best budget integrated amp?

[markw]

Well if the distortion is bad coming through my tube pre, some body sho in hell for got to tell my tube pre because its been going strong now for about 5 hours and she sounding really really good...no, excellent!

Funny, betcha us solid state guys can say the same thing. I know I sure can.

Let's face it, you "tubies" just love throwing out those stoopid generalizations and hyperbole. Just look at the recent contributions from you guys in this thread alone.

So, if y'all want to maintain any credibility, just quietly keep enjoying your tubes, but please keep your unbridled, almost obsessive, love for the pleasure you derive from playing with them to yourselves. It just looks really weird when you go public with it and kinda creeps us out.

[frenchmon]

Funny, betcha us solid state guys can say the same thing. I know I sure can.

Let's face it, you "tubies" just love throwing out those stoopid generalizations and hyperbole. Just look at the recent contributions from you guys in this thread alone.

So, if y'all want to maintain any credibility, just quietly keep enjoying your tubes, but please keep your unbridled, almost obsessive, love for the pleasure you derive from playing with them to yourselves. It just looks really weird when you go public with it and kinda creeps us out.

What!!!! Some body spit in your corn flakes or something?. I got solid state as well. I aint feeling the love man. I aint saying one is better than the other....just different.

[RGA]

While we're generalizing, tube amps have more distortion then solid state amps and, as we all know, distortion is bad, except perhaps for Jimi Hendrix and the like.

Enjoy your Kool-aid, boys, Some people can sell it succesfully, like Jim Jones, but society hasn't bought it, and never will.

Measure a SET amp at .001 watt - then measure most SS amps at .001 watt - SETs when not driven into clipping have FAR superior measured performance than any SS amp - crossover distortion - SET doesn't crossover. Measure a feedback amp BEFORE the feedback loop engages to artificially make the numbers look better (when in fact they're not). The fact that SS is dirt cheap to make and far more profitable as a result. The Kool-Aid is is believing cheap parts at sometimes high prices = good sound.

See SS amps need a bucket of corrective measures just to remotely work properly.

Consider the folks on forums who blather about power and loads. I need a 3000 watt Krell amp to drive my 1 ohm speaker nonsense. Yeah a combo that generally sounds lousy but what all these people fail to realize is that the ONLY amps that are truly LOAD STABLE are Single Ended amplifiers.

WHAT? Oh yeah didn't you know those pathetic expensive SS amps of a billion watts need fuse protection - if they could actually DRIVE difficult loads they would not need it. Take an Audio Note kit one - put a screwdrive across the outputs and run the amp 24/7 for a year. The amp is driving an infinite load - that is load stable - it can drive ANY load. Now take your SS amp and remove the protection circuitry and stick a screwdriver across the outputs of you Krell or $30,000 Bryston amp - and within 5 minutes you'll need a fire extinguisher. Hell Krell catches on fire even when they have their fuses in place.

It's funny but SET amps have NEVER lost a blind level matched audition - ever. Even the Sugden which is a SS Set has beaten every amp it's ever gone up against despite having more distortion.

Amplifier distortion is a fraction of the distortion of even the best speakers - far less distortion than what a Magnepan or Quad puts out. Distortion is a no starter - the only time a SET distorts is when it is driven beyond it's ability - umm guess what buddy - do that to a SS amp and the distortion is about 100 times worse. At least second harmonic distortion is easy on the ears - when a Krell clips it's frightening - and usually takes out the speaker.

It is impossible to blow a speaker with a 3 watt amp - not so with your 150 watt Krell/Bryston whatever.

Sadly the SS kool-aid is drunk by the numbers is better fools. More damping factor, more feedback, more watts - must be good - selling bigger is better to male shoppers makes sense from a marketing standpoint - most men are easily led by bigger and more is better.

[markw]

Measure a SET amp at .001 watt - then measure most SS amps at .001 watt - SETs when not driven into clipping have FAR superior measured performance than any SS amp - crossover distortion - SET doesn't crossover. Measure a feedback amp BEFORE the feedback loop engages to artificially make the numbers look better (when in fact they're not). The fact that SS is dirt cheap to make and far more profitable as a result. The Kool-Aid is is believing cheap parts at sometimes high prices = good sound.

