchase, who's business is it anyway.....MINE!!! If I have the money to spend, I can spend it any way I like. If I think that it makes an improvement in my system through whatever comparison method I choose to use, flawed or not, if it makes me happy, it has done it's job. If I recommend that others TRY it and they like it through their flawed comparison methods and have the money to spend, that is also not an invalid choice. If they decide NOT to purchase that product, THAT is also a valid choice.

As for the bagging on Jon Risch, he has a right to express what he finds that works for him. Most of his projects are pretty inexpensive, and if they make someone happier with their system, great. I also don't get the personal attacks against him. I see him as a great person to get other people experimenting. Experimentation leads to more interest which only benefits the audio industry and gets people to get their hands dirty and try other things. That not only benefits the industry, it benefits humanity as a whole. People should learn how to do some things for themselves, we as a society are forgetting that. How showing how he has done some things that worked for him and showing other people how to do them is bad is beyond me. I have posted in the past standing up for him and will continue to do so however infrequently I stop by.

Yes, I have experimented with cables. I have rolled some of my own (my system is wired with homebrew CAT5E interconnect) some of which were dismal failures, the CAT5E stuff works very well. I have compared it to cheap and expensive cables and always seem to gravitate to the CAT5. My boss has a nice little system in his office and I'll bring something in every now and then and we will utilize the dual outputs on his CD player and A/B between them. I have heard stuff that was better in our probably very flawed but useful method, but it tends to be really expensive (we have a group of audiophile people/friends that tend to bring things around) and I'm really cheap. That said, I will admit to having bought some 2nd hand Kimber 4TC speaker wire a couple of months ago. Swapped it in, "deluded" myself into thinking it made my system better but wasn't worth the extra money, and eventually ended up with it anyway. I'm happy, whatzitooya?

Now, do cable companies probably exaggerate the differences from buying their products? Don't even go there, that is the nature of advertising in any product category. Do they profit from the sale of cables...I sure hope so, companies have to profit to survive, the not too long past .com implosion was driven by companies that could never deliver a profit decades out, but investors wanted to hitch a ride on the next "big" thing. The result has been nearly 4 years of economic upheaval precipitated in large part from "the new economy" that didn't really exist, nor could it. Companies build things that people want to buy that they feel will add pleasure to their lives. Does anybody really need a Rolex? Does my wife need a $2500 diamond ring? Jewelry is at least a big of a waste as high end cables, but is it wrong to buy it? The same could be said for many things.

I've already wasted too much time on this topic for my tastes. Suffice it to say: Try it, like it, do it; otherwise, don't.

[Monstrous Mike]

What somebody hears in their own home with their own ears and their own audio system cannot be disputed. However, any actual audible differences should be able to be duplicated under controlled conditions, measured scientifically, and the root cause(s) of those differences clearly explained. Then, this objective testing can be documented and published and should be able to be duplicated by anyone using the same procedures, equipment, etc.

The fact that this has not yet happened (and no one expects any of us to accomplish this at home) is extremely strong circumstantial evidence that reported audible differences are the result of something other than the cables (assuming the cables in question are not damaged and are appropriate for their application).

There are numerous examples of people claiming things that have no basis in science nor any scientific support. The best example are ones that are very difficult to disprove like alien sightings. I mean all we really need is one strand of alien DNA or one shred of an unknown metal. Yet, the claims continue on a daily basis likely because it's plain fun to fantasize that we are not alone.

Once and awhile, science may finally explain something that has been claimed by people but to hope that cable sonics are one of these things is quite a stretch IMHO. There are numerous explanations for people hearing cable differences in their home systems. To conclude that the cables themselves are the cause, even though that would be the most obvious explanation, would require eliminating all of the other causes in a meticulous scientific manner.

The guy who brings the new audio cable home, installs it and then hears a difference is jumping to a conclusion if he thinks the only possible answer is that this new cable does actually sound better. And it is an expensive conclusion at that.

[TinHere]

Everybody seems to get so defensive over this topic. In the big scheme of things, would someone please care to explain to me what the big deal is? If I go out and buy a $1k pair of interconnects, and am happy with my purchase, who's business is it anyway.....MINE!!!

