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Thread: Are records really better than CD's?

  1. #101
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    So, in saying all of this, you are admitting that your digital playback gear is weaker than your vinyl playback gear, or your ears love the distortion of vinyl, and hate the lack thereof from digital. You are also dismissing Hi-rez because of your lack of experience and exposure to it. You cannot realize the advantage of digital without experience the best of it - so you perspective is pretty narrow in evaluating it even on a fundamental level.

    Those of us who have actively pursued Hi-Rez digital whether through downloads or disc know your comments are naive, narrow-minded, and very short of objective fact. I say you need to further explore and expose yourself to Hi-Rez before you make proclamations about any vinyl to digital comparison - subjective or not.

    As far as the mastering engineers I mention, the fact that you don't know them if very telling. Those guys represent the best of the best in terms of mastering for both digital(at all levels), and analog(most exclusively vinyl). They happen to be some of the best vinyl lathe cutting master makers in the business. All are Grammy award winners at that.
    I give up, you win (in your mind). I guess now I should inform the millions of people who migrated over to vinyl that they're wrong and should moth ball their systems because some guy on audioreview says so. Let's see how that goes...

    Since I've known you, you've bragged about your job and how you outperform all your peers, about what you own, and about who you know. All of this means nothing and the fact that you have to brag to people that you have done these things and know these people indicates that something is lacking in your life. When these people start mentioning that they know you then perhaps I'll be a little impressed. My experience with braggarts is that they are under achievers who think more of themselves than others think of them. Well that's what I think you are about and I'm not being mean. It's an honest evaluation.

    You keep implying that digital is always better than analog and you know that isn't true. As for Hi-rez, when it hits the mainstream with music I enjoy, I'll jump on the bandwagon, but till then, there's a lot more vinyl in my future.

    While I'm being honest and open, I'll tell you one more thing. Most of the CD's that I own are crap, in terms of sound quality, and many of the older records I have procured too. Movies have the background effects turned up so loud that you can't understand the dialog half the time. I couldn't count the number of people who have said the same thing. I've mentioned this to you before and your reply was that you know what you're doing and that I should be happy with what I get. Bull hockey!

    If this is the best the industry has to offer than perhaps it's time to rethink this whole thing and maybe even get rid of some of the shakers and movers in the industry.

    You've called my comments naive and narrow minded, but have you ever listened to yourself. You make a blanket statement that all vinyl systems have bloated bass and are distorted. How can you say that? Have you listened to all turntables? I have refrained for the sake of preventing arguments from commenting every time you screw up. I know that you're somewhat of a Prima Donna and can't stand people who disagree with you.

    We've tried to converse before and it always ends up this way, so what's the point?.

  2. #102
    RGA
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    I don't think you've read SirT the right way. Engineers, no offense, tend to discuss things in technical terms as either black and white. Sir T is correct that as a technology Hi resolution digital is superior to both Vinyl and CD in terms of recordings. The source disc/download is superior - period.

    The CD is arguably superior to vinyl as well as he notes the CD is closer to the master tape than the same recording on vinyl. CD was and is a technically superior format. CD failed with audiophiles out of the gate due to lousy machines and lousy recordings and early reports complained of horribly bright and just plain crappy sounding treble. Many of those early players were if I remember right 14 bit units.

    Vinyl was generally quite superior in the treble. And let's face it - if something sounds a bit bright - no matter what else it may do - blacker blacks, lower noise, less distortion, better bass more dynamics whatever - if the treble is at all "off" then it becomes fatiguing dredge even if in EVERY other aspect of sound CD is better - treble is THE most important thing to be able to listen for long periods - if it is slightly off or bright then many audiophiles will turn it off. CD was not great in the treble. I am 38 and I still hear to 17khz.

    Hi Resolution fixes what ailed the CD. Indeed very good CD players from Audio Note ails a lot of what ailed CD which is why they're so popular with vinyl philes - And having Guy Adams(Voyd References fame - now heads HP computer industrial design - so he knows math and computers) help design the CD players is perhaps why they sound better than every other CD player I've tried.

    I think the thing most audiophiles with large music collections are guilty of is wanting to hold onto what we have. Nothing wrong with this of course. If you have 20,000 records you are going to invest in playing them back the best you possibly can. And you WILL get amazing sound quality out of them.

    Hi Res is simply better technology and can result in better sound. As is the case when engineers record to DSD or CD and then to vinyl. This proves the technology.

    Unfortunately when the engineer hat comes off and you leave the laboratory then one must enter the real world of practical results. And that world is that very often Album ABC sounds better on vinyl than CD and is not recorded and/or available on DSD. Yes album XYZ was recorded on DSD/SACD, CD, and vinyl and the DSD is deemed better. Now list all the albums available where this has been done. How long is the list? Did we get past one hand or two? Theory versus practical real world availability.

