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  1. #1
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool The next big battle

    Since mr P banned me from his thread.
    They are talking about getting rid of broadcast TV!
    Saw a few ads on TV about fighting the move away from broadcast,
    then heard a report about it this morning.
    SEEMS SOME THINK that all of this bandwidth would be better served by
    nerds downloading the latest shooter on their smart fones.
    But what are the alkies going to watch between the five minutes from waking up
    to getting to the liquor cabinet?
    Will the rednecks go crazy fiddling with the coathanger hanging outside their
    doublewide looking for a nonexistent signal?
    The nets and local broadcasters will still be there, poor relations with their govt mandated spot on cable, but its a long way from their once dominant spot.
    The heck with em.
    They fought MTS STEREO.
    They fought HD TV .
    Anything that cost a few bucks, THEY FOUGHT.
    And they turned up the vollume during commercials, waking you from that sound sleep that their programming lulled you into.
    Who needs em?
    I got Outer space astronauts on SYFY .
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  2. #2
    Sophisticated Red Neck manlystanley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Will the rednecks go crazy fiddling with the coathanger hanging outside their
    doublewide looking for a nonexistent signal?
    .

    Your way behind the times:

    -- We rednecks have moved way beyond coat hangers. We're now into buying wire and stringing it between trees. Besides making better reception, it adds some excitement whenever thunder storms move through.

    -- Doublewides?? Who can afford one of those? That's what we aspire to. Most of us use broken down mobile homes that are towed into place. With the price of gas they are more plentiful then before.


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  3. #3
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    I still use Broadcast tv and vowed never to pay for it until it was unavailable. Screw cable and dish! When cable first came out, it was touted to be so great due to no commercials. Now cable has just as many or more commercials than OTA.

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    I didn't ban you from the thread just making predictions

    They will never get that past. Look how many local stations and employees would lose their jobs, not to mention the vital service our local stations bring. How else would we get local news and events? Not to mention how many people can't afford cable or satelite. There are still some independent stations around. Ours used to be great but now subscribe to programming from WB or whatever that other brand of programming is.

    Where did you see this? It don't make sense. Why would the feds spend billions on converter boxes so people can have OTA then attempt to turn it off? Of course, government and good sense seldom meet.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I didn't ban you from the thread just making predictions

    They will never get that past. Look how many local stations and employees would lose their jobs, not to mention the vital service our local stations bring. How else would we get local news and events? Not to mention how many people can't afford cable or satelite. There are still some independent stations around. Ours used to be great but now subscribe to programming from WB or whatever that other brand of programming is.

    Where did you see this? It don't make sense. Why would the feds spend billions on converter boxes so people can have OTA then attempt to turn it off? Of course, government and good sense seldom meet.

    They are not doing away with local broadcasters, just the OVER THE AIR PART.
    Now really, when was the last time you watched the locals over the air?
    Its a lot more important that Todd and Buffy be able to download drinking apps
    to their smart fones.
    I mean, we gotta get our priorities straight.
    AND IN THIS DAY AND AGE, ALL OF THAT BANDWIDTH FOR FREE?
    Knew that couldnt last.:1
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  6. #6
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    As for where I saw it, in two places, an AD on the local Fox affiliate(an expensive
    ad) and a report on the WSJ newshour on the RADIO.
    Remember radio?
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  7. #7
    Forum Regular pixelthis's Avatar
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    Cool

    And what do you mean just for making predictions??
    Hmmm?
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  8. #8
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Pix, I know what you are trying to say, but there are some inaccuracies in your post.




    Quote Originally Posted by pixelthis
    Since mr P banned me from his thread.
    They are talking about getting rid of broadcast TV!
    Saw a few ads on TV about fighting the move away from broadcast,
    then heard a report about it this morning.
    SEEMS SOME THINK that all of this bandwidth would be better served by
    nerds downloading the latest shooter on their smart fones.
    It is not they are trying to get rid of broadcast television, it is a combination of two realities coming to pass. The first issue is business model. Free broadcast TV is supported by advertising dollars, and that money is moving away from broadcast television and towards the web. The networks are following that money and the business model of the cable companies as the current broadcast business model is breaking down. I would say in less than ten years, you will have to pay a fee for ALL content you watch, and it will probably be on the web instead of over the air. Secondly, congress wants the spectrum that broadcast currently sits on for wireless technology after transitioning broadcast over to digital to lessen its footprint "in the air". Google and Microsoft want this spectrum, and let's face it, they have more money than the networks do, and quite frankly more power as well. The FCC approves of this move, and the stupid thing is the FCC was created to mandate broadcasters, and this action could mean a huge loss of power and visibility. In others words, they are voting against their own interests, much like most Americans do.