The problem lies in what some people consider the spread of misinformation. Many of the debaters have earned degrees in an area that requires "proof of fact" as opposed to acceptence. Peer review is what distinguishes science from marketing. The arguement isn't whether you enjoy your purchase or not, but rather that if you make claims that they offer improvement you be prepared to back up those claims based on science and not opinion. Preference isn't, or shouldn't be questioned, but "widened the soundstage and increased imaging" etc are things that some people believe can and should be tested before they are accepted as fact. When someone uses unproven/unaccepted "facts" as a premise for an arguement it is incumbant upon those who see the flaws to speak up lest the misinformation be acknowledged as something it is not. Without challenges to self appointed experts many of us without training would just accept the voice from on high as gospel.

Noone is saying not to enjoy what you purchase, they just want others to understand that from a scientific standpoint they might not be necessary to enjoy the music. YMMV.

[happy ears]

Are we alone, I doubt it. If we are alone we should be very careful not to screw up our planet. Do I have any proof none whats so ever, but look at the odds of us being unique. Why would our planet be the only one with lifeforms? Maybe there is a God!

Have A Great Day and enjoy life

[skeptic]

If I go out and buy a $1k pair of interconnects, and am happy with my purchase, who's business is it anyway.....MINE!!!

As for the bagging on Jon Risch, he has a right to express what he finds that works for him. ... I see him as a great person to get other people experimenting. ... People should learn how to do some things for themselves, we as a society are forgetting that. How showing how he has done some things that worked for him and showing other people how to do them is bad is beyond me.

Yes, I have experimented with cables. ... some of which were dismal failures

Now, do cable companies probably exaggerate the differences from buying their products? Don't even go there, that is the nature of advertising in any product category. Do they profit from the sale of cables...I sure hope so.

Whose buisiness is it anyway if you get fleeced by false advertising or expectations the manufacturer or merchant created in your mind through unrealistic claims, inuendos or outright lies? The FTC's that whose. At the very least, ALL of the audiophile cable manufacturers who suggest improved audio performance have come very close to the line of what is legal and what is illegal and most if not all have probably crossed over it into felony land. Whether you are happy or not is irrelevant. Whether they are only too happy to give you your money back is also irrelevant. It's been a long while since I posted excerpts of their rules on what constitutes unfair advertising. Perhaps it's time for another one.

You see Jon Risch as a great person. I see him as a Nazi mind control gestapo enforcing what are clearly censorship rules designed to skew all discussion to create a culture favorable to an industry with nothing of proven value to sell with opinions pretending to unsuspecting newbies that they are giving fair unbiased advice when in reality they are just trying to promote the sale of their unproven products. At least at this site, when someone like happy ears tells you to spend 10 or 15 percent of your budget on audio cables even though he admits he can't hear a difference most of the time, you get to hear another point of view from people like mrtycrafts or me. What can you get from CA where the owner says his mission is to limit discussion to only positive experience with cables?

As for rolling your own, it's too bad if you waste your money weaving gigantic capacitors from cat 5E telephone wire, send your amplifier into spontaneous oscillation and blow it up. Maybe you'll learn your lesson eventually. It's when they start advocating making your own power cords that it really gets frightening. I've read one horror story after another with guys building power cords from coaxial cable, installing ferrite beads on the ground conductors defeating the safety ground, and countless others. It's a miracle there aren't more accidents and deaths. Who suffers and pays for that? Me and you and everybody else in our insurance premiums. That's who.

[happy ears]

What, I’m not allowed to make my own power cords. Oops, don’t tell anyone but in my last job I must have made up 10 miles of power cords over thirteen years. Also, do my own wiring in my house when required, fans, lights etc. Ran a dedicated power cable and breaker for my stereo, this was required as the previous circuit was improperly done. Washing machine on same circuit as recreation (music) room plugs, so I fixed both of them. Had great fun cutting the hole in the drywall for the TV cable and power, then noticed how terrible the drywall job was, so I took all the drywall off one wall. My friend laughed and said another small job turned into a large one. Hey, at least one wall looks like it was done by a top notch professional. Paid the big bucks and bought the proper rated wire, figured that there must be a reason for all those silly numbers, letters and codes. You can buy some pretty descent how to books as well as code books written for those without proper papers. I will put my work up against the pros but I will admit that I am not as fast and efficient as they are. I thought coaxial cable was for my TV signal that’s what I used it for. You know if you want shielded power cords you can buy it off the roll from electrical supply company, ask and you will be rewarded.