See SS amps need a bucket of corrective measures just to remotely work properly.

Consider the folks on forums who blather about power and loads. I need a 3000 watt Krell amp to drive my 1 ohm speaker nonsense. Yeah a combo that generally sounds lousy but what all these people fail to realize is that the ONLY amps that are truly LOAD STABLE are Single Ended amplifiers.

WHAT? Oh yeah didn't you know those pathetic expensive SS amps of a billion watts need fuse protection - if they could actually DRIVE difficult loads they would not need it. Take an Audio Note kit one - put a screwdrive across the outputs and run the amp 24/7 for a year. The amp is driving an infinite load - that is load stable - it can drive ANY load. Now take your SS amp and remove the protection circuitry and stick a screwdriver across the outputs of you Krell or $30,000 Bryston amp - and within 5 minutes you'll need a fire extinguisher. Hell Krell catches on fire even when they have their fuses in place.

It's funny but SET amps have NEVER lost a blind level matched audition - ever. Even the Sugden which is a SS Set has beaten every amp it's ever gone up against despite having more distortion.

Amplifier distortion is a fraction of the distortion of even the best speakers - far less distortion than what a Magnepan or Quad puts out. Distortion is a no starter - the only time a SET distorts is when it is driven beyond it's ability - umm guess what buddy - do that to a SS amp and the distortion is about 100 times worse. At least second harmonic distortion is easy on the ears - when a Krell clips it's frightening - and usually takes out the speaker.

It is impossible to blow a speaker with a 3 watt amp - not so with your 150 watt Krell/Bryston whatever.

Sadly the SS kool-aid is drunk by the numbers is better fools. More damping factor, more feedback, more watts - must be good - selling bigger is better to male shoppers makes sense from a marketing standpoint - most men are easily led by bigger and more is better.

Whatever, RGA. You can feel free to beleve whatever warm, fuzzy philosophies you wish, but the world does seem to see otherwise. ..thankfully.

And, since you like to point out here that speakers themselves add more distortion than amps, doesn't that make your distortion rants somewhat moot? In any case, the best way to avoid (amplifier) distortion is to have enough to not drive the poor thing into clipping, doncha think? Most sensible people have realized that the best way to prevent distortion from over-driving is to, well, simply have enough clean power to avoid that situation.

But, at least you do admit that you like the sweet, syrupy sound of even-order harmonics. Rock musicians have known that for ages. That's a preference, not necessarily a positive attribute in music reproduction.

Finally, I do like the way you try to drag sexism into it by saying that having more power is a male trait. Not to sound too Freudian, but are you sure you're not trying to justify a lack of something here? Is this your way of saying "it ain't the meat, it's the motion"? Or is it that you just like looking at that big, bulbous tube that turns you on? No problem, dude, amplifier power you can buy. Self-esteem, well...

[Poultrygeist]

I live in the largest city in my state and none of the audio stores here sell SET's.

I wonder how many of you SS guys have ever heard one?

[Poultrygeist]

It took this turkey 40 years to get there.

So markw, you've still got time.

[markw]

It took this turkey 40 years to get there.

So markw, you've still got time.

Doubt it. I've got a son older than that and I built my first amp, a SEP for that matter, in '62.

So, start working on "everybody" else.

[Feanor]

Doubt it. I've got a son older than that and I built my first amp, a SEP for that matter, in '62.

So, start working on "everybody" else.

SET/OTL is true religion. And Mark, as you know, there's no arguing with true religion.

[RGA]

SET/OTL is true religion. And Mark, as you know, there's no arguing with true religion.

No it's not a religion - it is objectively superior sound. Objectively superior is run a blind audition and listen and most of the time - every time I am aware of - the SET is chosen as the best sound - even by top SS manufacturers selling expensive solid state amplifiers. See that is OBJECTIVE. What is not objective is seeing a graph or a THD spec and making an assumption that it is better without any first hand experience. That's a religion - the religion of the spec sheet.

