aftermarket power chords

[TerryB]

Ah, so it's all about empirical measurement, i see.

Ok, try this.

Phone up the customer services department of B&W - Steve is a good bloke there. This is a company who have spent probably millions on R&D, and who produce some of the most coveted speakers in the world.

Talk to him about the mid range centre cone on the Nautilus 801/2. In their OWN words, the aluminium one works (ie sounds) better that the plastic one, EVEN THOUGH they cannot measure any difference using monitoring equipment. Their words, not mine. Phone them, ask. And i've owned 802, and it's provable time and time again, with blindfolds, whatever you want.

Open your mind, Chas, the human ear is one of the most sensitive measuring devices ever created. I don't listen for test results, i listen for music. Which i find helps.

Tel

[E-Stat]

E-Stat, if your cable has reduced the noise floor, measure the improvement. has it gone down from -100dB to -103dB? I really would like someone to measure it and tell me.

Did you read the analysis by Ole Lund Christensen I linked to? Did you try the experiment with an AM radio where anyone with any CDP can hear the RF interference?

rw

[Chas Underhay]

Did you read the analysis by Ole Lund Christensen I linked to?rw

Yes, hence the reference to noise from rectifiers moving back through the transformer.

Did you try the experiment with an AM radio where anyone with any CDP can hear the RF interference?rw

Didn't need to it's a radio tuner for Christ's sake, that is exactly what I would expect to happen. If you bought any marine instrument, the handbook would state minimum mounting distances from radio equipment and compasses. This isn't new stuff

I can fully understand why some people may prefer the sound of a Bosendorfer to a Stienway or visa versa and I am fully aware that would not necessarily be definable in a technically measurable sense, I'm not that bl00dy pedantic.

However statements have been made regarding things like reduction in noise floor; now that would easily be measurable.

Noise from rectifiers moving back through transformers would ,if it occours be both measurable and correctable.

I've heard things like cables reducing RFI; that would easily be measurable.

People have made statements about cable not passing sufficient detail; well if it doesn't it's probably some form of attenuation which would be measurable.

If you look at RF or microwave cables in any elecronic components catalogue they will state materials of construction, capacitance, impedance and rates of attenuation at specific frequencies per unit legnth.

Now it's time to cut the bull, the industry needs to find out if, why and by how much. No other industry would be taken seriously with so little data. But there again no other industry has that many followers who want to believe apart from relegion.

[Chas Underhay]

Ah, so it's all about empirical measurement, i see.

Ok, try this.

Phone up the customer services department of B&W - Steve is a good bloke there. This is a company who have spent probably millions on R&D, and who produce some of the most coveted speakers in the world.

Talk to him about the mid range centre cone on the Nautilus 801/2. In their OWN words, the aluminium one works (ie sounds) better that the plastic one, EVEN THOUGH they cannot measure any difference using monitoring equipment. Their words, not mine. Phone them, ask. And i've owned 802, and it's provable time and time again, with blindfolds, whatever you want.

Open your mind, Chas, the human ear is one of the most sensitive measuring devices ever created. I don't listen for test results, i listen for music. Which i find helps.

Tel

I remember those b*ggers when they used to be called Bowers and Wilkins. I remember one of their speakers from about 1970 that used a 12" moving coil bass unit and an electrostatic mid and HF unit, seem to remember it being available in a wood cabinet as well as a very futeristic looking one. Don't think they performed as good as they looked though but that's history.

I can understand why B&W may have torouble measuring the improvement with their aluminium coned speakers because they have got to use a mike in an anechoic chamber. This type of measuring will have far more limitations than hooking up a scope to various points of a circuit.

I feel from some of the statements you have made like "Steve is a good bloke there. This is a company who have spent probably millions on R&D, and who produce some of the most coveted speakers in the world" and the way you talked about the geezer who services the Levinson kit that you really do want to believe and become a desciple.