    I take my albums I have at home and I say okay I have Madonna Immaculate collection on Vinyl, CD, and a few 45 singles from said album. The 45's trounce the other two, then LP then CD. I go through much of my collection where I have the CD and vinyl versions. And it's something like 95% in favour of LP and the 5% is made up of used vinyl albums that are problem discs (warped or someone ran a bad needle on it or they're newer digital made LPs where the CD is no worse sounding and therefore I give it a win because the CD is cheaper than the vinyl.

    CD is technically superior but the results are simply difficult to ignore. Where CD seems to win is newer albums which can sound outstanding.

    Hi Res is a different thing. I was less impressed with SACD because again CD played on Audio Note's CD players of the same album sounded considerably better - more dynamics more body more sound than the same albums on SACD - I tried about 7 albums from rock to jazz to classical. 5 channel Hotel California was frankly awful. However, this is playback not technology of the disc - the disc is substantially better - the playback of those early machines like early CD may have just sucked. I mainly used the Sony ES something or other which was about $5000 when it came out. It's CD player section was atrocious so perhaps it just wasn't very good.

    Fast forward to today and the conversation over SACD is largely moot since Sony is rumbling to cease production of transports and recordings it means the death of SACD. The future is DSD downloaded music. Even if SACD survives I am in the camp of the download.

    You buy a few 1tb hard drives (I have two) and you load them up with music. You run a laptop to your big screen TV - already do this to watch videos.

    Get yourself some sort of 24/96 or 24/192 or 32/384 DAC and you have hi res music.

    And here's the nifty thing - unlike most audiophile equipment Hi Res is "good" at low cost. You can spend $10,000 on a DCS debussy or $2,500 for an Ayre QB9 but you can also spend $500 on a Halide or less for an Arcam Rdac or even just $169 for an Audio Engine Audioengine D1 - Audioengineusa.com

    To me $169 is a pretty decent gamble - people spend more on tendercups to lift CD players off the shelf than this device which, while likely not the best showing of the technology, can likely show enough to let you know what DSD is capable of. And hey it's a headphone amp to boot.

    I am looking into these DACs myself but I am behind the curve and I suspect turntable audiophiles are somewhat afraid/leery of getting computers into the mix.

    Plus computers tend to be out of date the moment you buy them so there is a fear that whatever you buy will be a P.O.S. in 3 months. Then what do you actually "need?" A server or a DAC.

    What about the bits - 24/96 or 24/192 as minimum. Then there are some selling chips that are 32/384 which has no to very few actual music you can play and the machines that have the chip that can do it don't have connections that can send information to that level (as my limited understanding of my reading of one review indicates.)

    Then some units are 24/192 via S/PDIF but only 24/96 via the USB. It's been advised on several sites that you should always use the S/PDIF input on the DAC which means you need a USB to S/PDIF connector.

    Frankly for many people this becomes white noise of gobbldygook and I just want to stick the CD in the drawer and push play - simple.

    Nevertheless - I am looking into them and I am not in the DCS Debussey price range - I want to start with something fairly inexpensive from a company that has a track record.

    So I am currently looking at the Benchmark DAC1 HDR DAC1 HDR | Benchmark Media and Wyred4Sound W4S DAC-2 (DAC2) - DACs - DAC 2, ESS Sabre DAC, High Definition Amplifiers, Asynchronous, Sonos modificaitons, Stereo Pre Amp

  3. #103
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    RGA, Nicely put! Thanks.

    I am not arguing whether Hi-Res is superior to vinyl. That has never been my contention. It's always been about redbook CD on average CD players versus vinyl. If I were to put this in a Venn diagram that would exclude Hi-Rez and higher end CD players.

    The reason this argument goes awry is that we're not comparing apples to apples and it's impossible to keep him focused.

    The "Starry Night" album by Julio Iglesias that I mentioned sounds tonally identical on CD and vinyl. Even the soundstage is the same, but the difference is the amount of micro detail and harmonics which goes a long way in making the music more vibrant and creates a secondary effect of separating things in the soundstage. BTW, this album and others where I have both the CD and the vinyl is one of the reasons I think Sir T is wrong about bloated Mid bass and distortion. Besides, I don't think that all phono cartridges sound the same or that they all have bloated mid bass. I would then assume that the record was recorded that way, in which case, it's the engineers fault and not the playback equipment. His comments on this show a strong bias against all vinyl which doesn't support his position.

    I reserve the right to criticize bluebook CD's from the stand point of what I hear on average CD players. If he bought a CD player under, let's say under $200, I don't think Sir T could truthfully say that it sounds better than vinyl on a good system.

