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  1. #1
    AUTOBOT BRANDONH's Avatar
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    Question QSC MX3000a POWER AMPLIFIER VS. CROWN REFERENCE I STUDIO POWER AMPLIFIER

    QSC MX3000a POWER AMPLIFIER VS. CROWN REFERENCE I STUDIO POWER AMPLIFIER
    I am planning on purchasing the QSC MX3000a Amp http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...Number=245-630
    but I am at a toss up between it and the Crown Studio Reference I.
    http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=245-450
    I know the Crown is more expensive but is it that much better than the QSC?
    Has anyone reviewed these amps and what were your thoughts between the two?

  2. #2
    The Collector
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    depends on what you plan on doing with it. they are both designed for different purposes in mind. personally hands down in a home or studio enviroment the crown will destroy the QSC. if you are looking for a PA amp then the QSC would win out of the two. I've heard them both and I am a dealer for both companies. The MX stuff is on the lower end of the scale for QSC. They have better products in a better price point like the PL-230. Crown also has a better amp in a better price point too. It may not spec the same as the Reference 1 (not much in the world can) but the Crown K2 is a great amp. I have installed them in everything from clubs to homes to touring pa's. The best part is it's convection cooled so no fan noise. It's not as much power either but you will fall in love with it. It was the first PA amp to be reviewed by home audio magazines and it got great reviews. if you have other question i'll gladly answer them.

  3. #3
    AUTOBOT BRANDONH's Avatar
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    Question one more question

    I will be using it for home audio.
    I just could not find any reviews on the MX3000a but it had the power rating I was looking for and lower price.
    I have custom made pro sound speakers and I want more head room than I have now.
    I am using a ATI AT15004 bridged to 450 watts per channel and It does a good job but my speakers are large and power hungry. I went to Crown and read up on the K-2 but it is only 50 watts per channel more than I have now. You have helped me to confirm that the Crown Reference I is the way I should go. I have read many reviews on the Reference One and all but one were good. (one guy said that is should be used in the stuidio only and not home) and some stated that it was a bit bright sounding but tamed down after burn in and the fan was somewhat noisy but did not come on until it was under heavy a load. And they said that it requires a special wall plug with seperate 30amp wiring and not to use the adapter it comes with.
    I have a very discriminating ear so I will have to save up more money and go with the reference series after all.
    Thanks for your help if you have anything to add please do.
    Have a great weekend.

    p.s. Considering the ATI amp I already have and since the MX3000a is THX certified would it be better than what I have now or should I just forget about the MX altogether?
    Brandon
    Last edited by BRANDONH; 08-27-2004 at 11:52 AM. Reason: need to add something

  4. #4
    The Collector
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    forget the MX in general. Another option out there is the Crown I-tech 4000 which is 2000 watts a side in 4 ohm stereo. It sounds great too. I got the pleasure of trying one out. What drivers do your speakers have and is biamping an option. I don't see why a K2 won't be enough power I run 2 18" JBL's NDYM subs off of one and I never have a power issue. Hell for the price of the Reference 1 you can get two K2's and run each in bridge mono for 2500 watts at 4 ohms.

  5. #5
    AUTOBOT BRANDONH's Avatar
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    I just had new custom pro sound passive crossovers made so biamping is not an option.
    Crossovers by Vertek/Xtc http://www.vertekxtc.com/
    I am running per channel 1 x 15' Dayton pro with 4" voice coil as woofer
    http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=295-080&DID=7
    1 x 15" Fane axiom AX.15.300B 300W 40Hz-6.5kHz 100dB Ferrite 84oz. 3" voice coil guitar speaker as a midrange: http://www.fane-acoustics.com/public...ducts2/ax1.htm
    and 1 SELENIUM D210TI 1" TITANIUM COMPRESSION DRIVER as tweeter mounted in 14" x 7" horn lens http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=264-235&DID=7
    I think that running 2 of the Crown K series amps bridged mono is a GREAT IDEA.
    If you think I can go with two of the K-1 amps bridged mono 8 ohms @ 1,100W then that is the way I'll go, and I'll still have plenty of power and save a great deal of money.
    You have been most helpful Plly3s and your assistance is greatly appreciated.
    Kindest regrads
    Brandon

