May be a table finally.

[poppachubby]

O by the way...that girl emailed me and asked if I would pay $175 after she listed it at $125.....I cant do business with a person like that.

frenchmon
.

Monkey business indeed. I don't care for that either. Like I said, plenty of comparable TT's out there.

I think everyone is waiting for your magical budget number, then it's off to the races. Again, the cart is covered so we can focus solely on the table. Sometimes you get lucky and it may have a decent, trustworthy cart installed.

I'm excited for you and can't wait to be a part of the process.

[Mr Peabody]

I had an old Pioneer PL-51 for years. It quit spinning one day so I bought a flashy new Technics Quartz Locked direct drive table. I transfered the cartridge from the Pioneer to the Technics. The Technics sound was so inferior to the Pioneer I took the Technics back and had the PL-51 repaired. It gave good service for several years. I eventually sold it and as far as I know still is going. I've always been skeptical of Technics being on par with other good tables because I haven't heard anything since my experience to change my mind. I always wanted to compare a 1200 but I really suspect it's fame is from the DJ side of things and not sound quality. In fact, it's model being used in an episode of Everyone Hate's Chris as a DJ table further instills my theory. When I worked in sales we sold some DJ tables and they sometimes cost more than the hi fi brands we had but the price wasn't based on sound it was mostly features and durability.

If I were to take a chance on a vintage table I wouldn't hesitate to try another Pioneer or my preference would be Dual.

With that being said my Rega is on an entirely higher level than my old Pioneer was. My P3 is totally stock. They don't "wow" with their looks but they do sound good. When I still had my PL-51 I borrowed a P2 and it was that ear opening experience that spurred me on to buy a better table and to continue with my vinyl.

Frenchmon, just drop the LP's over to my house and that way you don't have to worry about getting a table and all the hassle. Some of those sellers on CL have to be nuts. I had a guy wanting to sell a bunch of CD's for $1 each and I picked about 30 off his list and he said he'd hang on to them for me but when I tried to buy them he kept standing me up. I mean why bother if you aren't going to follow through?

[frenchmon]

I would look for a used Technics SL-1500 series. From what I understand, they can be had for considerably cheaper than 12XX mk2+. You can also get a mounting plate for different arms from SoundSupports in UK. I just received couple of plate, but no arms...

Whatever you decide to go with, I would defintely go with a used local TT and that's what you seem to want. Looks like you are getting some good advice so best of luck to ya.

Have Fun,
JRA

Thanks JRA...and by the way....I've seen your gear over on the audiogon site....just wonderful, nice stuff.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Monkey business indeed. I don't care for that either. Like I said, plenty of comparable TT's out there.

I think everyone is waiting for your magical budget number, then it's off to the races. Again, the cart is covered so we can focus solely on the table. Sometimes you get lucky and it may have a decent, trustworthy cart installed.

I'm excited for you and can't wait to be a part of the process.

I dont think I want to spend any more than $600 claims. The more I look at the vintage tables the more I see character...but I guess character wont tell you much about how it performs and sounds.

frenchmon

[jrhymeammo]

Thanks JRA...and by the way....I've seen your gear over on the audiogon site....just wonderful, nice stuff.

frenchmon

Thanks.
I'm going to visit a local audio guy tomorrow, and he just received the Clearaudio Concept with Benz cartridge with tons of cool stuff. Maybe it'll make me rething about DD TT.

You may want to keep your eyes open on below link:
I don't a TT, but it should pop up once in a while. You live in much better area than I do, so you should get lucky with a bit of patience.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch...C=63&submit=Go

JRA

[frenchmon]

I had an old Pioneer PL-51 for years. It quit spinning one day so I bought a flashy new Technics Quartz Locked direct drive table. I transfered the cartridge from the Pioneer to the Technics. The Technics sound was so inferior to the Pioneer I took the Technics back and had the PL-51 repaired. It gave good service for several years. I eventually sold it and as far as I know still is going. I've always been skeptical of Technics being on par with other good tables because I haven't heard anything since my experience to change my mind. I always wanted to compare a 1200 but I really suspect it's fame is from the DJ side of things and not sound quality. In fact, it's model being used in an episode of Everyone Hate's Chris as a DJ table further instills my theory. When I worked in sales we sold some DJ tables and they sometimes cost more than the hi fi brands we had but the price wasn't based on sound it was mostly features and durability.