    At some point in the future when Hi-Rez digital becomes the standard and average playback systems are very good, then I won't have a leg to stand on, in which case I will wholeheartedly support his position, but for now, that's exceeding the breadth of the argument.

    With that said...

    I already have a DAC and player that supports 24/192 (but not FLAC files), but no software. I've looked at what's available in Hi-Rez, but nothing has caught my interest. I figure that if I keep looking that someday I will find something I like.

    One of the problems I have is that I don't want to use a computer to play back these files. I guess that I'm old school and want to hold the vinyl or disk in my hand. Besides, knowing computers like I do, you could loose your entire collection in a heartbeat due to disk failure. Considering the cost of some of these Hi-Rez files, I wouldn't go this route unless I were to invest in a substantial backup system which adds to the cost of going Hi-Rez. That's just me...

    With that said...

    I have no doubt that Hi-Rez digital is the best format available and when the day comes that it is readily available with music I enjoy, I'll pack away my vinyl and take Sir T out for a beer.

    I had the same argument with my photography teacher who insisted that digital would never replace film. I was on the side of digital, but he was correct from the viewpoint of using large film formats, such as 4X5, and scalability. Digital hasn't stood still and resolution keeps climbing. At some point, film will be nothing more than footnote. The same applies to vinyl. In either case, it's just not going to happen today.

  4. #104
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    The reason this argument goes awry is that we're not comparing apples to apples and it's impossible to keep him focused.
    If you are going to compare apples with apples, then your comparison of vinyl versus CD would be impossible.Both formats are mastered differently, both operate differently, and both have format based routines that if not implemented properly will result if poor performance. Apples to apples comparison would be two different carts on the same tonearm. Apples to apples would be the comparison between the same recording on CD and SACD, or DVD-A and CD.

    This tells me you don't know exactly what the focus is.



    The "Starry Night" album by Julio Iglesias that I mentioned sounds tonally identical on CD and vinyl. Even the soundstage is the same, but the difference is the amount of micro detail and harmonics which goes a long way in making the music more vibrant and creates a secondary effect of separating things in the soundstage.
    All this tells me is that your vinyl setup has more resolution than your digital gear. Secondly you don't know if identical masters were used for both, so you comparison is fraught with problems, which profoundly biases your opinion.



    BTW, this album and others where I have both the CD and the vinyl is one of the reasons I think Sir T is wrong about bloated Mid bass and distortion. Besides, I don't think that all phono cartridges sound the same or that they all have bloated mid bass. I would then assume that the record was recorded that way, in which case, it's the engineers fault and not the playback equipment. His comments on this show a strong bias against all vinyl which doesn't support his position.
    Steve, without a direct comparison(the original master) how do you know which format is presenting exactly what the engineer wanted you to hear? You don't, you are using your subjective opinion.

    I want to put this another way. Have you ever compared a 35mm master tape with a QC CD master, and a master pressing of vinyl all at once? I have in Doug Sax's studio with his custom made turntable and one of the most neutral sounding carts I have ever heard. As good as the vinyl sounded, it did not sound like my my 35mm master. The CD was a lot closer to what I heard from my master. Unlike you, I happen to have very high quality digital gear(my pre-amp in my signature processor everything at 48/354.2 or 384khz sample rate) so my perspective on digital is not gimped or based on midfi digital gear.

    I would like to point out to you some excerpts from this great NPR discussion I was pointed to on another website.

    DANKOSKY: So, first of all, I'll ask you, Scott: vinyl or CD?

    (SOUNDBITE OF LAUGHTER)

    METCALFE: I enjoy both formats, but my preference is definitely CD.

    DANKOSKY: Now, why CD?

    METCALFE: Well, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that I'm primarily a recording engineer, as far as working with music. And it's - the closer thing to what I'm sending into the recorder is very much what I'm getting back out. With analog formats, although the sound can be very pleasing in certain styles, it's definitely imparting its own sound on it. And I think, to an extent, it's that sound that some people are really drawn to. But it's nice as an engineer to have the confidence of knowing that what I'm putting into - in most cases these days, the computer - is pretty close to what I'm going to get out.

    DANKOSKY: Sean Olive, I have to ask you. I think I know your answer, but vinyl or CD?

    OLIVE: Definitely CD.

    DANKOSKY: Yeah? So tell me why.

    OLIVE: Well, I mean, I grew up listening to records up until about '85, when the CD was already out. And I was involved in testing loudspeakers up at the National Research Council in Canada. And we were testing cartridges at that time, and it was quite apparent that the amount of distortion coming out of these devices was very high compared to CD. So what we found was that vinyl was a limiting factor in our ability to do accurate and reliable listening tests on loudspeakers, and we had to find a more reliable and more accurate medium.