  6. #6
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Brandonh,

    I would be EXTREMLY reticent about using pro amps in a home environment. These amps(which sounds pretty good in clubs, open venues, and in mixing studios) does not have the same imaging capabilities, low noise floor, ability to reveal detail as amps for home use. If you are looking for nothing more than power, then this may be the way to go. If you are looking for power with finesse, look into Cinepro, or used Cal audio labs amps. I have used both at my studio and my hometheater at home, and I assure you they have all the power you need, with the finesse of a audiophile grade product.
    Sir Terrence

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  7. #7
    The Collector
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    Sir Terrence the Terrible, to go against what you said the Pass Labs is considered a pro audio amp and is one the greatest amps on the market. I would also put the crown k2 against most audiophile amps along with the reference 1 and reference 2. you would be suprised at the quality. another thing is most new pro amps come THX certified too. just go to www.crownaudio.com and look at the spec sheets. they are impressive, and go to an audio shop who sells crown and take a listen to them or see if you can get them for audition. even check the specs on their d series amps and i tech amps. all have been reviewed by both professional and home magazines and all have rated them extremely high

  8. #8
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pelly3s
    ...the Pass Labs is considered a pro audio amp and is one the greatest amps on the market.
    Great amps, yes, but how many 175 pound 200 watt class A mono power amps are used in sound reinforcement?

    rw

  9. #9
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

    These amps(which sounds pretty good in clubs, open venues, and in mixing studios) does not have the same imaging capabilities, low noise floor, ability to reveal detail as amps for home use.

    Simply not true.

    To begin with, imaging and revalation of detail have no basis in fact.

    From the Crown website for the Microtech MT1200:

    Noise Floor: 20 Hz to 20 kHz: Better than 100 dB below full bandwidth power.

    This is unweighted, making the absolute broadband noise power around 0.03uW(Full power is 295 watts into 8 ohms). Now do you really think this will result in something above the noise floor of your listening room at your listening position?

    Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): Less than 0.05% at full bandwidth power from 20 Hz to 1kHz increasing linearly to 0.1% at 20 kHz.

    Intermodulation Distortion (IMD): (60 Hz and 7 kHz at 4:1) Less than 0.05% from 163 milliwatts to full bandwidth power.

    Damping Factor: Better than 1,000 from 10Hz to 400 Hz.

    Common Mode Rejection (CMR): At rated full bandwidth power, better than 70 dB from 20 Hz to 1 kHz falling linearly to better than 50 dB at 20 kHz.


    Perfectly respectable numbers.

    The only real concern is that most pro type amps use fans and thier noise could be a problem. The Crown K Series(and similar) do not use fans eliminating that concern.

    -Bruce

  10. #10
    AUTOBOT BRANDONH's Avatar
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    Question Noise Floor?

    Now I am confused
    I am not as technical as most of y'all are and have no idea what a noise floor is.
    Is there a laymans term for this? And what effect it has on the overall sound reproduction?

  11. #11
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRANDONH
    Now I am confused
    I am not as technical as most of y'all are and have no idea what a noise floor is.
    Is there a laymans term for this? And what effect it has on the overall sound reproduction?
    Electronic components all make noise when current is passed through them. If you had a really noisy amp, it would be like listening to fan blade noise, after a while it would be really irritating and could possibly cover up some of your desired music, but we're talking something like a 40dB signal to noise ratio for that to happen.

    Signal to Noise ratio is a way to specify the noise floor number using a positive number. If you were just to say noise floor, it wold be a negative number as referenced to the full power output.

    In other words as both relate to full output power:

    Signal to noise ratio = 100dB

    And noise floor = -100dB

    It's really the same absolute number.