If I were to take a chance on a vintage table I wouldn't hesitate to try another Pioneer or my preference would be Dual.

With that being said my Rega is on an entirely higher level than my old Pioneer was. My P3 is totally stock. They don't "wow" with their looks but they do sound good. When I still had my PL-51 I borrowed a P2 and it was that ear opening experience that spurred me on to buy a better table and to continue with my vinyl.

Frenchmon, just drop the LP's over to my house and that way you don't have to worry about getting a table and all the hassle. Some of those sellers on CL have to be nuts. I had a guy wanting to sell a bunch of CD's for $1 each and I picked about 30 off his list and he said he'd hang on to them for me but when I tried to buy them he kept standing me up. I mean why bother if you aren't going to follow through?

I did see some nice vintage Pioneer tables, and I saw some really nice Dual tables...they have a huge following. But shoot Peabody...you got me thinking now that you say you had that ear opening from the Pioneer to the Rega.

My mom has been on me to come and get the albums out of her house. I think I need to so I can get them all cleaned.

Yes that girl was out of her mind...she tried to get me to pay more than what she advertised at. The Marantz table was nice. If she would have advertised at that price I may have still tried to buy it, but to do it the way she did was foolish.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Thanks.
I'm going to visit a local audio guy tomorrow, and he just received the Clearaudio Concept with Benz cartridge with tons of cool stuff. Maybe it'll make me rething about DD TT.

You may want to keep your eyes open on below link:
I don't a TT, but it should pop up once in a while. You live in much better area than I do, so you should get lucky with a bit of patience.

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch...C=63&submit=Go

JRA

How did you get all things in my area to show? thats great!

Thanks.

[02audionoob]

I dont think I want to spend any more than $600 claims. The more I look at the vintage tables the more I see character...but I guess character wont tell you much about how it performs and sounds.

frenchmon

I think I'd only go the vintage route if I were trying to keep the cost down to maybe $200 to $250. With a $600 budget, I'd absolutely go with something more current. I have a hard time believing any particular one of those 1970's DD tables is vastly superior to the others, so I'm not buying that a Pioneer thrashes a Technics. But...For my own tastes, I wouldn't consider either one if I had $600 to spend on it.

[jrhymeammo]

How did you get all things in my area to show? thats great!

Thanks.

No problem at all.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?0&1&form
Just type in the first 2 digits of your Zip under "Location".

I prefer to use this option when searching for fragile gear.

JRA

[poppachubby]

$600 is a great budget Byron. To give you an example, there's an Ariston RD-11s available locally for $400. Audiophile cared, it already has a wonderful AT cart on it. Still, with the extra 200 you could put a different cart on it OR buy some tweaks/accesories like a brush or a weight OR put it towards a new arm OR buy a wagon full of vinyl....

You get my drift? Don't forget the Genie is $499. Of course with a used deck, your money will take you further. I'll start checking out Agon...

[frenchmon]

$600 is a great budget Byron. To give you an example, there's an Ariston RD-11s available locally for $400. Audiophile cared, it already has a wonderful AT cart on it. Still, with the extra 200 you could put a different cart on it OR buy some tweaks/accesories like a brush or a weight OR put it towards a new arm OR buy a wagon full of vinyl....

You get my drift? Don't forget the Genie is $499. Of course with a used deck, your money will take you further. I'll start checking out Agon...

You know poppaC...Im kinda torn about this TT thing. I've heard from a dealer and I've heard from you guys and some say if its your first table its better to go vintage and then move from there and others say don't waist your time with vintage. so I have to really rethink this thing.

frenchmon

[jrhymeammo]

I've posted a Agon link, but I would like to know what your budget is.
If I were you, I wouldn't get a new $500+ TT for your first TT (in long time). Why spend substantial sum when you are not sure analog is what you want to pursue.