    Why Vinyl Sounds Better Than CD, Or Not : NPR

    So reason why I made my statement about vinyl is based on my experience comparing the master to the CD or vinyl. It is the sound characteristic of the format that is so appealing to audiophiles. Audiophiles do not like neutrality or accuracy, or they would not have a preference towards vinyl OR tube amplifiers and preamplifiers(or at least quite a few of them). The very things that vinyl lovers like about vinyl, they dislike about CD. CD do not have a sound 'characteristic", what you record is what you get. CD does not enhance or highlight anything unless that is the intentions of the engineer. That is not the case with vinyl.

    So, if you like salt and pepper on your audio, then by all means listen to vinyl through tube based equipment. If you want accuracy and neutrality, then the CD is your bag. I have seven grammy award winning mastering engineers that support this.

    When you get a chance to listen to a master tape, and the formats the music was released on, come back and talk to me. We can then discuss this BS about keeping focus.
    Sir Terrence

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  5. #105
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenSurprenant View Post
    I give up, you win (in your mind). I guess now I should inform the millions of people who migrated over to vinyl that they're wrong and should moth ball their systems because some guy on audioreview says so. Let's see how that goes...
    Oh cut the bull$hit drama! There is no indication whatsoever that millions have migrated over to vinyl. Turntable sales do not support that notion PERIOD.

    Since I've known you, you've bragged about your job and how you outperform all your peers, about what you own, and about who you know. All of this means nothing and the fact that you have to brag to people that you have done these things and know these people indicates that something is lacking in your life. When these people start mentioning that they know you then perhaps I'll be a little impressed. My experience with braggarts is that they are under achievers who think more of themselves than others think of them. Well that's what I think you are about and I'm not being mean. It's an honest evaluation.
    And here is my assessment of you as well. When you fall down on a technical basis, you start immediately attacking the person personally - even when you don't know jack $hit about them. Deflection is a weakness that people with weak minds often fall back on. I don't brag about anything, I share my experience - much like you try to do. There is nothing lacking in my life(see the deflection) but there is something definitely lacking in your technical education on things audio.

    You keep implying that digital is always better than analog and you know that isn't true. As for Hi-rez, when it hits the mainstream with music I enjoy, I'll jump on the bandwagon, but till then, there's a lot more vinyl in my future.
    I said nothing about digital always being better than analog, I said digital is better than vinyl. I love the sound of a recording made on 35mm magnetic tape, and have a few of them transferred to high resolution digital in my collection.

    While I'm being honest and open, I'll tell you one more thing. Most of the CD's that I own are crap, in terms of sound quality, and many of the older records I have procured too. Movies have the background effects turned up so loud that you can't understand the dialog half the time. I couldn't count the number of people who have said the same thing. I've mentioned this to you before and your reply was that you know what you're doing and that I should be happy with what I get. Bull hockey!
    Obviously if there was a balance problem between the dialog and the effects, we would have notice this not only on the dubbing stage, and for Disney, the smaller mixing studio that we create our special made for hometheater mixes. As I have explained to you before, none of my system have this issue or ever have. So if you are having this trouble(and all those who agree with you) room resonances, improper alignment and calibration, or the use of non traditional speakers are probably the problem, not the software.

    If this is the best the industry has to offer than perhaps it's time to rethink this whole thing and maybe even get rid of some of the shakers and movers in the industry.
    Or maybe your ears and sound system. It is a weakness to always blame something else other than your equipment, room, or your ears. You have probably never really heard how good movie soundtracks can sound if there is a weakness in any or all of these areas.

    You've called my comments naive and narrow minded, but have you ever listened to yourself. You make a blanket statement that all vinyl systems have bloated bass and are distorted. How can you say that? Have you listened to all turntables? I have refrained for the sake of preventing arguments from commenting every time you screw up. I know that you're somewhat of a Prima Donna and can't stand people who disagree with you.
    Reading comprehension apparently is not your strong suit. I made no mention of vinyl systems because there is no such thing. I never made any mention to anyone specific system. It is a known fact that vinyl has built in distortions, and when you compared it to the master tape(something you have not done) these distortions are very audible. Read Scott's comments above. The vinyl record does not have the accuracy or transparency of the original master tape PERIOD.

    We've tried to converse before and it always ends up this way, so what's the point?.
    Steve, it ends up this way because you are technically challenged which makes you default to your subjective personal opinion - which is not fact. You blame the software for issues when the problem really lies in your system, your room acoustics, or your ears. 5 grammy award winning mastering engineers say vinyl is not accurate, and Steve dismisses this without any engineering(let alone mastering engineering) experience. You have never compared a master tape to any reproduction format, and yet you think you have enough information to make a comparison that folks here should pay attention to. By now you should know that I am not going to let misinformation, or a shorted sighted uneducated statement or opinion pass.