There is also correlational evidence - see that most speaker makers bring tubes and SET amps to an expensive audio show where they want to put their speaker's best attributes forward. Most bring some sort of tube. Hmm. Reviewers - look at the total number of amplifier sales and reviews and see what most of them actually buy. Not all - but there is a big big correlation there.

And anytime a Magnepan owner starts throwing the religion card - look in the bloody mirror - there's a religion that borders on scientology.

[JohnMichael]

I find it interesting that some people think they know what should sound good to me. I have listened to a few tube amps including a monster McIntosh amp. I just do not get the sound of tubes. If you enjoy tubes well that is great. Enjoy what you enjoy as will I. My problem arises when you tell me I am wrong. I am right for me.

I enjoyed when Bob Carver designed a solid state amp to sound like a tube amp based on a tube amps measurements and distortion patterns. I enjoyed the time Stereophile tested a Cary tube amp and compared it to a tone control for it's far from flat frequency response.

RGA during his promotion of AN mentioned some Krell's that had problems. Now I would like to hear about all the reliability problems of tube amps and their tubes.

[Feanor]

No it's not a religion - it is objectively superior sound. Objectively superior is run a blind audition and listen and most of the time - every time I am aware of - the SET is chosen as the best sound - even by top SS manufacturers selling expensive solid state amplifiers. See that is OBJECTIVE. What is not objective is seeing a graph or a THD spec and making an assumption that it is better without any first hand experience. That's a religion - the religion of the spec sheet.

There is also correlational evidence - see that most speaker makers bring tubes and SET amps to an expensive audio show where they want to put their speaker's best attributes forward. Most bring some sort of tube. Hmm. Reviewers - look at the total number of amplifier sales and reviews and see what most of them actually buy. Not all - but there is a big big correlation there.

And anytime a Magnepan owner starts throwing the religion card - look in the bloody mirror - there's a religion that borders on scientology.

Thanks, RGA -- for proving my point.

[markw]

SET/OTL is true religion. And Mark, as you know, there's no arguing with true religion.

Not really. This is verifiable, testable science although some do share some traits with scientologists, a religion recently created by a science fiction writer. (Battleground: Earth)

FWIW, I find scientology an insult to both religion and good science fiction writers and it's followers fools.

Religion is pure faith that cannot be measured in any scientific way Electronics was created by man and lays no claim to supernatural forces.

I also find it interesting that if one doesn't buy into it, one is either deaf or a troll. What's that river in Egypt?

I think this thread has been quite refreshing, kind of like flushing the stables with water. I'm sure a lot of lurkers got some enjoyment here. I certainly did.

[Poultrygeist]

Here is an interesting video of the $229 Miniwatt SET driving a pair of $29,000 MBL 116.


miniwatt S1 - Amplifiers

[markw]

Here is an interesting video of the $229 Miniwatt SET driving a pair of $29,000 MBL 116.


miniwatt S1 - Amplifiers

Funny, it didn't sound too great to me. If you, or anybody for that matter, thinks a video on the internet will impress any sentient beings, then the sanity and/or gullibility of their target market speaks for itself.

"Hey,Cletus! Y'all come har 'n lissen to how great this Bose thingie sounds! Thar playin it rat now rat cheer on the TV box!!! Yee Ha! I shore gotta get me one of those"

With your extensive experience in this field you should be aware that even a watt or so will make some noise from virtually any speaker. How loud and how good it is is another matter entirely. Back in"the day" I drove a friends AR3 (not even an "a") with a one tube (50L6) amp which I'd say put out maybe one watt, going downhill with a stiff backwind, and it sounded "decent" until it was called upon to do anything like volume or bass.

While we're on this subject, here's a video of a chihuahua humping a great dane.

[frenchmon]

Here is an interesting video of the $229 Miniwatt SET driving a pair of $29,000 MBL 116.


miniwatt S1 - Amplifiers

Hey man, I've seen those clips before...and i've known about the little amps for a long time.....but my question to you is...what makes you think that is better than SS? And if one does not think its better, does that make him wrong? Did you notice how many turns of the wheel it took to get good volume?....just sayin.

[Poultrygeist]

The MBL 116 is like 83db's so it's amazing 2.5 watts could even move the drivers. The Miniwatt is much better matched with Zu's.