Someone once told me all electronics parts have smoke in them and once you let the smoke out they do not work. If this is true, wires most have enormous quantity of smoke in them. I do not recommend that everyone do there own electrical work, if you do not understand hire a pro.


Have A Great Day

[skeptic]

You assume the responsibility for the consequences of your actions. If you make your own power cords, your product is no longer UL listed. If I come to your house amd I am injured because I touched your defective power cord, got a shock, and had to go to the hospital, your insurance won't cover you.

You can legally do electrical work on your own home by technically, you are required to request an inspection by the town's building department to be sure you met the electrical code. Most people don't. Again, if I get hurt at your house because of something I did which should have been perfectly safe and wasn't due to your negligance, your insurance company will not compensate you and when I sue you, I might just wind up owning your house.

[happy ears]

Where I live even it is inspected and approved by the city certified electrican that they employed the insurance will be voided. However the plugs and switches installed by an electrican that says "FOR COPPER USE ONLY" installed on a house that is wired with Aluminum they will only cover you if you did not know. Because I realize that this is incorrect I will be held responsible since I did not have an approved electrican correct this problem. Now I will be honest as my house was used I have no proof that a professional made this error. However the lady down the road that bought her house new and has never touched the electrical system was amased that I found this even with a house inspection. This was easy, hot boxes to the touch and she replied Oh I thought that was normal, some people do not know. Hopefully, she paid someone with the correct qualifications to correct the same problem. The Provincial goverment where I live told me in writing that Aluminum wire has never been used for power, an outright lie. They are trying to cover their butts. Aluminum wire is safe but requires a higher standard of workmanship, it will not allow you to bend the ends one way and the rebend the stripped ends, copper is much more forgiving. Because of workmanship issues Aluminum wire was removed from the electrical code for house and other uses in Canada. We only started using Al wire when the price of copper wire became much more expensive.

I do understand the responsibilities that doing your own work brings. But unlike our politicians I stand behind my work. I agree that those that are not experienced or do not understand should hire a professional. You will be allowed to visit as long as you do not chew on power or extention cords that you see in my house. As well do not take a bath holding the end of a extention cord plugged in. I find it hard to believe what some people have achieved, listening to an AC radio while having a bath is fine. But people have the radio sitting on the tub is very dangerous. If there was a list of every stupid thing someone did to get zapped by power it would be long and you would be forced to say how stupid are some people.

[skeptic]

I do understand the responsibilities that doing your own work brings.

In the United States, a highly litigious society, when a licensed electrician wires a house, manufactures a power cord, or does ANY kind of electrical work, the state acknowledges that he has been trained as an apprentice, passed an exam, and is highly skilled in his field and so awards him the right to be a journeyman. He must take a course every three years when the electrical code changes to be certain he is aware of the current laws. He has been trained to be alert for electrical hazards he encounters in the course of doing his work and avoid creating new ones. If he notices that there is a hazard such as an electrical outlet that is hot to the touch, he will alert the owner and recommend that he or another electrician make repairs to correct the problem regardless of how it was caused. The sole purpose of the National Electrical Code in The United States is to assure electrical safety.

When I or anyone else enters a home, a place of business, or any public accomodation, I have a right to expect that all electrical installations and appliances are in good repair and are safe for normal use. That doesn't mean putting a table radio or a lamp on the ledge of a bathtub filled with water so that it might fall in and electrocute someone. It does mean that if I come in contact with a wire, insert or remove a wall plug, touch the cabinet of an audio amplifier, I will not get shocked or electrocuted because someone jury rigged a power cord with coax or defeated the safety ground of a metal chasis by installing ferrite beads on the ground wire in the mistaken belief that it would improve the sound of his stereo system. It means that if I fall asleep on your sofa, I will not be killed in a fire because an electrical outlet was overloaded and someone put a penny in a fuse box to avoid the nusiance of a fuse blowing or used the wrong wire which was overloaded to install a new outlet.