But trust nobody Terry assume that none of them are "good blokes" assume they are all B'stards who just want your money and are going to spin you an Emperor's New Clothes yarn. Then, when you really do hear an improvement you can be pleasantly supprised, you know that it's for real and not at other peoples suggestion and can then give full consideration to opening your wallet.

[E-Stat]

If you bought any marine instrument, the handbook would state minimum mounting distances from radio equipment and compasses. This isn't new stuff

What then is the handbook stated minimum mounting distance between CD players and any amplification stages?

Current metrics do not fully characterize the performance envelope of audio components.

rw

[TerryB]

Chas i'm no lemming believe me. But it's nice when you meet and talk to people in the industry who cut through the BS, and are willing to admit what works and what doesn't. B&W (yes, still Bowers and Wilkins) didn't even charge me for those aluminium cones - they were just concerned that i'd get the best possible performance from the speakers. They didn't need to do that. They certainly didn't need to admit that they were perplexed as to why one worked better than the other, in spite of the expert advice you're handing out to an established speaker manufacturer.

There has to be some reason why you've come to rely on tangible results to guide your ears, and no doubt you'll expand on that in another post, but believe me, i'd *much* rather be a disciple to what my ears are telling me rather than what a bunch of statistics tell me i *should* be hearing. Music isn't about test results or any such nonsense, it's about emotion and involvement. I *know* what works for me, and i'm more than happy to admit when something doesn't perform as i'd hoped or how i was told it would. Power cords can and DO make a difference. I know you don't like the fact, but it IS a fact. But at least you can save yourself several hundred pounds on the improvements they can bring, given that there isn't a whole raft of written data to back up the evidence i suppose. You're defensive on this subject to a tee, it's just getting a little tedious, in all honesty.

T

[Chas Underhay]

E- Stat Personally I've never seen anything in a modern CD player handbook stating minimum proximities. However I distinctly remember the hand books for the Quad 33 / 303 / FM3 (came out late 60s) stating minimum proximities and warning of the consequencies of not adhering to it. So perhaps a little more honest and proffessional approach is required nowadays.

Chas i'm no lemming believe me. But it's nice when you meet and talk to people in the industry who cut through the BS, and are willing to admit what works and what doesn't. B&W (yes, still Bowers and Wilkins) didn't even charge me for those aluminium cones - they were just concerned that i'd get the best possible performance from the speakers. They didn't need to do that. They certainly didn't need to admit that they were perplexed as to why one worked better than the other, in spite of the expert advice you're handing out to an established speaker manufacturer.

There has to be some reason why you've come to rely on tangible results to guide your ears, and no doubt you'll expand on that in another post, but believe me, i'd *much* rather be a disciple to what my ears are telling me rather than what a bunch of statistics tell me i *should* be hearing. Music isn't about test results or any such nonsense, it's about emotion and involvement. I *know* what works for me, and i'm more than happy to admit when something doesn't perform as i'd hoped or how i was told it would. Power cords can and DO make a difference. I know you don't like the fact, but it IS a fact. But at least you can save yourself several hundred pounds on the improvements they can bring, given that there isn't a whole raft of written data to back up the evidence i suppose. You're defensive on this subject to a tee, it's just getting a little tedious, in all honesty.T

"Music" may not be about test results but the design and manufacture of quality musical instruments and sound equipment relies heavily on it. Ask your good friends at B&W.

Not sure if it is me or you others being defensive. Personally, I've never heard any difference in mains cables, it's not like you can switch between them like you can two CD players so it makes comparison dificult. So all I'm asking somebody to do; is analyse it and measure it and don't tell me that a reduction in noise floor can't be measured.

It's like the life after death argument, ask some who believes it to prove it and see what answer they give.