    -Bruce

  12. #12
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRANDONH
    Now I am confused
    I am not as technical as most of y'all are and have no idea what a noise floor is.
    Is there a laymans term for this? And what effect it has on the overall sound reproduction?
    Brandon,

    You are going to find two differing viewpoints here as to what constitutes a good amplifier for use at home. Sir T and I place very little faith in the specifications alone because our experience doesn't support their relevance. There is no question that Crown amps are ruggedly built, quality professional products. I owned a D-150 many a moon ago. If you were to compare, however, the specifications above for the MT1200 above with the DC-300A that dates back thirty years, curiously you will find that they got worse over time. Where the MT1200's distortion is "Less than 0.05% at full bandwidth power from 20 Hz to 1kHz increasing linearly to 0.1% at 20 kHz.", the 1973 amplifier boasts "less than 0.001% from 20hz-400hz and increasingly linearly to 0.05% at 20khz". Where the MT1200's noise is "better than 100 dB below full bandwidth power.", the comparative figure for the DC-300A's hum and noise is "110db below rated output". Interesting. So, has the performance of Crown's amps declined as the numbers suggest? Do the Crown engineers really think that their current crop is less good than the old? Or do those numbers really tell the entire story?

    As for pro amps vs. home amps, here is my humble opinion. While the design criteria for both possess the same elements, the priorties are different. First and foremost, pro amps must be rugged, powerful, cool running, and able to drive extremely low impedance loads. Here is the overview for the MT1200 as found on Crown's website:

    Crown's first touring workhorse, the Micro-Tech Series, delivers industry standard performance and reliability.

    Able to drive low-impedance loads with ease, Micro-Tech amplifiers feature three separate power supplies for exceptional reliability and impressive power ratings. Our patented ODEP circuitry keeps the amplifier working long after others would quit. Grounded bridge circuitry doubles the available voltage without placing output transistors in stressful configurations like other more conventional amplifiers. The unique forced-air cooling system makes certain heat is dissipated quickly and evenly. As a result, you get maximum performance without the threat of damage to the amplifier or other system components.


    Do you see any mention of qualitative performance? Is the word music used at all?

    By contrast, home amplifiers focus on sound quality. Since pelly mentioned Pass Labs, here's the overview for the XA-200s as found on their website:

    "However, for the listener with efficient speakers who truly appreciate the most musical presentation possible, few if any amplifiers can approach the level of detail, intimacy, frequency response and dynamic range that the XA 200 will provide. Lush, detailed midrange, combined with a sweet and silky smooth top end, and the authority and bass control offered by Supersymmetry, works together in an intimate and transparent fashion.

    They don't care about being able to drive a dozen PA bins nor withstanding the rigors of touring. The distortion specification is "gasp" 1% !! Since I have owned both Crown and Pass designed amps, my choice is clear for what I use at home.

    rw

  13. #13
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    Have to agree with E-Stat and Mr Terrible

    I don't believe that any of the currently made Crown amps are intended for home stereo use except for the Studio Reference which probably compares with the old DC300A as their top of the line home or studio amp. It does have very favorable reviews and so did the old DC300A. I had one of them that I bought new in 1975 for around $1200 which was quite expensive back then and I felt that it was well worth it. That old amp just died this summer at nearly 30 years old.
    I believe that the DC300A probably was made better (except for the Studio Reference) at least for home stereo use than these new amps that Crown is making today. The prices and specs also reflect this. You can buy many very poweful amplifiers for a few hundred bucks new whether Crown or others but I don't think that they will sound as good as a quality amp that was made with home stereo use, in mind. Most of them are made to be powerful and durable, which they seem to be but using them in a noisy bar or dance floor won't tell you how they would sound hooked up to your home stereo.
    I always liked my old DC300A, many do not seem to like them, although I'm not sure why. Claiming that they had great specs but sounded horrible, I never found this to be true in any applications over nearly 30 years. That said, I would not buy any new Crown amp except a Studio Reference and I would certainly listen to it before I bought it. I could be wrong about these other Crowns but I'm leery of them if for nothing else, their relative low cost and light weight. My better amps have always been heavy. The weight issue may not be important with new technologies but I still have not heard a featherweight amp with good sound. Just my thoughts and ramblings, something to think about. Good luck,
    Bill

  14. #14
    AUTOBOT BRANDONH's Avatar
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    Should I stay or shopuld I go?