I don't know what codes exist in Canada but they might be similar to those in most of the US (some places like New York City have their own even stricter electrical codes than the National Electrical Code.) In other countries, they are invariably much laxer in my experience. In the US, were someone who cannot demonstrate their legal qualifications to take it upon himself to do their own work as you put it, they assume all of the financial responsibility for the consequences if their work is inadequate and results in damage to property, injury, or death. Now you know.

[happy ears]

To my understanding electrical codes in Canada are very similar to those in the US. Do not know if they take upgrading exams on a regular basis. I do however agree in codes and in there enforcement, however enforcement is a key word. Now people that remove grounds always make me wonder, why would they do this. Using cables that where designed for a different purpose, coaxial cable wire for power cords. Me thinks I do not want to visit their place. Yes I agree use the proper devise for which it was designed for, I do give credit to people that have the expertise and knowledge in there chosen field. When I need there advise I have no question about hiring them. Came across a piece of rental equipment once that had been modified, just a minor amount of voltage to the case, only 60 volts AC. Damn that was an eye opener, boy was I pissed off and they tried to convince me that it had CSA approved. Never used their equipment again and never will.

Alert is another key word. I have come across educated people that make me wonder. While in the Canadian Military I had a solder that supposedly had two Master Degrees, in eight years he never passed one of my demolition safety precaution tests. It was not my teaching ability because those that I had taught a year early passed the same test without notice. People said that he took basket weaving, however an expert in basking weaving would do better. God, did this man scare me when he was on any of my job sites, there was no job that I could give him that would not result in danger to my troops. If we ever had to go to war we would have been forced to remove him.

Education is not an indication of true intelligence, it is indication of knowledge. Someone with post secondary education that has succeeded in acquiring a diploma or degree has been trained and educated in that particular field. When asked should someone get post secondary education I always say yes, be it a trade, degree or diploma. However education is not a guarantee of employment it is only a stepping stone. Once ran into someone from Newfoundland that had I believe had a grade three education, he could not write read or spell. With these limitations on him, he was forced to memorize everything I taught him. I was truly amazed when I learned about this and even more important convinced him to upgrade his education.

To experiment is fine, to disregard known information and knowledge is different. Changing the electrical codes are unwise and should not be done, that’s why I buy books and pay for courses. Just wish I could say that I never have made a mistake or only made a couple. Ha, that is not going to happen in my lifetime for myself or anyone else. It is safe to come over my house, just don’t step on the cats tail he is getting pretty big. I have never owned an animal that has destroyed any of my belongings, if they did the could have a short life.

Have A great day

[jneutron]

As for the bagging on Jon Risch, he has a right to express what he finds that works for him. Most of his projects are pretty inexpensive, and if they make someone happier with their system, great. I also don't get the personal attacks against him. I see him as a great person to get other people experimenting. Experimentation leads to more interest which only benefits the audio industry and gets people to get their hands dirty and try other things. That not only benefits the industry, it benefits humanity as a whole. People should learn how to do some things for themselves, we as a society are forgetting that. How showing how he has done some things that worked for him and showing other people how to do them is bad is beyond me. I have posted in the past standing up for him and will continue to do so however infrequently I stop by.
.

I agree with you on many points..I believe all should be able to work with hands, making things, fixing things..Knowing how it all works..

I agree that JR has the right to express his opinions as to what works for him.

And, I have praised him here and elsewhere for his diy stuff (for the effort towards diy, without commenting on whether it works or not).

I will not, however, sit idly by when he tells someone they do not know what they are talking about..the last time I saw that, just before Tony started the thread here, JR had just lambasted Tony for his "stupidity" (Note, my words there..JR carefully avoids such blatent outbursts) in his understanding of how wires actually work.

Lets see...how did it go? something along these lines...the electrons don't just travel the wire..they curve this way and that..they respond to vibrations, subtle as they are..they are affected by micro-contact tunneling..there are millions upon millions of wire to wire contacts that make and break..the current dives from one wire to another constantly..there are thousands of grain boundary collisions that may be audible..Piezo generated electricity is mucking up the black background.. motor generator effects cause the electrons to sway..

And, if you cannot hear a difference...it is because your system lacks the resolving power to be able to hear it..