[Bernd]

Hi Guys,

Good exchange going on.
I just think that you can't measure everything. When I changed all my Mains cables in one go to the Kimber PK10 and PK14 Palladian I heard a distinct difference in sound, that to these ears was an improvement. I couldn't say what that would be if you would only change one Powercord.
However the biggest improvement came when I installed a spur only for the Audio and invested in an Isotek Titan and Minisub.
So what do I know. It sounds better to me for doing these changes and am pleased I did that.
But I also see Chas' point. These things are highly overpriced because there are so many believers.
You could go on forever i.e. does the stand make a difference?
Tried many not heard one yet that sounds different from the next.
My 0.02 cts.

Peace

Bernd

[TerryB]

I'm defensive to the point that i'm defending the fact that these things CAN make a difference, *regardless* of what some test certificate might suggest. And it's what happens in our ears that's the important thing, nothing else. I've heard a difference, many others have heard a difference. Whether it's a "reduction in noise floor" i have absolutely no idea. In some ways i can draw an analogy with tuning a car, something else i'm heavily involved with. Once you reach a certain point, each subsequent tweak yields proportionately smaller results, but the overall effect, on the right day, just comes together perfectly, and each little improvement contributes to the overall performance. It's the same with hi-fi. I wouldn't dare suggest that mains cables are the lynch-pin of a system, but they DO have a part to play, there's no question in my mind. And to clarify, they're not my "very good friends" at B&W at all, in fact i'm still narked at them for not telling me that the 802 wouldn't be suited to my Chord amplification, but that's another story.

Bernd - yes i totally concur about the pricing of these things. In fact in Hi-Fi Choice this month there's a letter asking for a review of the leading power cords, which the editor declines to do on the basis that he doesn't want to make it appear that these things are of greater importance than they really are. Which i broadly agree with, especially in a magazine aimed at the budget end, where money can definitely be put to better uses. But there are certainly more companies now who are producing these things, possibly a case of jumping on the bandwagon, so either the manufacturers also recognise the sonic benefits or they're also putting their corporate reputations on the line by producing something that doesn't work. Like all cables, there will be some that do the job, some that don't, but hopefully the high prices will start to come down.

T

[Bernd]

Well said Mr.T.

I think we just need to enjoy what we have. I am sure different people hear things differently.
Also priority,never mind cost, plays an important part. If a powercord cost as much as somebodies entire Rig there will be questions asked. And you're right in the budget sector the money can be spent better.However since it is electricity what we are listening to, it does play a part how we treat that.
I plugged one of my Kimber Powercords in the Coffee maker and guess what, the coffee tests a lot better. Only joking.

Peace

Bernd

[E-Stat]

...it's not like you can switch between them like you can two CD players so it makes comparison dificult.

Actually, that is exactly what many folks are able to do. Each of my components (one exception) has an IEC jack allowing for the easy swapping of cords.

rw

[Chas Underhay]

Couldn't get back last night - blues gig.

Good morning Terry, do you remember this one:

But on my main system, where i have Russ Andrews hi-current Powercords throughout, i'm really not so sure they make the biggest difference in the world, maybe because the equipment is of a much higher quality to begin with and therefore less susceptible to differences in mains leads.

However! I've been advised that all of these leads WILL come into their own as and when i have a seaparate spur installed from the fusebox specifically for the hi-fi, installed with decent woven, shielded mains cable. So if the electrician who's visiting next week tells me it will be possible to do at reasonable cost, i'll let you know if this theory holds true once the work is complete!Tel

Then a little later:

Marvellous. I changed the power c(h)ord on my PSL330 to a Wattgate 350 termintaed high current PowerKord and the sound is definitely yet another notch up the sweetness scale. Without a doubt.

Oh how i *wish* this wasn't the case, for Chas's sake if nothing else... Tel

To sum up, one 'so called' expert has sold you a product with which you clearly not impressed, has not only ESCAPED the shortcoming but convinced you it will be only OK after you buy a load more cable from him and run a seperate spur. Remember at this point I recommended that you start becomong suspicious.

You have now found a product that you were impressed with without installing a seperate spur, so that doesn't quite stack up with what you were led to believe in the first place does it?