Get a $100 deck with stable speed control and a rigid tonearm. You can always modify it later down the road by applying silly puddy to the bottom to reduce resonance if needed. DIY tweak is always exciting with analog and results are often obvious and rewarding. Match it with a sub $100 MM cart with an elliptical stylus and it should let you know more of what the analog is capabile of.

Have Fun,
JRA

[frenchmon]

I've posted a Agon link, but I would like to know what your budget is.
If I were you, I wouldn't get a new $500+ TT for your first TT (in long time). Why spend substantial sum when you are not sure analog is what you want to pursue.

Get a $100 deck with stable speed control and a rigid tonearm. You can always modify it later down the road by applying silly puddy to the bottom to reduce resonance if needed. DIY tweak is always exciting with analog and results are often obvious and rewarding. Match it with a sub $100 MM cart with an elliptical stylus and it should let you know more of what the analog is capabile of.

Have Fun,
JRA

$600 bucks but I think I am going to take the vintage way first to see if I like it as you suggested .

A local guy has a old pioneer he wants me to look at and selling for 70 bucks. What your link?


frenchmon

[jrhymeammo]

Do you know a model number for the Pioneer?
The link I was talking about was the one from my previous post.
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch...C=63&submit=Go

If it's vintage it'll be nice if it has a working strobe. Some sellers will tell you that you just need to replace a belt to bring it to correct speed, but there are other reasons why they haven't simply replaced its belt...

Best of Luck,
JRA

[02audionoob]

I think for someone with a nice system and a discerning ear trying to see what analog can do requires a good analog setup. Can you truly see what analog can do with an old budget turntable?

[Mr Peabody]

I'm with 02AN on this, you can't really see the potential by buying entry level. I was about to sell off my LP's and analog. My Pioneer was good but not as good as my Krell CDP at the time. I borrowed the P2 and it totally changed my mind. I didn't realize vinyl could sound that good.

[jrhymeammo]

But he really doesn't have other TT to compare it to. I guess it's just a personal preference, but if frenchmon like what $100 TT offers, then he will certainly step up the ladder and go with a solid $500 deck. If I was to spend $500 on a TT, I would make sure my money is well spent on a supplied tonearm.

If I was to start all over again, I would not go for a $100 TT, but I already know analog is something I want to pursue.

JRA

[Mr Peabody]

I know at least one place in town that would allow him to bring something home to audition if he was serious.

Others may have a different view but me personally if the turntable wasn't on par with what ever my current digital rig was it would be a waste of money because I wouldn't listen to it. That's why I sold off all my cassettes and deck. By "on par" I mean at least high enough fidelity I would enjoy it enough to be an alternative to CD. Frenchmon for the most part is a serious listener, not one to just have background music. He listens similar to me, kicked back between the speakers.

[jrhymeammo]

I know at least one place in town that would allow him to bring something home to audition if he was serious.

He listens similar to me, kicked back between the speakers.

I think you've helped me solve it.

[poppachubby]

A local guy has a old pioneer he wants me to look at and selling for 70 bucks.

frenchmon

What's the model number Byron?

As I told you in post 4 (way ahead of my time), I agree with the sentiment that budget may not be satisfying.

However, I also think JRA has a great point regarding upgrading and tweaking an older table. It can be satisfying and rewarding. This of course all depends on whether that's your cup of tea to begin with. For every satisfying moment in analog, there is an equally demoralizing one.

The older tables can be great to learn on. Taking them apart to upgrade and tweak will teach you the ins and outs, and remove any fear or doubt regarding your deck.

I didn't realise that you were having doubts about analog. If this is the case you should buy used. This will minimize any losses should you decide to re-sell.

[frenchmon]

I think for someone with a nice system and a discerning ear trying to see what analog can do requires a good analog setup. Can you truly see what analog can do with an old budget turntable?

I dont know noob, but I really love the way some of those old players look. Some of them in my opinion have such character. Look at these tables....they are beautiful in my opinion.



