The Great Cable Debate

[spacedeckman]

I've had a Bud or two in my day and no hot women have gathered around me in a bar. Did it improve my life?, Nope, but I wasn't as thirsty afterwards, that's why I bought the beer. I bought my car because it did what I wanted and provided what I needed, not because I wanted to have a different image of myself. I would really like to own a BMW, not because it's a status symbol, but what it is as a car. If people are so brain dead that they believe what they see in an ad, they deserve to get fleeced.

CAT5 is fairly capacitive, but I have not suffered any dire consequences, meaning that it isn't capacitive enough in the lengths I'm using that it really matters. If something blows up, it's my fault. BTW, Yes, I even rolled some power cords, but don't worry, I used 12/3 SJT and suitable ends. I know it didn't make any difference, but I liked the result and built more.

Jon Risch isn't a Nazi...I've been to the meetings. I didn't like the speech you gave last week though

Space

[skeptic]

Jon Risch isn't a Nazi
Space

My words describing Jon Risch as a Nazi mind control gestapo were not chosen lightly but very carefully and I believe that is an accurate description of him.

Mr. Risch according to his claim has been afforded the enormous benefits and priveleges conferred upon him by an education from an accredited engineering school. He had the opportunity for at least four years and even far longer if he cared to maintain a relationship with any of his professors to freely discuss ANY topic he desired from any point of view. He could ask any questions, express any opinion, and he was taken seriously and treated openly no matter how absurd, naive, or ignorant he may have seemed at the time because that is the nature of a technical education in the United States today and because he was viewed potentially as a future collegue. Yet he is a willing participant in depriving other people, most of whom had no such comparable opportunity, the same rights on even a miniscule basis. I am of course refering to his enforcement of the anti DBT rule at CA and his proactive efforts to further the purpose of that rule by extending his censorship to deleting postings whose opinions he doesn't like even if they haven't violated that rule. Why does he do this? For the same purpose as any tyrannical ideologue, the imposition of a dogma to the exclusion of all others by perpetuating a fabric of distortions, half truths, and outright lies while stiffling all opposition. In this case the dogma may seem relatively benign because its goal is merely the maximizing of financial gain rather than claims of racial superiority and enslavement through military conquest. But the principle is the same. The censorship he exercises at the behest of others is the intellectual equivalent of the jackbooted stormtrooper kicking in the door, beating up the occupants, killing them, seizeing their property and turning them into non entities. It is utterly reprehensible to me.

So while you may call him a nice guy if you care to, to me he is evey bit the NAZI in his own little world and so is anyone who will not allow someone else to express that opinion including the moderator of this board if it comes to that.

[spacedeckman]

That was humor, by the way, not the purported attempt at censorship. You gotta lighten up a bit or you'll be taking a dirt nap before your time. A body isn't meant to be eaten away from the inside, and your ticker isn't too happy about the arrangement either.

Take a deep breath, go put on some music, and just enjoy it for a while. It's too early for a cold one, but, there is still a full weekend left.

Space

[happy ears]

Never to early for a cool one. What about those that work the night shift, should they not be aloud to a have a cool one after a hard nights work. Nothing wrong with using 12/3 SJT, can't rememeber what the "T" stands for. As long as one uses the proper cables for what they are designed for I see no problem. Have you tried shielded power cords?

Being the moderator and a debater on the same issue on the same forum demands a high standard. I think it is wise to avoid situations like this, it is the same as being the policeman and the judge. Those that can seperate them, power to them, however most will fail being in such a conflict, just human nature.

If CA wishes to and they can enforce the no DBT rule as it is their site. However deleting someone's post because you disagree is unacceptable and low handed. As well this is the cable site so I think it is time to move on, however feel free to start a new thread. Debate and discussion is to be encouraged.

Have A Great Day and maybe I need a cool one to wash down breakfast

[skeptic]

I have not ever seen a problem with a moderator as a participant except at CA.

As for their anti DBT rule, in the explanation of their policy, they acknowledge that DBTs are the only way to accurately determine if there are audible differences, even subtle ones between components such as cables. Then why don't they allow it? Their stated position is that it leads inevitably to endless flame wars which go nowhere. However, having visited there occasionally when someone here posted that something was going on there demonstrated to me that they have plenty of flame wars, in fact far far more than we have here and we don't have an anti DBT rule. Anyone who posts here giving a blanket endorsement of an audio cable will be challenged to explain much more than just his preference. He will have to demostrate that he reached a valid conclusion or at least that there is some reason for credibility for his claims and that he's more than just a shill or advertiser looking for new customers. That's not what you get at CA. The only logical conclusion I could reach to understand why they have that rule is that they don't want people to conclude that these cables aren't of any value. In fact, their owner, Rod according to PC Tower's posting some months back had proposed a mission statement restricting postings to only "positive experiences" with cables. Seeing that among their sponsors are cable manufacturers and retailers, I put two and two together and came to the conclusion that what they really want is a protected site to promote the cable industry, not an open discussion or debate. Well that's how I see it.

I have never used shielded power cables. Why would that do anything for me? I have a large house with many hundreds of feet of unsheilded Romex in the walls. What would shielding three feet of wire between my wall outlet and my amplifier gain me. Besides, I have no RF or other noise in my sound system. So what is there for me to be shielded from?