Best case scenario is that you have wasted money on the first power lead and learned that people aren't necessarilly telling you all of the truth all of the time and also learned that they may not be as expert as they make out.

A meaningful technical specification may have enabled you to discount the original cable in the first place.

Bernd, good morning Sir

I think you can see where I coming from, It is all ***king overpriced.

I've looked at that Kimber Pallidian cable on the web, I'm prepared to accept that it appears to work well but at around a thousand bucks a time, that crazy. Does it really come in a hardwood case? because that will be costing you another $200 at least. Let's see what you get for your money; 2 audiophile? gade Wattgate connectors which retail for $80 each and the cable appears to cost $10 per foot judging by the difference in cost betwen 4' and 6' legnths. So by some very simple arithmetic and excluding the sausage in the middle that comes out at $200 or about £120 per 4' cable. So what is in that sausage in the middle? A filter/suppressor I suspect and it's a bl**dy expensive one isn't it..

So what I'm saying to you audiophiles is if you believe you hear an improvement fine but for Christ's sake get inquisitive and start questioning why. Surely someone in the business can aquire one of these cables, compare it with a standard cable, measure its physical properties, resistance capacitance etc and if there really are improvements in noise floor measure that as well. Then ,oh horror of horrors, cut the dammned thing up and find out what really is in the sausage. Also see if there is any difference between an $80 wattgate connector and a good industrial grade one for about $10. Analyse sience and technology and debunk myths.

There are only a few things that I can think of that could make any difference with leads.

1. Filtering/suppression.
2. Screening.
3. Conductor quality.
4. Insulation type.
5. Connector integrety

So after some semi scientific investigation, you could probably make up leads that were every bit as good as Kimber Palladians for a minute fraction of the price.

Good morning E-Stat

I probably didn't make myself clear when I talked about A-B comparisons. I meant 2 CD players playing the same recording at the same time and fed in to the same pre-amp so that you can instantaneously switch between one and the other, much like comparing the source with the recording on a three head tape deck using the tape monitor switch. Stopping, unplugging and restarting is too slow to give an accurate enough comparison.

Al the best

Chas

[TerryB]

Bloody hell you don't let it lie, do you?!!

Chas, improved mains cables DO and HAVE made a difference. As i said, not the *biggest* difference, but a difference. The chap at Levinson, the chaps at Heatherdale and a whole raft of other advocates, who have NO involvement in selling me a mains spur, tell me that these slight improvements will become *significant* improvements once a separate spur is installed. It really is as simple as that. But somehow i don't think it's going to be, is it..?


Tel

[Bernd]

Hi Chas,
How was the gig and who did you go and see?

I am with you on the expense its bl**dy expensive, and no doubt somebody somewhere gets rich. But think about it if all the parts on a Mercedes are added up that's nowhere near the amount the car sells at. If one is so inclined one can build his own car.
After 20 years of small upgrades and sideways steps I wanted either to stop and downgrade or do one last upgrade. So my wife asked me how much it would be to get the rig that would satisfy me. Figure mentioned-helmet put on- but wonder oh wonder no fall out just"Do it this once and then enjoy it". So I did hence the expensive Kimbers. I think this cable works really well in my system and yes I agree with you 100% it's way overpriced. But I wanted it and I got it. End of story.
I am now so satisfied with my set up that upgrading doesn't even enter into it anymore. I sort of rediscovered why I started this in the first place and am thoroughly enjoy my time listening to the music. I am still convinced that the biggest improvement came when I added the Isotek Titan and Minisub.
Anyway I am enjoying what I have got and I hope that everybody else will share that feeling and get to where they want to be.
Shooting day tomorrow so look forward to come home all tired and wet and cold. Fire on,bottle of red and some discs spinning.Ahhh bliss.

Peace

Bernd

[Chas Underhay]

Before you fly off the handle, read ALL of the post CAREFULLY.

I am no longer suggesting that you do not install a spur thats totally down to you.

