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  1. #1
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRANDONH
    Now I am confused
    I am not as technical as most of y'all are and have no idea what a noise floor is.
    Is there a laymans term for this? And what effect it has on the overall sound reproduction?
    Brandon,

    You are going to find two differing viewpoints here as to what constitutes a good amplifier for use at home. Sir T and I place very little faith in the specifications alone because our experience doesn't support their relevance. There is no question that Crown amps are ruggedly built, quality professional products. I owned a D-150 many a moon ago. If you were to compare, however, the specifications above for the MT1200 above with the DC-300A that dates back thirty years, curiously you will find that they got worse over time. Where the MT1200's distortion is "Less than 0.05% at full bandwidth power from 20 Hz to 1kHz increasing linearly to 0.1% at 20 kHz.", the 1973 amplifier boasts "less than 0.001% from 20hz-400hz and increasingly linearly to 0.05% at 20khz". Where the MT1200's noise is "better than 100 dB below full bandwidth power.", the comparative figure for the DC-300A's hum and noise is "110db below rated output". Interesting. So, has the performance of Crown's amps declined as the numbers suggest? Do the Crown engineers really think that their current crop is less good than the old? Or do those numbers really tell the entire story?

    As for pro amps vs. home amps, here is my humble opinion. While the design criteria for both possess the same elements, the priorties are different. First and foremost, pro amps must be rugged, powerful, cool running, and able to drive extremely low impedance loads. Here is the overview for the MT1200 as found on Crown's website:

    Crown's first touring workhorse, the Micro-Tech Series, delivers industry standard performance and reliability.

    Able to drive low-impedance loads with ease, Micro-Tech amplifiers feature three separate power supplies for exceptional reliability and impressive power ratings. Our patented ODEP circuitry keeps the amplifier working long after others would quit. Grounded bridge circuitry doubles the available voltage without placing output transistors in stressful configurations like other more conventional amplifiers. The unique forced-air cooling system makes certain heat is dissipated quickly and evenly. As a result, you get maximum performance without the threat of damage to the amplifier or other system components.


    Do you see any mention of qualitative performance? Is the word music used at all?

    By contrast, home amplifiers focus on sound quality. Since pelly mentioned Pass Labs, here's the overview for the XA-200s as found on their website:

    "However, for the listener with efficient speakers who truly appreciate the most musical presentation possible, few if any amplifiers can approach the level of detail, intimacy, frequency response and dynamic range that the XA 200 will provide. Lush, detailed midrange, combined with a sweet and silky smooth top end, and the authority and bass control offered by Supersymmetry, works together in an intimate and transparent fashion.

    They don't care about being able to drive a dozen PA bins nor withstanding the rigors of touring. The distortion specification is "gasp" 1% !! Since I have owned both Crown and Pass designed amps, my choice is clear for what I use at home.

    rw

  2. #2
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    Have to agree with E-Stat and Mr Terrible

    I don't believe that any of the currently made Crown amps are intended for home stereo use except for the Studio Reference which probably compares with the old DC300A as their top of the line home or studio amp. It does have very favorable reviews and so did the old DC300A. I had one of them that I bought new in 1975 for around $1200 which was quite expensive back then and I felt that it was well worth it. That old amp just died this summer at nearly 30 years old.
    I believe that the DC300A probably was made better (except for the Studio Reference) at least for home stereo use than these new amps that Crown is making today. The prices and specs also reflect this. You can buy many very poweful amplifiers for a few hundred bucks new whether Crown or others but I don't think that they will sound as good as a quality amp that was made with home stereo use, in mind. Most of them are made to be powerful and durable, which they seem to be but using them in a noisy bar or dance floor won't tell you how they would sound hooked up to your home stereo.
    I always liked my old DC300A, many do not seem to like them, although I'm not sure why. Claiming that they had great specs but sounded horrible, I never found this to be true in any applications over nearly 30 years. That said, I would not buy any new Crown amp except a Studio Reference and I would certainly listen to it before I bought it. I could be wrong about these other Crowns but I'm leery of them if for nothing else, their relative low cost and light weight. My better amps have always been heavy. The weight issue may not be important with new technologies but I still have not heard a featherweight amp with good sound. Just my thoughts and ramblings, something to think about. Good luck,
    Bill

  3. #3
    AUTOBOT BRANDONH's Avatar
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    Should I stay or shopuld I go?

    Hello all thank you very much for all your input on this matter.
    This thread started with QSC MX3000a (THX Certified) Vs Crown Reference 1.
    The QSC has been eliminated and it looks like the Reference 1 is back in the lineup.
    The Reference 1 is the one I have been dreaming about but is is so expensive and requires special 30amp electrical wiring and some say that it is bright sounding and the fan is noisy.
    Is the fan all that noisy? I read that it doesn't come on until the amp is under a heavy load if that is true then I don't see how it could be heard over the music at high volume levels.
    And if listening at low volume levels I'll assume the fan will not come on at all.
    The ATI AT1504 bridge @ 450 watts 8ohm (MFG no longer has specifications on their site)
    http://www.onecall.com/ProductDispla...Specifications
    is the one I am currently running and is a great amp and it really rocks and it does classical very well too.
    It seems to lack the headroom I want.
    I am almost scared to upgrade from my ATI amp to the Studio Reference 1 but the Crown has the power I am looking for.
    http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/studref.htm
    There are no local dealers in my area were I could audition it. I would have to just buy it online and hope it will reproduce the quality sound I am looking for.
    So if we take the power rating between my ATI amp and the Crown amp out of the equation for now will I be happier with the Crown Ref. 1 or should I just stay with my amp.
    The two above links may help you professionals compare the two.
    Brandon

  4. #4
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRANDONH
    Is the fan all that noisy? I read that it doesn't come on until the amp is under a heavy load if that is true then I don't see how it could be heard over the music at high volume levels.