Here's Srajan Ebaen's review of the Miniwatt for the non-believers.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/m...t/miniwatt.htm

[frenchmon]

The MBL 116 is like 83db's so it's amazing 2.5 watts could even move the drivers. The Miniwatt is much better matched with Zu's.

Here's Srajan Ebaen's review of the Miniwatt for the non-believers.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/m...t/miniwatt.htm

What do you mean by non-believers? And you still did not answer the question I asked above.

[markw]

What do you mean by non-believers? And you still did not answer the question I asked above.

As if we couldn't post hundreds of glowing reviews of high powered solid state amps?

Fetish - look it up.

[Poultrygeist]

A few years ago I owned what many consider to be a pretty good example of the ss amp - the Classe CAP-150. When new it sold for a few grand. While it performed very well and had the big watt slam factor, it never drew me into the music like the SET's do. When I try to remain detached and objectively evaluate what I'm hearing with the 2a3 or the Minwatt I get so distracted by the music I usually forget what I'm trying to accomplish.

After living with the Classe for awhile it started to seem sterile, fatiguing, way too clinical and devoid of life compared to the purity, solid imagery and hauntingly holographic sound stage I get from the simple circuit triodes.

There are probably more different sounding tube amps than ss but the triodes are a SET apart ( pun intended ).

[JohnMichael]

A few years ago I owned what many consider to be a pretty good example of the ss amp - the Classe CAP-150. When new it sold for a few grand. While it performed very well and had the big watt slam factor, it never drew me into the music like the SET's do. When I try to remain detached and objectively evaluate what I'm hearing with the 2a3 or the Minwatt I get so distracted by the music I usually forget what I'm trying to accomplish.

After living with the Classe for awhile it started to seem sterile, fatiguing, way too clinical and devoid of life compared to the purity, solid imagery and hauntingly holographic sound stage I get from the simple circuit triodes.

There are probably more different sounding tube amps than ss but the triodes are a SET apart ( pun intended ).

I am glad you enjoy what you enjoy. We had a local audio store where the owner kept pushing his interests on others to the point where he is out of business. You can lose out if you keep pushing your ideas and ignoring what is important to others.

[RGA]

A few years ago I owned what many consider to be a pretty good example of the ss amp - the Classe CAP-150. When new it sold for a few grand. While it performed very well and had the big watt slam factor, it never drew me into the music like the SET's do. When I try to remain detached and objectively evaluate what I'm hearing with the 2a3 or the Minwatt I get so distracted by the music I usually forget what I'm trying to accomplish.

After living with the Classe for awhile it started to seem sterile, fatiguing, way too clinical and devoid of life compared to the purity, solid imagery and hauntingly holographic sound stage I get from the simple circuit triodes.

There are probably more different sounding tube amps than ss but the triodes are a SET apart ( pun intended ).

The link I provided earlier from the Bryston owner made a good analogy - "I realised then what it is about solid state audio that makes me uneasy and dissatisfied. It's analogous to the feeling I get working under fluorescent strip lights with their 50Hz switching cycle. It's light right enough, but it makes me feel uneasy and eventually fatigued." General Asylum: REVIEW: Audio Note Level 3 system Other by KevinF

I grew up with SS amplifiers - and ultimately that analogy holds true IME

[Poultrygeist]

JohnMichael do you believe an audio forum could survive for long if all the members shared the same opinions?

[markw]

JohnMichael do you believe an audio forum could survive for long if all the members shared the same opinions?

This place could use the action and when you two get rolling it's almost like having Spanky posting about his beloved JBL Control series speakers..

[Jack in Wilmington]

This place could use the action and when you two get rolling it's almost like having Spanky posting about his beloved JBL Control series speakers..

Watch out Mark, you may wake the sleeping troll.

[JohnMichael]

JohnMichael do you believe an audio forum could survive for long if all the members shared the same opinions?

No but when I post that I am not interested and someone keeps quoting me and telling me I am wrong for not listening to tubes. Yes we need exchange of ideas but the same ideas again and again is not an exchange but preaching.