    The nets and local broadcasters will still be there, poor relations with their govt mandated spot on cable, but its a long way from their once dominant spot.
    The heck with em.
    It is not the fault of the networks, its the feds and the American public that is driving this change. People just like you who stream through Hulu and the various other sites. You folks are fueling this change.


    They fought MTS STEREO.
    No they didn't. They really wanted stereo so they could compete with the theaters at that time. Stereo was a cheap upgrade

    They fought HD TV .
    Anything that cost a few bucks, THEY FOUGHT.
    No, they fought being mandated to change without funding to do it. The upgrade to DTV (not everyone is HD) costs between hundreds of thousand for local stations (where the market could not support it financially) to millions for network owned and affiliates. Local stations and the Networks didn't have the cash to do this transition when it was mandated, so they didn't want something imposed on them that they could not afford. I think every American should understand that completely


    And they turned up the vollume during commercials, waking you from that sound sleep that their programming lulled you into.
    Who needs em?
    I got Outer space astronauts on SYFY .
    No they do not turn up the volume on commercials. Program material is not as compressed dynamically as commercials are. There are spaces of silence, and lower level sounds can easily be discerned. Commercials are heavily compressed with the volume pumped up as close to digital zero as it can be for maximum impact. They advertisers like it that way. All broadcasting antennas have limiters to prevent overload, so the volume has a maximum gain imposed on it. Commercials are loud because the programming on before and after is not heavily compressed with its volume pumped up to the hilt. Commercials are not shot and mixed by the networks, they are mixed by post houses like mine, and the audio engineer has been given instructions to compress and push the volume.
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    It seems there would have to be OTA for emergency and public service. As I stated look at all the converter boxes sold. There are still many who use OTA. During the occasional bad storm when satelite signal is lost I will use OTA. I still think if this comes to light where people wake up to what's happening it will never pass.

  10. #10
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    It seems there would have to be OTA for emergency and public service. As I stated look at all the converter boxes sold. There are still many who use OTA. During the occasional bad storm when satelite signal is lost I will use OTA. I still think if this comes to light where people wake up to what's happening it will never pass.
    Unfortunately the people will not have a choice in this one Mr. P. This change is not up for vote, it is a money thing. The thing is, unless the local station broadcast news 24/7, there isn't going to be much programming for them. Public stations may be the last man standing in this, as the networks are already making plans for this transition. If you look at the battle between Fox and Time/Warner cable, Fox wants to charge cable for all of its programming - a lot more. You will see quite a few more battles just like this in the coming future as advertising money dries up for broadcast television. Without advertising money, the Networks will be unable to continue broadcasting. Public television is funded more and more by the public, and less and less from the federal government. So for public broadcasting, you are essentially paying for programming even though it is free sort of speak to the public.

    You know our government is not always very smart. Those converter boxes just mean that when all is done, what is left will be digital and that is it. The feds cannot stop the networks from moving to the cable model, as a matter of fact, they are encouraging it so they can get the sell the broadcast frequencies that are left. It is worth billions, and Google or Microsoft will pay for it no problem. Rumor has it that Google wants it so they can create their own wireless network system.
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  11. #11
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    I don't understand what you mean. If CBS sells Tide a spot during David Letterman, that spot gets seen by CBS affiliates OTA as well as that same station on cable and satelite. Satelite still don't have the bandwidth to carry all local programming. It seems to me if you turn off OTA it would limit further the number of people capable of seeing the commercial. Also, it would seem to me less likely OTA commercials would be skipped by people using Tivo or DVR devices. OTA is a bit more involved to record, or at least not as convenient.

