Are records really better than CD's?

[StevenSurprenant]

I've had a Marantz 63SE CD Player amongst numerous other CD and DVD players, but nothing to write home about. I've had a CAL Audio Labs tube DAC and an Aragon DAC with HDCD, plus I've had a Genesis Digital Lens. I've also used a heavily modified Behringer digital crossover as a DAC and the latest addition was my Emotiva digital pre amp as a DAC. I should also mention that my Yamaha receiver also has a DAC which I've tried.

So you see, it's not like I didn't try.

I do have to say that the Oppo (digital out) going through the Emotiva was very clear.

I've owned B&W (lower model), Quad ESL's, and System Audio speakers, and others, not so nice. I've used Mark Levinson for power and tried several others, also owned other amps.

It's odd that I began with a decent pair of speakers and decent turntable going through a JVC receiver (back in the 70's), progressed through electrostatics and amps that weighed more than my girlfriend and now I'm back to a little amp that fits in my pocket and another decent turntable feeding home made speakers. Go figure?

I realize that it doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't make sense to me, but there it is. If it was a marginal change I would say so, but it's much more, even profound, if I'm allowed to say that.

I'm not saying that it's the best I've ever heard, that would be a lie, but for a system that cost me about $1,500 it's amazing. The speakers cost me about $1,000 in parts (including box and crossovers) and I got most of those parts for a big discount. Retail on the parts would have been about $2,000 (just the drivers) not counting the crossovers and material for the boxes. I didn't skimp of the crossover parts either, it's good stuff. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that my speakers are fairly decent. They are about 91db efficient so my little Trends amp drives them very well in the room they are in. By the way, the Trends amp reviewed very well. The only other thing in the signal path is the ART Phono Plus preamp which seems to be very transparent. I got lucky on this since I don't know one from another.

It's a simple system with a short signal path. I haven't messed with fancy speaker wire yet, but I am using a solid silver interconnect between the ART and the Trends.

Prior to this I was running the Oppo through the Emotiva to the Trends, so the system hasn't been radically altered. BTW, the analog out on my Oppo is poor quality, it needs to be connected digitally, and I agree with your assessment of it if you had used analog out.

Just a thought, but it always seemed to me that my DIY speakers were actually clearer sounding than my quads, but I thought my Quads had better tonal qualities for voices. Perhaps it's the equipment which was different for both systems.

Anyway, as it now stands (for me), vinyl rules, but when I get the time and drive I'm going to look into better digital systems.

I had another opportunity to play back another vinyl of which I have the CD and I still prefer the vinyl. I loved the music on both but the CD hurt my ears so much that I had to play it at a low volume. The record still has a certain amount of shrillness to it, but nowhere near what the CD has. Besides, I could hear a great deal more detail on the vinyl.

[frenchmon]

I've had a Marantz 63SE CD Player amongst numerous other CD and DVD players, but nothing to write home about. I've had a CAL Audio Labs tube DAC and an Aragon DAC with HDCD, plus I've had a Genesis Digital Lens. I've also used a heavily modified Behringer digital crossover as a DAC and the latest addition was my Emotiva digital pre amp as a DAC. I should also mention that my Yamaha receiver also has a DAC which I've tried.

So you see, it's not like I didn't try.

I do have to say that the Oppo (digital out) going through the Emotiva was very clear.

I've owned B&W (lower model), Quad ESL's, and System Audio speakers, and others, not so nice. I've used Mark Levinson for power and tried several others, also owned other amps.

It's odd that I began with a decent pair of speakers and decent turntable going through a JVC receiver (back in the 70's), progressed through electrostatics and amps that weighed more than my girlfriend and now I'm back to a little amp that fits in my pocket and another decent turntable feeding home made speakers. Go figure?

I realize that it doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't make sense to me, but there it is. If it was a marginal change I would say so, but it's much more, even profound, if I'm allowed to say that.

I'm not saying that it's the best I've ever heard, that would be a lie, but for a system that cost me about $1,500 it's amazing. The speakers cost me about $1,000 in parts (including box and crossovers) and I got most of those parts for a big discount. Retail on the parts would have been about $2,000 (just the drivers) not counting the crossovers and material for the boxes. I didn't skimp of the crossover parts either, it's good stuff. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that my speakers are fairly decent. They are about 91db efficient so my little Trends amp drives them very well in the room they are in. By the way, the Trends amp reviewed very well. The only other thing in the signal path is the ART Phono Plus preamp which seems to be very transparent. I got lucky on this since I don't know one from another.

It's a simple system with a short signal path. I haven't messed with fancy speaker wire yet, but I am using a solid silver interconnect between the ART and the Trends.

Prior to this I was running the Oppo through the Emotiva to the Trends, so the system hasn't been radically altered. BTW, the analog out on my Oppo is poor quality, it needs to be connected digitally, and I agree with your assessment of it if you had used analog out.

Just a thought, but it always seemed to me that my DIY speakers were actually clearer sounding than my quads, but I thought my Quads had better tonal qualities for voices. Perhaps it's the equipment which was different for both systems.