[happy ears]

It is good to hear that most moderators do not have a problem being a debater. As long as they keep the two functions separated there should not be a problem. However when they use the power as the moderator to their advantage this becomes underhanded and unacceptable. If this is the exemption we will have to live with it but if it gets out of hand something should be down. Hopefully we will not have to deal with the latter.

Endless flame wars and name calling achieves nothing for anyone involved with this site. Well maybe some humor at the expense of the debaters. Limiting cable discussions to positive experiences is not debating or discussing an issue, this is a forum for discussions. If I am allowed to comment on my positive experiences I will also comment on my negative experiences, as well as when I note no differences. Anyone that makes blanket statements tend to raise red flags, also anyone that keep pushing one manufacture’s name and product is also suspect.

As I have noted and stated that I have found some differences with interconnects, some better some worse and at other times no differences between similar products. As well, I attempt to explain testing procedures that where used. Using the tape out on my integrated amplifier has a larger affect than the cables do. I suspect that there is an operational amplifier in this circuit and I use the word suspect as I have never opened it and checked.

Now, if I am to explain why these differences exist, we will need a front end loader because a shovel will be tool small to clean up all the bs. Having a grade 9 electricity course that I took 30 years ago does not make me qualified to offer an explanation. I have read some information on this topic, some of it makes sense, a lot of it is above my level of understanding and some of it sounds like bs. At my limited level of knowledge on this topic I do not appreciate reading garbage, it wastes my time!

I also understand that many people will not hear the differences that I do, there can be many reasons for this. First off they might not hear the differences, do not care about the differences, are unwilling to pay for the differences or cannot afford the differences. I have never considered myself to have golden ears, if I did some thief would steal them. I do believe that I hear the differences, as other audio nuts like me tend to hear similar differences and this is a very vague statement. I wish I didn’t hear the differences as small as they may be at times, maybe I need not to chase audio nirvana. I do not or will not challenge or criticize those that do not hear a difference. I can only tell you what differences I may or may not hear.

Have to agree with you, how can 3 feet of shielded power cord affect the sound of any audio component. I can understand shielded interconnects with there low level signals, but not power cords. There is 25 feet of standard electrical cable (nomex?) between the circuit breaker panel and the plug my stereo is plugged into. In fact I only tried this when I noticed my MGE UPS used shielded SJT 14/3 power cord. Did not notice any change in sound using a shielded power cord on my CD player. However, using different power cords on my integrated amplifier did show some differences but this may not all be the result of the shield. Mentioned this to my friend and again he had some choice words to explain what I told him, come on over and see for yourself. We preformed a simple test, I just plugged in three different power cords into the integrated amplifier, he could not see what cord. The stock cord was16/3 SJT, the UPS power cord shielded SJT 14/3 and one from an audio store being double shielded and 12/3 gauge. He guessed all three cords by the sound and even commented that he thought the stock cord know sounded substandard, yet the week earlier he thought it sounded fine. The most distinct difference that was noted that when there was no music being played the background sounded darker (blacker) never understood this statement previously. Playing music seamed to have the affect of being faster and more accurate, the difference between the MGE shielded power cord and the exotic audio store cable was small. This differences could be the result of the heavier gauge wires used in each power cord or a combination of the heavier gauge and better shielding. Should there be a difference, not with my limited knowledge always believed wire was wire, is it not. You want an explanation from me you better get a big shovel, a powered shovel would work the best because it will be thick.

Then the price subject was discussed, his reply was that he could justify the cost increase between the stock cable and the MGE shielded power cord. However, he could not justify the tenfold increase for the exotic audio power cord, although it was the best the price did not justify the improvement. So now again we have noted differences with the integrated amplifier and no differences with the CD player. Positive and negative results, will they work for you. My answer there is maybe, will it be better or worse maybe, will it work with all your components it didn’t for me. Is it worth the money, I have always stated fancy audio cables are grossly overpriced. Can I justify the price of the MGE power cord, yep no problem there, finding them is the biggest job. And, as always if you do not hear a difference do not spend your money, this applies to spending ten a hundred or a thousand dollars. I still will recommend purchasing Radio Shack interconnect over what is supplied with stock equipment, reliability is an issue with me.

Gee, another long winded reply. The scenery may be pretty but having the snow fall everyday or two is becoming a pain in the ass. Makes driving to town extra slow and long, maybe all right for sex but a pain when one needs to drive to town. Thank god that I have my music to sing along to, but I have noticed a problem with one of the mid bass drivers, it has become scratchy and does not play very loud. I think that there may be some water damage to the voice coil, will need to check it out if it warms up.

Have A Great Day and enjoy the music life is to short.

Happy Ears

[Monstrous Mike]

[QUOTE=happy ears

As I have noted and stated that I have found some differences with interconnects, some better some worse and at other times no differences between similar products. As well, I attempt to explain testing procedures that where used.

Have A Great Day and enjoy the music life is to short.

Happy Ears[/QUOTE]

Can't wait....

[poneal]

If it makes ne one feel better, I use rat shack cables too.

[kapsley]

I haven't had a chance to visit AR for quite some time, but it seems the Cable Wars still endure. Mtry, Skeptic, MM, keep fighting the good fight! When I got into higher end audio about 10 years ago, it would have been easy to get sucked into the "your system will sound better" arguement; reading rational posts at AR probably saved me lots of $$$ (which I spent on music).