  12. #12
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Unfortunately the people will not have a choice in this one Mr. P. This change is not up for vote, it is a money thing. The thing is, unless the local station broadcast news 24/7, there isn't going to be much programming for them. Public stations may be the last man standing in this, as the networks are already making plans for this transition. If you look at the battle between Fox and Time/Warner cable, Fox wants to charge cable for all of its programming - a lot more. You will see quite a few more battles just like this in the coming future as advertising money dries up for broadcast television. Without advertising money, the Networks will be unable to continue broadcasting. Public television is funded more and more by the public, and less and less from the federal government. So for public broadcasting, you are essentially paying for programming even though it is free sort of speak to the public.
    The other ball in play is the upcoming consolidation in the industry. The lines between service providers, content producers, and broadcasters are blurring. And all of these interconnected alliances are creating conflicts of interest everywhere.

    If the pending Comcast/NBCU merger goes through, then you'll see an avalanche of mergers in its wake and that will create a mess of major proportions with no benefit whatsoever to consumers. The telcos, satellite companies, broadcasters, cable providers, and online players are all pawns in a big chess game.

    The spat between TW and Fox is not unique. Just look at the still unresolved dispute between Directv and Versus (which is owned by cable provider Comcast, which also owns several cable channels and now wants to acquire NBC and its family of cable channels), or the earlier standoff between Dish Network and Viacom/CBS. These pissing matches have done nothing except blackout slates of channels and result in higher service rates.

    Directv's already getting prepped for a spinoff, and the likely buyer will be either AT&T or Verizon. And what's to stop another media conglomerate from also trying to acquire a service provider (like Dish Network for example)?

    Problem with all of the media mergers is that the businesses are no longer operated as standalone functionaries, but as cogs in a bigger entangled corporate machinery where every successive merger creates profits for the shareholders while saddling the business down with a higher debt load.
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  13. #13
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I don't understand what you mean. If CBS sells Tide a spot during David Letterman, that spot gets seen by CBS affiliates OTA as well as that same station on cable and satelite. Satelite still don't have the bandwidth to carry all local programming. It seems to me if you turn off OTA it would limit further the number of people capable of seeing the commercial. Also, it would seem to me less likely OTA commercials would be skipped by people using Tivo or DVR devices. OTA is a bit more involved to record, or at least not as convenient.
    You're not seeing the big picture. TV stations no longer generate a profit strictly through ad sales. They've all been overvalued and saddled down with millions in debt in the mergers and acquisitions orgy that transpired after the ownership rules got relaxed in the mid-90s.

    Right now, cable companies pay for the right to carry local station broadcasts. That's what keeps these stations afloat. If cable went away, the stations would go bankrupt. It's that simple. If OTA signals went away, viewers would flock to cable or satellite providers

    Conversely, the TV stations also know that cable depends on the inclusion of local broadcasts. Without local TV broadcasts, viewers would cancel their cable service in droves. This is the tension that's leading to these standoffs like the one between Time Warner Cable and Fox.

    Less than 20% of TV households get their programming via OTA antennas. Over 80% of TV households subscribe to either cable or satellite or fiber for their programming. The advent of digital TV multicasting has led to a slight resurgence of OTA usage, but it has not led to a notable decrease in the cable/satellite usage.
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    15 or 20% of the population is a big number to cut programming to and I wonder how many of that percent could afford cable/satelite if they wanted it or was left with that as an only alternative.

    This almost sounds like another housing melt down but for TV broadcasters. TV started with OTA it would be weird not to have it around and to fall back on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    During the occasional bad storm when satelite signal is lost I will use OTA. I still think if this comes to light where people wake up to what's happening it will never pass.
    First of all, during a bad storm, depending on where your OTA signal is coming from, you will have the same exact issue as Satellite. I have one major station that sucks in storms and several smaller stations that disappear when it drizzles.

    Second, it doesn't matter who wakes up because "The People" never have a real say in these decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    15 or 20% of the population is a big number to cut programming to and I wonder how many of that percent could afford cable/satelite if they wanted it or was left with that as an only alternative.
    The number of households that did not already have Digital TVs was at least that or more and guess what, nobody cared. They only really extended the deadline because the Gov F'ed up the amount of coupon cards they needed to have.

    I'm sure every politician already has cable or sat so they don't give a rats ass about those who don't. They will cram this through if only to make money from the taxes applied to your monthly contract.

    I still only use OTA but do not watch too many shows. Most of them I can watch over the internet the next day. Here is a website I just heard about yesterday on NPR which helps you find over the net alternatives for cable-sat.
    http://www.cancelyourcable.com/

    This is seriously screwed up if they do push this through in the near future after making millions of people buy converter boxes while knowing all along they would be useless in a year or two for those using OTA.