    Hello all thank you very much for all your input on this matter.
    This thread started with QSC MX3000a (THX Certified) Vs Crown Reference 1.
    The QSC has been eliminated and it looks like the Reference 1 is back in the lineup.
    The Reference 1 is the one I have been dreaming about but is is so expensive and requires special 30amp electrical wiring and some say that it is bright sounding and the fan is noisy.
    Is the fan all that noisy? I read that it doesn't come on until the amp is under a heavy load if that is true then I don't see how it could be heard over the music at high volume levels.
    And if listening at low volume levels I'll assume the fan will not come on at all.
    The ATI AT1504 bridge @ 450 watts 8ohm (MFG no longer has specifications on their site)
    http://www.onecall.com/ProductDispla...Specifications
    is the one I am currently running and is a great amp and it really rocks and it does classical very well too.
    It seems to lack the headroom I want.
    I am almost scared to upgrade from my ATI amp to the Studio Reference 1 but the Crown has the power I am looking for.
    http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/studref.htm
    There are no local dealers in my area were I could audition it. I would have to just buy it online and hope it will reproduce the quality sound I am looking for.
    So if we take the power rating between my ATI amp and the Crown amp out of the equation for now will I be happier with the Crown Ref. 1 or should I just stay with my amp.
    The two above links may help you professionals compare the two.
    Brandon

  15. #15
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat


    Do you see any mention of qualitative performance? Is the word music used at all?
    Why restate the obvious? That isn't what is going to seperate their design from others in a competative market.

    By contrast, home amplifiers focus on sound quality. Since pelly mentioned Pass Labs, here's the overview for the XA-200s as found on their website:

    "However, for the listener with efficient speakers who truly appreciate the most musical presentation possible, few if any amplifiers can approach the level of detail, intimacy, frequency response and dynamic range that the XA 200 will provide. Lush, detailed midrange, combined with a sweet and silky smooth top end, and the authority and bass control offered by Supersymmetry, works together in an intimate and transparent fashion.

    They don't care about being able to drive a dozen PA bins nor withstanding the rigors of touring. The distortion specification is "gasp" 1% !! Since I have owned both Crown and Pass designed amps, my choice is clear for what I use at home.

    rw
    Different market, different psychology. This is a really good argument to point out how audiophiles want their egos stroked, while pros want no BS to wade through when they go shopping.

    -Bruce
    Last edited by FLZapped; 09-02-2004 at 02:30 PM.

  16. #16
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRANDONH
    Is the fan all that noisy? I read that it doesn't come on until the amp is under a heavy load if that is true then I don't see how it could be heard over the music at high volume levels.

    Brandon
    You're certainly right about not hearing it over loud music. Where you'll run into the possibility of hearing it is afterward while the unit cools down. I would suspect that it wouldn't crank up to full speed unless it were being driven hard for an extended period of time.

    Chances are it won't be a problem, but I don't have any personal experience with it. There is one reviewer on this site who said they have never had the fan turn on even when they drove the amp fairly hard.

    -Bruce

  17. #17
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Why restate the obvious? That isn't what is going to seperate their design from others in a competative (sic) market.
    That's right. Especially considering how discerning the "disco music" market is!

    ?HIDDEN? POWER
    Under certain conditions, Crown CTs amps can produce power levels far above the published specs. The specs shown in data sheets are very conservative. The data sheet power spec is the rated maximum power per channel with all channels driven with a sine wave.

    But in the real world, not all channels might be playing the same program. You might be playing Disco music on channels 1 and 2, while channels 3 and 4 are inactive except for announcements. In that case, CTs amps can generate significantly higher power than the published spec. That Disco music will really kick.


    Why Crown CTS Amps Sound Better

    Don't forget to read the exciting summary! I really do want to keep the loudness levels up during compression - don't you?

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 09-02-2004 at 07:11 PM.