Anyway, as it now stands (for me), vinyl rules, but when I get the time and drive I'm going to look into better digital systems.

I had another opportunity to play back another vinyl of which I have the CD and I still prefer the vinyl. I loved the music on both but the CD hurt my ears so much that I had to play it at a low volume. The record still has a certain amount of shrillness to it, but nowhere near what the CD has. Besides, I could hear a great deal more detail on the vinyl.

I've got a CDP that retailed for $1500, and it has a huge and very nice external power supply.... Its not about being the most detailed...has no digital edge to music and limited and very low digital noise, has a slight warmer tubed like tone. Its really a muiscal player and its very good. And I have a $1300 TT with a $700 Cart. The digital while very, very good, the sound from the TT will best it in my opinion. The TT play back has to do with the way vinyl sounds. I like it more. Its smoother, flows better, drums, horns guitars etc all sound more natural, low level detail and clarity is better and the cohesiveness of the overall sound , depth, and staging is greater in my opinion. Also, I think I have a greater ear for the vinyl because I grew up with records and a record player due to my dad playing records all the time, so I had a very early exposure to vinyl play back while I was still in diapers. I abandoned vinyl at the advent of CD's. Sold all my albums and TT's and got a CDP and used it for years until about 3 years ago. I then rediscovered vinyl again after my wife gifted me a mmf-2.1 and after the needle hit the record for the first time again after about 20 years, I could immediately hear the difference in vinyl playback which was unlike CD playback. It was like I had found something I had lost years ago. I often wonder would I feel the same way about vinyl if I was born in the CD generation.

[StevenSurprenant]

The TT play back has to do with the way vinyl sounds. I like it more. Its smoother, flows better, drums, horns guitars etc all sound more natural, low level detail and clarity is better and the cohesiveness of the overall sound , depth, and staging is greater in my opinion......

after the needle hit the record for the first time again after about 20 years, I could immediately hear the difference in vinyl playback which was unlike CD playback. It was like I had found something I had lost years ago. I often wonder would I feel the same way about vinyl if I was born in the CD generation.

I agree with how vinyl sounds. The increase in low level detail that I'm hearing is amazing and really makes the instruments sound more real and depth and staging are as you said, better. It also sounds more dynamic. Someone here mentioned that already. Hands down, better all the way around. I realize that I sound overly zealous about this, but for the first time since the 70's, music is vibrant again.

I'm not saying that vinyl is perfect, but for me, with my digital equipment, digital sounds dull in comparison.

With the new cartridge, I hear even more detail than I remember from the past, so I'd say that my present analog system is better than what I had back in the day. The new cartridge is a little bright, but I understand that after about 50 hours it quiets down a little.

I think that I made all the wrong choices for my digital front end because I've heard digital sound very good too, but not at home. The best soundstaging and clarity I've heard was with digital, but that happened with only a few systems. However, there is one difference between the best I've heard and what my TT sounds like and that is vinyl sounds more vibrant with more micro details. Perhaps saying it sounds more natural is a good way of describing it.

I did try to convert the output of the TT into digital through a Behringer digital equalizer at 24/96, but it didn't sound very good .
No surprise there because many people have stated that analog input into that unit wasn't very good, and they were right.

To be fair, my excitement is in relation to my digital gear and not in comparison to the best digital I've heard, so what I say has to be taken with a grain of salt.

I've learned a lesson here because people support both sides of this discussion. While the improvements I've experienced is extreme, it might not have been so had I had a better digital front end, so I understand why some might think I've gone over the top with this.

As for the younger generation, I've heard some of them say that digital is far superior, but I question what they are comparing it to?

E-Stat mentioned that he questions my assessment and I fully understand. I love stats and I imagine that his system is to die for. I would be almost ashamed to let him listen to my system considering what he has.

The other thing is that I can only imagine that your analog is much better than mine as are many others, and that makes me want to get on the audio roller coaster again, but as for now, I'm enjoying my new found rediscovery.

Thanks for sharing your views with me.

BTW, you might want to try "Caverna Magica" on vinyl. It sounds very good.

[E-Stat]

I'm not saying that vinyl is perfect, but for me, with my digital equipment, digital sounds dull in comparison.

Call me an optimist, but I continue to point out that what you object to is merely an arbitrary application of digital - the lame Redbook standard. Better exists, but the music industry keeps us from enjoying it.

IE-Stat mentioned that he questions my assessment and I fully understand. I love stats and I imagine that his system is to die for. I would be almost ashamed to let him listen to my system considering what he has.

Don't get me wrong. I merely observe that the villain is not digital per se, but the specific application and even with Redbook recordings, there are players that to these ears come pretty darn close to the best analog. HP listens to his EMM players as much or more than the $150,000 Clearaudio Statement. At least when I visit. With no apologies.

IBTW, you might want to try "Caverna Magica" on vinyl. It sounds very good.

I will most certainly have to agree with you as that is one of my favorites. There is one thing, however, that one must do when listening to this music: turn out the lights!