    My strong and profound suggestion to you is to better educate yourself techically before you post This way you don't have to get your panties in a knot when somebody swats your words down like fly's.

    In the future, let's leave the personal comments of one character to those who actually know the person. They don't belong in a audio discussion.
    Sir Terrence

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  6. #106
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    Apples to apples are the 2 formats available to the average consumer within a respectable price range, so apples to apples applies.

    I would like to add one more thing and then I'll let it drop. I never understood war and could never figure how the leaders of this planet who were intelligent people could ever allow it to happen. Nothing they ever fought about was worth the death of their own people and the people of other nations. After meeting Sir T, I now understand the mentality that can drive otherwise peaceful people into barbarism. It's really sad that is part of human nature. I never understood this about humanity...until now, so in that sense, I guess that I was naive. I don't expect you to have an inkling of what I speaking about.

    FYI, I blocked all posts from you since our posts are unproductive and blemishes a decent audio site. I just thought you might want to know this. I get tired of your B.S. and your crying if you don't get your way. Also, I only looked at the first sentence of your last two posts and saw where this was going. There was no point to read any further.

    When I look back at all the other people and their posts, I see a community of like minded people discussing their common interest in the best of spirits. Sometimes they clash, but never with malice. They support each other and help when they can. I've been the recipient of that help from time to time and it was greatly appreciated. You, on the other hand, are fine unless people disagree with you in which case you become psychotic.

    Most of the time we have to listen to you rant about how great you are, how hard you work, how your peers are incompetent compared to yourself, how your equipment is the best that money can buy, and about all these people that you know. My guess is that if we asked your peers, they would tell a different story. If we asked these people you keep name dropping, they would probably not know who you are.

    Let me tell you something about human nature and that is we all think we work hard, do a good job and many times a better job then our peers. The choices that we all make in life makes sense to ourselves even in the face of conflicting opinions. However, what most people don't do is degrade others to to benefit themselves, as you do. I don't think you have any idea what I'm speaking of, do you?

    We've gone back and forth on this issue about vinyl and yet you have never heard my system. So when you finally decided that I was right (with my system), you called my digital equipment crap.
    That's fine, I can't argue that point, but a decent person would have said that I wasn't getting everything that digital had to offer and a better player would even the score between vinyl. Do you see what I'm implying about your personality?

    Indirectly you have also besmirched the names of all the manufacturers of all the gear I have owned, such as, Marantz, Genesis, California Audio Labs, Aragon, Emotiva, and a plethora of other players in the game. I wonder how they would feel about you saying that their gear is crap?

    So, if it makes you feel better about yourself to besmirch me, please feel free to do so at my expense, it's expected from you. I won't be reading it.
    Last edited by StevenSurprenant; 10-02-2012 at 04:40 AM.

  7. #107
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    RGA, I did download some Hi-Rez from 2L. They do sound clear and they were free. Interesting...

    Most of the ones I downloaded were FLAC 24/192. I also downloaded one file that was WAV 24/352.

    Thanks again for your input. I'm going to try and find some Hi-Rez files that I enjoy.
    Last edited by StevenSurprenant; 10-02-2012 at 02:56 AM.

  8. #108
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    I am looking into these DACs myself but I am behind the curve and I suspect turntable audiophiles are somewhat afraid/leery of getting computers into the mix.

    Plus computers tend to be out of date the moment you buy them so there is a fear that whatever you buy will be a P.O.S. in 3 months. Then what do you actually "need?" A server or a DAC.
    Having recently switched my digital playback over completely to a server based solution, I shared your confusion over the myriad of tweaks required for dedicated computer music operation. I'd rather not have to hollow out the OS kernel and worry about arcane things like ASIO, DRC and Wasapi.

    Which is why I like the Squeezebox Touch server concept. There is no need for a dedicated stripped down computer. I use a two year old Dell desktop that is my daily work computer. My FLAC library is located there along with the Squeezebox server software. Even when both Touches are running independent streams, Resource Monitor reports that the sum of all SB related processes consumes about 0.4% of CPU power.

    Connecting the Touch players is quite simple. I run one via CAT6 cabling to the router and the other, via the wi-fi network. While the players offer full UI capability, I usually use a separate app that runs on my iPhone that can control either - or link the two players together with the same stream.

    Easy and convenient. I do recommend buying a linear supply for the Touch units though. They really do improve resolution and reduce noise. The internal DAC is pretty decent and that's what I use in the vintage garage system driving the Acoustats. Upstairs the player drives an Audio Research DAC7.

    Oh, and each system still has a pretty nice turntable to play the rest of my library.