  18. #18
    The Collector
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Great amps, yes, but how many 175 pound 200 watt class A mono power amps are used in sound reinforcement?

    rw
    pro doesn't always mean live reinforcement, in the pro category you have to look at studio amps and many others which pro audio review just recently did a test of a Pass Labs against a Chord. I will say I would put the K2 into the same class as both of them too. it sounded better on the low end of a pair of Dynaudio M4+'s than the Pass or the Chord. The K2 is probably the most underrated peice of gear in the world. noone sees that is it not only a powerful low draw amp but it is also in the ranks as one of the most transparent amps in the industry

  19. #19
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    That's right. Especially considering how discerning the "disco music" market is!
    Are you always this stupid and bigoted? Or do you just hate Crown? -Bruce

  20. #20
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Are you always this stupid and bigoted? Or do you just hate Crown? -Bruce
    C'mon Bruce - uncomfortable with what they consider their strengths? Any audio company that touts its amp's ability to compress music for the greatest loudness level is not indicative of one that pursues high fidelity. Which is entirely expected in that market niche.

    I had a D-150 many a year ago and found it to be quite reliable. See my comments in another Crown thread. I don't "hate" pickup trucks either, but when performance is desired, a sports car is a better fit.

    rw

  21. #21
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Hey ES, FYI...

    "...That's right. Especially considering how discerning the "disco music" market is!..."

    "... Don't forget to read the exciting summary! I really do want to keep the loudness levels up during compression - don't you?..."

    "...Any audio company that touts its amp's ability to compress music for the greatest loudness level is not indicative of one that pursues high fidelity..."

    Here's a hanky, you have some snot on you...

    "Niches, we got plenty niches" says the Crown website. Looks as though they optimize designs to fit 'em as needs of the business dictate.

    Tsk, tsk...you get a "F" on that one...didn't do our COMPLETE homework, eh?

    ...the original poster inquired as to the Crown Reference Series amps...not the CTs or K-series...the latter two utilize Crown's TLC thermal input compression scheme...the former one doesn't.

    Bruce quoted specs from the Micro-series...designed and built for touring, no TLC in these either...built to withstand ham-handed roadies, most trav'lin' bands don't require "audiophile-grade" distortion specs...

    jimHJJ(...poor, poor Crown...just not "fancy" or expensive enough...)

  22. #22
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    C'mon Bruce - uncomfortable with what they consider their strengths? Any audio company that touts its amp's ability to compress music for the greatest loudness level is not indicative of one that pursues high fidelity. Which is entirely expected in that market niche.

    I had a D-150 many a year ago and found it to be quite reliable. See my comments in another Crown thread. I don't "hate" pickup trucks either, but when performance is desired, a sports car is a better fit.

    rw

    I'm only unconfortable with the fact that you are running all over pulling bits and pieces from multiple models, to try and put down Crown.

    Including the ridiculous suggestion that they only cater to the disco crowd.

    -Bruce

  23. #23
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    I'm only unconfortable with the fact that you are running all over pulling bits and pieces from multiple models, to try and put down Crown.
    By "running all over", I went to The Crown Amplifier Information page for insight. Pro gear is great for pro applications. I find better sounding amps available than pro units, IMHO, having owned both types.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Including the ridiculous suggestion that they only cater to the disco crowd.
    You confuse me with Crown's copy writers. They used that example twice.

    rw

  24. #24
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ..poor, poor Crown...just not "fancy" or expensive enough.
    Or, choice C, optimized for the reasons I stated above, not sound quality.

    BTW, here is my "fancy" amp:



    It's got a power switch and a LED indicator. Sheesh.

    rw

  25. #25
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Summa time Ima get da feelin...

    ...we no speaka da Ingles...

    "...You confuse me with Crown's copy writers. They used that example twice..."

    Yes, indeedy-do...in reference to the CTs and K- series, not the Studio Reference series. I'll bet a few studios might even use the stuff...it's OK to MAKE(and don't get nit-picky about the word) the recordings with, but in my home... heaven forbid!

    "....BTW, here is my "fancy" amp:It's got a power switch and a LED indicator..."

    Since you aren't the only one who in all of human history has found fault with pro gear in a home situation, I was speaking in general. Crown seems to take it's share of lumps because it's too cheeep and doesn't have that high-end (read: "fancy") mystique...

    jimHJJ(...have a safe weekend...)

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