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Now I've read in places that these old decks sound good when given a little love, but they are not audiophile quality. But they are just stunning with good looks in my opinion...so much character. To me the Music Halls, Pro-ject, Rega's, Denon's, are whatever today just dont look as good, but they may sound better than the old players...i guess not enough audiophile sound quality....whatever that means.

Peabody and I last night listened to an old VPI table...this thing was huge....I dont know about MrP, but to me that thing sounded so good....boy did it sound good. IT was hook up to a Musical Designs tubed preamp, a Musical Designs hybrid tubed amp, Gallo speakers...Analysis Plus speaker cable and inter connects. It sounded good....I told MrPeabody I could just sit on that guys couch all night and just listened to music.


The guy who had it was a dealer of Music Hall and he said he could get the Music Hall 2.2 for $342 buck....


But I saw an old Marantz 6300 that works but needs some love...



The guy across the street from me is a wood worker...he may be able to help me bring it back to its glory days

Dont know what Im going to do as of yet.

I called the guy about the Pioneer on craigslist, he was not in....he has sense then removed it....I forgot which model it was.

frechmon

[frenchmon]

What's the model number Byron?

As I told you in post 4 (way ahead of my time), I agree with the sentiment that budget may not be satisfying.

However, I also think JRA has a great point regarding upgrading and tweaking an older table. It can be satisfying and rewarding. This of course all depends on whether that's your cup of tea to begin with. For every satisfying moment in analog, there is an equally demoralizing one.

The older tables can be great to learn on. Taking them apart to upgrade and tweak will teach you the ins and outs, and remove any fear or doubt regarding your deck.

I didn't realise that you were having doubts about analog. If this is the case you should buy used. This will minimize any losses should you decide to re-sell.

poppaC..you have a few vintage players....a Realistic and a Technics...what is the sound like? Would you describe them as having audiophile quality sound?

The old vintage VPI table Peabody and I listen to last night was a highend quality table back in the day and will still command big bucks today, so I dont think its a good standard to judge the lesser vintage tables with. So is yours an audiophile quality sound and what the heck is audiophile sound any ways?

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

Byron, after tons of love my Pioneer is the best i have. It's not even close to the VPI you listened to. Forget about "audiophile" approval and just start looking at design quality. The better tables are spec'd to the highest tolerances possible. All parts are made to perform flawlessly, allowing the table to spin perfectly, while experiencing no vibration or interference.

Appearance has nothing to do with it. It should be the last consideration. Some of the newer tables employ function BEFORE form. As a result they can be viewed by some as ugly. OIne thing's for sure, they don't sound ugly.

If you want my opinion, combine everything together to find the table that's right for you. Looks and performance in a vintage deck. Your assessments are on par for a VPI table. I think with the right set up, which doesn't have to break your wallet, you will be dropping your CDP at Goodwill. Nothing sounds as good as a mint condition Jazz LP through a tough system, NOTHING!! Trust me, you haven't heard what a tenor sax can sound like through your gear yet...

How about these, keep in mind prices vary depending on the arm, cart and mods. These can be found inside your budget....

Systemdek IIx



Ariston RD-11s



Acoustic Research ES-1



Thorens TD-160

[jrhymeammo]

I have a loaner Thorens TD150mk2 with custom plinth right now. It is matched with my modded RB-250 with usual gear. This table is very very good. The motor puts out audible noise, but is not audible thru my speakers. I'm enjoying organic music I used to relish.
The only problem I see is that I'm already scheming to buy this from him, but I have about 2 weeks to play with it so I'll try to stay cool...

If you have access to a pile of clean LP, why not get a TT? Music is music, right?

[02audionoob]

I feel like I had to decide whether I was buying audio equipment or furniture. My turntable isn't anything special and it won't win any beauty pageants, but I wouldn't trade it for a Marantz 6300, a Dual CS5000, a Pioneer PL-50 or probably any other of those mid-fi beauty queens. I just don't think it takes much to beat them, for my taste. I'll definitely admit the ones Chubbs posted are nice and are good, but I can't get sound I like out of just anything with wood grain and a sexy S-shaped arm.