    I am also betting this will increase the pirating downloads of all TV shows that folks put up in torrents. I won't shell out $50 plus a month for a few TV shows until there are NO other alternatives.

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    I've never lost signal OTA during a storm. Sometimes depending on atmospheric conditions reception is better. With satelite or cable you just get a black screen, or maybe an error message.

  17. #17
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    ....

    Right now, cable companies pay for the right to carry local station broadcasts. That's what keeps these stations afloat. If cable went away, the stations would go bankrupt. It's that simple. If OTA signals went away, viewers would flock to cable or satellite providers

    ...
    That's interesting. Of course, you're talking State-side; here in Canada the CabSats don't pay for local stations. Up here the networks who provide local content want the CabSats to pay for local as they do for specialty channels. The CRTC regulator proposed that the Cabsats pay ~$10/mo. for local channels. The CabSats spent millions of dollars fighting this; they portrayed it as a "tax on consumers" rather that a charge to themselves. Of course it actually would behave like tax rather than a charge to the them since they would simply pass on the cost rather than absorb it, given there is no longer regulation or sufficient compedition to prevent that.

    I pay $80/mo. for my satilite service that includes a very limited amount beyond the mandated minimum. It's a huge gouge and I am very seriously thing of cancelling the whole damned thing once I'm retired in a couple of months. I have no provision for OTA at the moment but might have to look into it.

    BTW, the very same Canadian CabSats also are the main mobile 'phone providers and ISPs. Canadians pay more and get worse service for all these things than most developed countries. These corporate interest are extremely rich needless to say. Personally I'm extremely fed up and PO'd with the whole situation but of course there's effectively FA, (oh sorry, nothing personal, FA), that can done about it.

    Given consolidation trends, American should stand by to be screwed over by corporate interests just as badly as Canadians already are. Long live capitalists and their ball-crushing grip on our politicians and regulators.

  18. #18
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    15 or 20% of the population is a big number to cut programming to and I wonder how many of that percent could afford cable/satelite if they wanted it or was left with that as an only alternative.
    Nearly every cable system has some sort of "lifeline" service that replicates the OTA channel selection for less than $20/month (my parents pay $13/month for their service). People who don't subscribe to cable or satellite generally do so because they choose to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    I still only use OTA but do not watch too many shows. Most of them I can watch over the internet the next day. Here is a website I just heard about yesterday on NPR which helps you find over the net alternatives for cable-sat.
    http://www.cancelyourcable.com/
    That puts you way in the minority. Internet TV viewing gets a lot of hype and a lot of hits, but it doesn't sustain long-term viewership. The average viewer will watch TV for multiple hours a day, but online video viewership averages only a few minutes a day. The simple reality is that most people don't like watching TV on computers and don't have or want their TV networked.

    The OTA broadcast networks have been moving more towards live programming and unscripted programs because those show create instant demand and their shelf life has already expired by the next day when people talk about it over the water coolers. People who watch stuff like sports or reality TV or American Idol will not wait until the following day. Despite the advent of the internet and DVRs and VCRs and other time shifting devices, over 70% of TV viewing is still in real time. And it's that need for immediate gratification that will keep broadcasters viable at least for the near future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyfi
    This is seriously screwed up if they do push this through in the near future after making millions of people buy converter boxes while knowing all along they would be useless in a year or two for those using OTA.
    I doubt that OTA signals will be going anywhere for at least a decade, certainly not "in a year or two."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Nearly every cable system has some sort of "lifeline" service that replicates the OTA channel selection for less than $20/month (my parents pay $13/month for their service). People who don't subscribe to cable or satellite generally do so because they choose to.



    That puts you way in the minority. Internet TV viewing gets a lot of hype and a lot of hits, but it doesn't sustain long-term viewership. The average viewer will watch TV for multiple hours a day, but online video viewership averages only a few minutes a day. The simple reality is that most people don't like watching TV on computers and don't have or want their TV networked.