And, if you do not believe this..you are a naysayer..

All of my attempts to discuss electron-lattice phonon interaction, /e/m based skin theory, B-dot error generation, order of magnitude based energy calculations (both piezo and "motor"), are dissed...obviously I lack the intelligence to understand what is really going on in the wires.

Lack of understanding is not a crime..using one's position to forward one's agenda, while hiding under a censorship "blanket"..should be exposed for what it is..

"switch to moderator mode"

Space: perhaps when you learn what is really going on in the wires, when you decide to open your mind to the possibilities, then we will be able to have an intelligent conversation..For now, it is clear to me that you are a troll, you've learned nothing, and this is a warning to you that this kind of behaviour will not be tolerated. If you continue along these lines, you will be banned from this forum..

Cheers, John

PS..if you take any offense to what was stated after "switch to moderator mode", I willl have to smack you through the internet..I work for the government, we can do that...

Seriously, that was but a small taste of what he does..

[daviethek]

Life is too short. thats my technical evaluation of cables. Before we were preoccupied with
cables, we enjoyed music. The same folks that critize cables that cost more than 10 bucks are the same ones that swear by $5,000 CD players. Some of the best sounding systems I have ever owned sounded that way because I had decent gear and wasn't obsessive /compulsive. They also sounded better when I was out of money to upgrade them, figure that out Sigmund. People buy what they will and are thrilled with it. Expensive calbes are no more of a canard than practically anything else where the possibility of new thrills is the game and not the score.

Everybody seems to get so defensive over this topic. In the big scheme of things, would someone please care to explain to me what the big deal is? If I go out and buy a $1k pair of interconnects, and am happy with my purchase, who's business is it anyway.....MINE!!! If I have the money to spend, I can spend it any way I like. If I think that it makes an improvement in my system through whatever comparison method I choose to use, flawed or not, if it makes me happy, it has done it's job. If I recommend that others TRY it and they like it through their flawed comparison methods and have the money to spend, that is also not an invalid choice. If they decide NOT to purchase that product, THAT is also a valid choice.

As for the bagging on Jon Risch, he has a right to express what he finds that works for him. Most of his projects are pretty inexpensive, and if they make someone happier with their system, great. I also don't get the personal attacks against him. I see him as a great person to get other people experimenting. Experimentation leads to more interest which only benefits the audio industry and gets people to get their hands dirty and try other things. That not only benefits the industry, it benefits humanity as a whole. People should learn how to do some things for themselves, we as a society are forgetting that. How showing how he has done some things that worked for him and showing other people how to do them is bad is beyond me. I have posted in the past standing up for him and will continue to do so however infrequently I stop by.

Yes, I have experimented with cables. I have rolled some of my own (my system is wired with homebrew CAT5E interconnect) some of which were dismal failures, the CAT5E stuff works very well. I have compared it to cheap and expensive cables and always seem to gravitate to the CAT5. My boss has a nice little system in his office and I'll bring something in every now and then and we will utilize the dual outputs on his CD player and A/B between them. I have heard stuff that was better in our probably very flawed but useful method, but it tends to be really expensive (we have a group of audiophile people/friends that tend to bring things around) and I'm really cheap. That said, I will admit to having bought some 2nd hand Kimber 4TC speaker wire a couple of months ago. Swapped it in, "deluded" myself into thinking it made my system better but wasn't worth the extra money, and eventually ended up with it anyway. I'm happy, whatzitooya?

Now, do cable companies probably exaggerate the differences from buying their products? Don't even go there, that is the nature of advertising in any product category. Do they profit from the sale of cables...I sure hope so, companies have to profit to survive, the not too long past .com implosion was driven by companies that could never deliver a profit decades out, but investors wanted to hitch a ride on the next "big" thing. The result has been nearly 4 years of economic upheaval precipitated in large part from "the new economy" that didn't really exist, nor could it. Companies build things that people want to buy that they feel will add pleasure to their lives. Does anybody really need a Rolex? Does my wife need a $2500 diamond ring? Jewelry is at least a big of a waste as high end cables, but is it wrong to buy it? The same could be said for many things.

I've already wasted too much time on this topic for my tastes. Suffice it to say: Try it, like it, do it; otherwise, don't.