  9. #109
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenSurprenant View Post
    Apples to apples are the 2 formats available to the average consumer within a respectable price range, so apples to apples applies.
    Well so is High Rez, so why not throw that in there as well.

    I would like to add one more thing and then I'll let it drop. I never understood war and could never figure how the leaders of this planet who were intelligent people could ever allow it to happen. Nothing they ever fought about was worth the death of their own people and the people of other nations. After meeting Sir T, I now understand the mentality that can drive otherwise peaceful people into barbarism. It's really sad that is part of human nature. I never understood this about humanity...until now, so in that sense, I guess that I was naive. I don't expect you to have an inkling of what I speaking about.
    Thanks for making my point about you Steven . Whenever you fall short technically, you resort to disparaging a person character - something you don't know jack$hit about.

    By the way idiot, you have never met me.

    FYI, I blocked all posts from you since our posts are unproductive and blemishes a decent audio site. I just thought you might want to know this. I get tired of your B.S. and your crying if you don't get your way. Also, I only looked at the first sentence of your last two posts and saw where this was going. There was no point to read any further.
    Good, block them all. Stay as ignorant as hell as you always have been. Nothing lost, and certainly nothing gained - you are still as stupid as the first post I read of yours.

    When I look back at all the other people and their posts, I see a community of like minded people discussing their common interest in the best of spirits. Sometimes they clash, but never with malice. They support each other and help when they can. I've been the recipient of that help from time to time and it was greatly appreciated. You, on the other hand, are fine unless people disagree with you in which case you become psychotic.
    Well, you should have said that you wanted a sheeple country club when you got here, and then I would have steered you elsewhere.

    Most of the time we have to listen to you rant about how great you are, how hard you work, how your peers are incompetent compared to yourself, how your equipment is the best that money can buy, and about all these people that you know. My guess is that if we asked your peers, they would tell a different story. If we asked these people you keep name dropping, they would probably not know who you are.
    You keep solidifying my point about you. When you get to the end of your knowledge(which does not take very long) you start personal attacks. Next you will spit blood, your head will turn 360 degrees, and that little pea brain of your will spill out of your nose.

    Let me tell you something about human nature and that is we all think we work hard, do a good job and many times a better job then our peers. The choices that we all make in life makes sense to ourselves even in the face of conflicting opinions. However, what most people don't do is degrade others to to benefit themselves, as you do. I don't think you have any idea what I'm speaking of, do you?
    I don't think you know what you are talking about, which would be par for the course for you.

    We've gone back and forth on this issue about vinyl and yet you have never heard my system. So when you finally decided that I was right (with my system), you called my digital equipment crap.
    That's fine, I can't argue that point, but a decent person would have said that I wasn't getting everything that digital had to offer and a better player would even the score between vinyl. Do you see what I'm implying about your personality?
    Who cares what you think about my personality. You are just another stupid guy on audioreview who does not like his"long years of listening experience(which does not mean a lot)" challenged. I have been here since 1995. How many of your kind have I experience since then. Too many to count.

    Indirectly you have also besmirched the names of all the manufacturers of all the gear I have owned, such as, Marantz, Genesis, California Audio Labs, Aragon, Emotiva, and a plethora of other players in the game. I wonder how they would feel about you saying that their gear is crap?

    So, if it makes you feel better about yourself to besmirch me, please feel free to do so at my expense, it's expected from you. I won't be reading it.
    Good, go back to sticking your head up your own bum - it is the only thing you have been really good at on these boards.
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  10. #110
    Audio casualty StevenSurprenant's Avatar
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    I know this thread has been going for a while and for some it has exceeded the point of being interesting, but I think it's too soon to close the book on this.

    I think the strongest argument is that vinyl and digital is sometimes mastered differently so one version might be preferable over another. The other argument is that vinyl has a bloated mid bass and perhaps even distortion that some people prefer. This is not what I hear. Tonally, they sound the same, there seems to be no emphasis at any frequency. Of course, records can sound different on different turntables. The difference I hear is the amount of micro detail is greater on vinyl, hence bringing the sound closer to live. This difference is not subtle. The best way to describe the difference is to ring a bell and then ring it again with your finger touching it.

    Considering that myself and an ever increasing number of people are switching back to vinyl, the most important question is what are we hearing that we don't hear from digital, of perhaps it's what we hear on digital that is sending us back to analog. I don't support the idea that vinyl sounds warmer, otherwise all we would have to do is turn up the bass a little. Some people claim that they like vinyl because it lacks the digital harshness of CD's. I can agree with this too.

    The other argument is that our digital playback equipment is subpar. Considering that some really good CD players sound much better than what many of us own, there is probably some truth to this.