I'm merely suggesting that people think about things and don't implicitly believe everything they are told by so called experts.

And that's my final comment on it

[Chas Underhay]

Hi Bernd

The blues gig was at a local pub they have them every week although I don't go every week but it is a jam session. some of the players come quite a distance it's a good night but could be a bit repetitive if you went too often.

If you are now happy with your system and can forget about it and use it for playing music, you have achieved your goal and thats great.

I'd like to have a look inside your Isotek Titan and Minisub sometime, as well as to really analyse one of those cables.

Like the sound of the shooting and the apres shooting tomorrow, I normally go to my boat at the weekend.

Perhaps one day we can swap a day shooting with you for a day fishing on my boat.

All the best and have a good one

Chas

[ruadmaa]

Couldn't get back last night - blues gig.

Good morning Terry, do you remember this one:



Then a little later:



To sum up, one 'so called' expert has sold you a product with which you clearly not impressed, has not only ESCAPED the shortcoming but convinced you it will be only OK after you buy a load more cable from him and run a seperate spur. Remember at this point I recommended that you start becomong suspicious.

You have now found a product that you were impressed with without installing a seperate spur, so that doesn't quite stack up with what you were led to believe in the first place does it?

Best case scenario is that you have wasted money on the first power lead and learned that people aren't necessarilly telling you all of the truth all of the time and also learned that they may not be as expert as they make out.

A meaningful technical specification may have enabled you to discount the original cable in the first place.

Bernd, good morning Sir

I think you can see where I coming from, It is all ***king overpriced.

I've looked at that Kimber Pallidian cable on the web, I'm prepared to accept that it appears to work well but at around a thousand bucks a time, that crazy. Does it really come in a hardwood case? because that will be costing you another $200 at least. Let's see what you get for your money; 2 audiophile? gade Wattgate connectors which retail for $80 each and the cable appears to cost $10 per foot judging by the difference in cost betwen 4' and 6' legnths. So by some very simple arithmetic and excluding the sausage in the middle that comes out at $200 or about £120 per 4' cable. So what is in that sausage in the middle? A filter/suppressor I suspect and it's a bl**dy expensive one isn't it..

So what I'm saying to you audiophiles is if you believe you hear an improvement fine but for Christ's sake get inquisitive and start questioning why. Surely someone in the business can aquire one of these cables, compare it with a standard cable, measure its physical properties, resistance capacitance etc and if there really are improvements in noise floor measure that as well. Then ,oh horror of horrors, cut the dammned thing up and find out what really is in the sausage. Also see if there is any difference between an $80 wattgate connector and a good industrial grade one for about $10. Analyse sience and technology and debunk myths.

There are only a few things that I can think of that could make any difference with leads.

1. Filtering/suppression.
2. Screening.
3. Conductor quality.
4. Insulation type.
5. Connector integrety

So after some semi scientific investigation, you could probably make up leads that were every bit as good as Kimber Palladians for a minute fraction of the price.

Good morning E-Stat

I probably didn't make myself clear when I talked about A-B comparisons. I meant 2 CD players playing the same recording at the same time and fed in to the same pre-amp so that you can instantaneously switch between one and the other, much like comparing the source with the recording on a three head tape deck using the tape monitor switch. Stopping, unplugging and restarting is too slow to give an accurate enough comparison.

Al the best

Chas

You are offering some excellent advice Chas, I honestly hope some people use their brain and don't fall for all the advertising hipe. People will be more than glad to sell you anything.

Incidentally, if anyone out there really wants excellent advice on just about all phases of electronics, do a search for "Woodman". He used to post on this forum and as far as I can tell was one of the most knowledgable people I had ever seen post on forums.

[Chas Underhay]

You are offering some excellent advice Chas, I honestly hope some people use their brain and don't fall for all the advertising hipe. People will be more than glad to sell you anything.

Incidentally, if anyone out there really wants excellent advice on just about all phases of electronics, do a search for "Woodman". He used to post on this forum and as far as I can tell was one of the most knowledgable people I had ever seen post on forums.