    Brandon
    You're certainly right about not hearing it over loud music. Where you'll run into the possibility of hearing it is afterward while the unit cools down. I would suspect that it wouldn't crank up to full speed unless it were being driven hard for an extended period of time.

    Chances are it won't be a problem, but I don't have any personal experience with it. There is one reviewer on this site who said they have never had the fan turn on even when they drove the amp fairly hard.

    -Bruce

  5. #5
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat


    Do you see any mention of qualitative performance? Is the word music used at all?
    Why restate the obvious? That isn't what is going to seperate their design from others in a competative market.

    By contrast, home amplifiers focus on sound quality. Since pelly mentioned Pass Labs, here's the overview for the XA-200s as found on their website:

    "However, for the listener with efficient speakers who truly appreciate the most musical presentation possible, few if any amplifiers can approach the level of detail, intimacy, frequency response and dynamic range that the XA 200 will provide. Lush, detailed midrange, combined with a sweet and silky smooth top end, and the authority and bass control offered by Supersymmetry, works together in an intimate and transparent fashion.

    They don't care about being able to drive a dozen PA bins nor withstanding the rigors of touring. The distortion specification is "gasp" 1% !! Since I have owned both Crown and Pass designed amps, my choice is clear for what I use at home.

    rw
    Different market, different psychology. This is a really good argument to point out how audiophiles want their egos stroked, while pros want no BS to wade through when they go shopping.

    -Bruce
    Last edited by FLZapped; 09-02-2004 at 02:30 PM.

  6. #6
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Why restate the obvious? That isn't what is going to seperate their design from others in a competative (sic) market.
    That's right. Especially considering how discerning the "disco music" market is!

    ?HIDDEN? POWER
    Under certain conditions, Crown CTs amps can produce power levels far above the published specs. The specs shown in data sheets are very conservative. The data sheet power spec is the rated maximum power per channel with all channels driven with a sine wave.

    But in the real world, not all channels might be playing the same program. You might be playing Disco music on channels 1 and 2, while channels 3 and 4 are inactive except for announcements. In that case, CTs amps can generate significantly higher power than the published spec. That Disco music will really kick.


    Why Crown CTS Amps Sound Better

    Don't forget to read the exciting summary! I really do want to keep the loudness levels up during compression - don't you?

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 09-02-2004 at 07:11 PM.

  7. #7
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    That's right. Especially considering how discerning the "disco music" market is!
    Are you always this stupid and bigoted? Or do you just hate Crown? -Bruce

  8. #8
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Are you always this stupid and bigoted? Or do you just hate Crown? -Bruce
    C'mon Bruce - uncomfortable with what they consider their strengths? Any audio company that touts its amp's ability to compress music for the greatest loudness level is not indicative of one that pursues high fidelity. Which is entirely expected in that market niche.

    I had a D-150 many a year ago and found it to be quite reliable. See my comments in another Crown thread. I don't "hate" pickup trucks either, but when performance is desired, a sports car is a better fit.

    rw

  9. #9
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    Hey ES, FYI...

    "...That's right. Especially considering how discerning the "disco music" market is!..."

    "... Don't forget to read the exciting summary! I really do want to keep the loudness levels up during compression - don't you?..."

    "...Any audio company that touts its amp's ability to compress music for the greatest loudness level is not indicative of one that pursues high fidelity..."

    Here's a hanky, you have some snot on you...

    "Niches, we got plenty niches" says the Crown website. Looks as though they optimize designs to fit 'em as needs of the business dictate.

    Tsk, tsk...you get a "F" on that one...didn't do our COMPLETE homework, eh?

    ...the original poster inquired as to the Crown Reference Series amps...not the CTs or K-series...the latter two utilize Crown's TLC thermal input compression scheme...the former one doesn't.

    Bruce quoted specs from the Micro-series...designed and built for touring, no TLC in these either...built to withstand ham-handed roadies, most trav'lin' bands don't require "audiophile-grade" distortion specs...

    jimHJJ(...poor, poor Crown...just not "fancy" or expensive enough...)

  10. #10
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ..poor, poor Crown...just not "fancy" or expensive enough.
    Or, choice C, optimized for the reasons I stated above, not sound quality.

    BTW, here is my "fancy" amp:



    It's got a power switch and a LED indicator. Sheesh.

    rw

  11. #11
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    C'mon Bruce - uncomfortable with what they consider their strengths? Any audio company that touts its amp's ability to compress music for the greatest loudness level is not indicative of one that pursues high fidelity. Which is entirely expected in that market niche.

    I had a D-150 many a year ago and found it to be quite reliable. See my comments in another Crown thread. I don't "hate" pickup trucks either, but when performance is desired, a sports car is a better fit.

    rw

    I'm only unconfortable with the fact that you are running all over pulling bits and pieces from multiple models, to try and put down Crown.

    Including the ridiculous suggestion that they only cater to the disco crowd.

    -Bruce

  12. #12
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    I'm only unconfortable with the fact that you are running all over pulling bits and pieces from multiple models, to try and put down Crown.
    By "running all over", I went to The Crown Amplifier Information page for insight. Pro gear is great for pro applications. I find better sounding amps available than pro units, IMHO, having owned both types.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    Including the ridiculous suggestion that they only cater to the disco crowd.
    You confuse me with Crown's copy writers. They used that example twice.

    rw

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