    Another thing that is very important which seems to be glossed over is that our own audio systems have varying degrees of resolution, which can account for how much change we hear from different sources. I would think that the difference between vinyl and analog would be less on a lower resolution system, assuming that the quality of the analog and digital front ends were the same.

    At this point I would like to interject an observation which I have noticed. When I cut a CD to my hard drive on my computer, it sounds much better through headphones than it does from a stand alone CD player going to headphones. In fact, I might go so far as to say that it may sound better (or the same) than vinyl. BTW, I use Grado headphones.

    The only thing to do at this point is to pursue this computer aspect.

    Note: If running music from the computer makes all the difference than my displeasure with digital has always been the the myriad of digital equipment I've owned and heard.

    I'll update my results for those interested...

    Thanks again for all those who attributed to this thread.

  11. #111
    music whore Happy Camper's Avatar
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    I suspect the quality of the DAC output design has a lot to do with digital sound. The better the output implementation, the more fine resolution is exposed. I'm also noticing amps have some bearing on the fullness of sound and directional ques. I have also experienced the ripped CD sounding better than the same CD played on the same computer's spinner.

    I do think there is a bias on both sides and those bias are what keeps the war alive. I've heard vinyl rips and I do believe they are mid bass flush compared to the same CD. As to the accuracy between the two, technology says digital is the more proficient When CDs first hit the market, I was smiling with all the perceived detail. After living with it a bit, I became sensitive to the harshness of the format. So I bought an outboard DAC with a tube output which much improved to my tastes. The years have improved DAC's output circuitry and minimal filtering have put digital sound closer to real. IMO

    I've also noticed headphones are a sonic microscope that's getting better. Synergy is important when trying to set up a balanced system. I've seen people put a K701 on a SS amp with a digital source. Talk about some serious solid state sound. Throw a tube in the mix and things start to sound more vinyl. So is vinyl or digital colored? Does digital brittleness come from the format or DAC quality? Synergy means mixing component strengths/weaknesses to minimize combined influences to the listener's satisfaction. The digital generation has no experience with vinyl or tubes and it intimidates them. Also, they have been taught that digital is a much superior technology. The syrupy vinyl sound has a place in attenuating the harsher solid state sound or solid state micro details improve the tube dullness. Either way, it's matching the strengths/weaknesses to meet the listener's pleasure.

    The thing I suspect has some influence is what gear was used when recording and mixing the material. The pre-70s was mostly tube gear. Transistors became the industry practice well into the 90s and today it's mostly chip. Finding the best combination of components to let each era sound good is a daunting task. Unfortunately, we don't have access to all these toys to formulate a strength/weakness chart. We have to trust the professional gearslinger to do our job and put together some systems that present as much information as possible. The less experienced doesn't understand why a sound can be different with just one link change. Theoretically, they should all sound the same.
    d HC b

  12. #112
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    I think the strongest argument is that vinyl and digital is sometimes mastered differently so one version might be preferable over another. The other argument is that vinyl has a bloated mid bass and perhaps even distortion that some people prefer. This is not what I hear. Tonally, they sound the same, there seems to be no emphasis at any frequency. Of course, records can sound different on different turntables. The difference I hear is the amount of micro detail is greater on vinyl, hence bringing the sound closer to live.
    So my question here is what is the reference one uses to define which has more detail, or which is highlighting detail in a different way(i.e just a different presentation of the same thing)? In any listening test there has to be a reference standard that the others have to be compared to. Without that reference, the listening test become nothing more than a equipment review, as the software becomes second hat to the hardware. When I read that vinyl sounds tonally identical to a CD, or somebody states they sound the same, it is readily apparent based on my experience the master was optimized for the vinyl, not the CD. When there is a master optimized for each format, they will not sound identical because the sonic characteristic of each format is quite different.



    This difference is not subtle. The best way to describe the difference is to ring a bell and then ring it again with your finger touching it. I think the strongest argument is that vinyl and digital is sometimes mastered differently so one version might be preferable over another.[/quote]

    This comment is another indication that the master was created for vinyl, and transferred to CD as an afterthought. If the masters was optimized for both formats, differences in clarity would not exist even in the face of tonal differences based on the sonic characteristics(or lack of) of each format.


    The other argument is that vinyl has a bloated mid bass and perhaps even distortion that some people prefer. This is not what I hear.
    How does this listener know what kinds of distortions to listen for without a reference to a master. You have to have a master transparent and neutral source that comparisons can be made from to legitimize any listening test. Another question would be does the listener actually know what sonic distortion is, whether it is pleasing or not? The next observation is that the listeners comprehension skills are lacking here. It was my observation based on several comparisons of my own material that the first vinyl pressing when compared to the master tape had bloated or overly ripe bass. This was based on a master that was optimized specifically for vinyl. That observation would not cover any vinyl that I have heard without a reference comparison, that would be illogical - and the very thing I criticize this listener about. My observations where very specific, but just happens to line up with a long line of mastering engineers who are experts at cutting vinyl discs, and mastering CD's for replication.