Thank you Sir

Thought it was just falling on deaf ears at first then eventually starting wondering if it was me that was going mad.

I remember Woodman, I'll have to do that search.

All the best

Chas

[E-Stat]

There are only a few things that I can think of that could make any difference with leads.

1. Filtering/suppression.
2. Screening.
3. Conductor quality.
4. Insulation type.
5. Connector integrety

Yes.

So after some semi scientific investigation, you could probably make up leads that were every bit as good as Kimber Palladians for a minute fraction of the price.

That's what Mr. Neutrino says he can do, but declines to reveal his secret.

Good morning E-Stat

Good morning kind sir.

Stopping, unplugging and restarting is too slow to give an accurate enough comparison.

Presuming of course that you believe all audible differences are detectable in a quick, audio cowboy fashion. Over thirty years of comparative listening teaches me otherwise. Evidently, we have different points of reference.

rw

[Chas Underhay]

Presuming of course that you believe all audible differences are detectable in a quick, audio cowboy fashion. Over thirty years of comparative listening teaches me otherwise. Evidently, we have different points of reference.rw

When I wrote about instantaneously switching between one and the other, much like comparing the source with the recording on a three head tape deck using the tape monitor switch I didn't intend it to be interpreted that the test be conducted in a quick, audio cowboy fashion. If the differences are very small it could still take for ever

My point was that the time delay in stopping, unplugging and restarting requires that the tester relies too much on memory of the previous sound whilst analysing the sound currently playing. I would therefore still conclude that the method is too slow to give a totally accurate comparison.

[E-Stat]

My point was that the time delay in stopping, unplugging and restarting requires that the tester relies too much on memory of the previous sound whilst analysing the sound currently playing. I would therefore still conclude that the method is too slow to give a totally accurate comparison.

I understand your point and disagree. My experience supports the converse using familiar content.

rw

[Chas Underhay]

I understand your point and disagree. My experience supports the converse using familiar content.rw

From a totally practical point of view, when the comparison of the sound between A and B becomes that difficult and all other things equal (build quality etc) surely it is time to return to the real world and either buy or recommend the most cost effective option.

[E-Stat]

From a totally practical point of view, when the comparison of the sound between A and B becomes that difficult and all other things equal (build quality etc) surely it is time to return to the real world and either buy or recommend the most cost effective option.

May you analyze the data to your heart's content and draw your own "practical" conclusions.

As for me, I'll be deeply enjoying the music.

rw

[shokhead]

I got to say after doing some reading that a power con might be helpful on a good mid-priced and up A/V system but there's some wacky stuff in this thread that i have never heard of. Millions of us have been wrong to have our amps and players in a rack together? Amps on floors. You know you can only hear so much and only not hear so much. I dont think that spending more on better cables and a power con and other little tricks that add up to more then you A/V stuff cost is a good deal. Seems like spending the money on better equipment in the first place is a better way to go. After market hype and equipment is HUGE in all markets. To much hype and not enough true results. Of course what do i know,i got cheap stuff.

[Bernd]

Hi Bernd

The blues gig was at a local pub they have them every week although I don't go every week but it is a jam session. some of the players come quite a distance it's a good night but could be a bit repetitive if you went too often.

If you are now happy with your system and can forget about it and use it for playing music, you have achieved your goal and thats great.

I'd like to have a look inside your Isotek Titan and Minisub sometime, as well as to really analyse one of those cables.

Like the sound of the shooting and the apres shooting tomorrow, I normally go to my boat at the weekend.

Perhaps one day we can swap a day shooting with you for a day fishing on my boat.

All the best and have a good one

Chas

Hi Chas,

Haven't been fishing for years. Used to really enjoy fly fishing. A swap sounds good. All booked up now until Christmas though.
It's dreadful weather at the moment, hopefully it will have moved by tomorrow.
Have a nice weekend

Bernd