    Tonally, they sound the same, there seems to be no emphasis at any frequency. Of course, records can sound different on different turntables. The difference I hear is the amount of micro detail is greater on vinyl, hence bringing the sound closer to live. This difference is not subtle. The best way to describe the difference is to ring a bell and then ring it again with your finger touching it.
    This observation points to two things. Either the digital playback side has insufficient resolution, or the master for the CD was really optimized for the vinyl format.

    How does one ascertain frequency differences without looking at each waveform. Our ears certainly are not very accurate in the frequency domain, that is for sure. If they were, everyone would have perfect pitch. Also how can both formats be tonally and frequency wise alike, and yet one delivers more detail than the other? Something is amiss here.

    The problem that I have with these homegrown listening test that have absolutely no protocols aside from cueing a disc, or putting a needle on a disc. Was each source volume matched within .5db? No mention of that which means it was not done. The source that is played back the loudest will have the most perceived detail, and that is a fact. The listening test were sighted, which automatically introduces biases that a double blind test would not.

    It is one thing to use a listening test to convince oneself. It is another to come to a public forum and try and convince people that their listening test confirm that one is better than the other.

    And by the way, vinyl is an analog format, so they cannot be listed separately.
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 10-05-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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  13. #113
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    A little read for the listening expert who posted this
    A *little* read indeed.

    "There is currently no text in this page"

  14. #114
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    A *little* read indeed.

    "There is currently no text in this page"
    I found it again, but it won't allow me to link to it. Google Myths vinyl, and the link pops up.

    Thanks for pointing that out. It wasn't a little read, it was no read. LOLOLOL
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  15. #115
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    I found it again, but it won't allow me to link to it. Google Myths vinyl, and the link pops up.
    Sorry, but most all those explanations are sophomoric at best and many are simply incorrect. Which doesn't affect my perspective regarding the mixed bag of virtues when one compares CD vs. vinyl.

    They would argue that you are simply imagining things when you conclude that you can hear the difference between Redbook and DXD.

  16. #116
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    StevenSurprenant..

    Here is an interesting little rant...and in the comments section MICHAEL FREMER even chimes in on the guy....



    Why vinyl and cassettes should stay dead and hipster analog revivalism should join them | Digital Trends
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  17. #117
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon View Post
    Here is an interesting little rant...and in the comments section MICHAEL FREMER even chimes in on the guy....



    Why vinyl and cassettes should stay dead and hipster analog revivalism should join them | Digital Trends
    Did you notice this comment from a mastering engineer?

    I'm a mastering engineer, so I likely have a bit more experience that most posters here. I just finished the masters for Cashing in on Christmas volume IV on Black Hole Records, which comes as a package on vinyl and CD. Because of the limitations of vinyl, two completely different masters are made. The CD is actually much closer to the files the bands send.

    The underlined has been my experience, and the experience of many mastering engineers as well.
    Sir Terrence

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  18. #118
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    But is it more musical? and to my ears, records just sound more natural.
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  19. #119
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    The CD is actually much closer to the files the bands send
    The files? Clearly, that was not an analog recording.

  20. #120
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    The files? Clearly, that was not an analog recording.
    When you have specifically tweaked masters for each format, then the source is irrelevant.
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  21. #121
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon View Post
    But is it more musical? and to my ears, records just sound more natural.
    More musical is strictly a subjective determination, as is what is considered natural.
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  22. #122
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Sorry, but most all those explanations are sophomoric at best and many are simply incorrect. Which doesn't affect my perspective regarding the mixed bag of virtues when one compares CD vs. vinyl.
    This is a pretty generalized statement. Can you identify what is incorrect. I know the entire fact sheet cannot be dismissed.

    They would argue that you are simply imagining things when you conclude that you can hear the difference between Redbook and DXD.
    Your projecting here.
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  23. #123
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    When you have specifically tweaked masters for each format, then the source is irrelevant.
    Unless of course you've already lost resolution that cannot be recovered after the fact.

  24. #124
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat View Post
    Unless of course you've already lost resolution that cannot be recovered after the fact.
    The mastering process does not cause a loss in resolution. It may change what is there, but there is nothing in the process if done well that results in a loss of resolution.
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  25. #125
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    The mastering process does not cause a loss in resolution. It may change what is there, but there is nothing in the process if done well that results in a loss of resolution.
    So tell us details of the resolution of the recording made by that no name label. And cite where you discovered that information.

    Best of luck to you.

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