    The OTA broadcast networks have been moving more towards live programming and unscripted programs because those show create instant demand and their shelf life has already expired by the next day when people talk about it over the water coolers. People who watch stuff like sports or reality TV or American Idol will not wait until the following day. Despite the advent of the internet and DVRs and VCRs and other time shifting devices, over 70% of TV viewing is still in real time. And it's that need for immediate gratification that will keep broadcasters viable at least for the near future.



    I doubt that OTA signals will be going anywhere for at least a decade, certainly not "in a year or two."
    Points taken. My personal opinion is that people who hang on every episode of American Idol or any other so called reality show should look into getting a life of their own. Sports on the other hand is a different story due to betting and all the people who live in Fantasy Land.

  20. #20
    nightflier
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    Here's a question: if I pay for cable service, why should I have to sit through commercials? Maybe it's time someone did get fed up with this fact-of-cable too.

    Also, everyone is so gung ho about the downfall of advertising, but aren't we at the bottom of a recession? Sure things look bleak now, but as Warren Buffet says, the American economy always recovers. When the economy crawls back, so will advertising, and OTA. I'm no fan of advertising, but I can't deny that so much of our economy depends on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Here's a question: if I pay for cable service, why should I have to sit through commercials? Maybe it's time someone did get fed up with this fact-of-cable too.

    Also, everyone is so gung ho about the downfall of advertising, but aren't we at the bottom of a recession? Sure things look bleak now, but as Warren Buffet says, the American economy always recovers. When the economy crawls back, so will advertising, and OTA. I'm no fan of advertising, but I can't deny that so much of our economy depends on it.
    Go back and look at my 1st response. That was the big deal when cable first hit the scene. Then after they hooked everyone, there is now more commercials than on OTA in some cases. If you are paying for Content, you should not have to watch the Advertising, they should already be making enough money from the customers. But, thanks to corporate greed, they take your money and still advertise.

  22. #22
    Suspended Smokey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    The thing is, unless the local stations broadcast news 24/7, there isn't going to be much programming for them. Public stations may be the last man standing in this, as the networks are already making plans for this transition.
    What about local religion stations

    I have about 16 OTA channles which four of them carry religion programs. I am sure if all of local OTA stations disapear, those four channels will keep trucking forever. All they have to do is to say that Jesus want these local stations to broadcast forever (or plant a seed in their future), and watch money pouring in.

  23. #23
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Here's a question: if I pay for cable service, why should I have to sit through commercials? Maybe it's time someone did get fed up with this fact-of-cable too.
    They could remove commercials very easily, but then your cable bill will go through the roof. Those commercials are keeping your cable bill in the nose bleed territory and out of the wallet is exploding territory. Their programming costs have gone through the roof over the last decade, and they need commercials to offset the cost.

    Also, everyone is so gung ho about the downfall of advertising, but aren't we at the bottom of a recession? Sure things look bleak now, but as Warren Buffet says, the American economy always recovers. When the economy crawls back, so will advertising, and OTA. I'm no fan of advertising, but I can't deny that so much of our economy depends on it.
    Advertising has been moving away from broadcast for nearly a decade, but the last two years has seen a quick acceleration of that trend. It does not have anything to do with the recession because overall advertising spending has not decreased, it has just moved from one place to another. To make up for the loss, the networks are starting to ask for more money from the cable companies that carry their programming. Once the networks hit the wall with trying to offset the loss of advertising dollars by charging more, they will end up leaving broadcast for the web or cable entirely.
    Sir Terrence

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  24. #24
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey
    What about local religion stations

    I have about 16 OTA channles which four of them carry religion programs. I am sure if all of local OTA stations disapear, those four channels will keep trucking forever. All they have to do is to say that Jesus want these local stations to broadcast forever (or plant a seed in their future), and watch money pouring in.
    My comments are referring to the major networks, not smaller independent stations that produce their own programming. Religious stations usually rely on donations and offerings to support their station. The usually do not rely on commercials to keep the station broadcasting.
    Sir Terrence

    Titan Reference 3D 1080p projector
    200" SI Black Diamond II screen
    Oppo BDP-103D
    Datastat RS20I audio/video processor 12.4 audio setup
    9 Onkyo M-5099 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-510 power amp
    9 Onkyo M-508 power amp
    6 custom CAL amps for subs
    3 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid monitors
    18 custom 3 way horn DSP hybrid surround/ceiling speakers
    2 custom 15" sealed FFEC servo subs
    4 custom 15" H-PAS FFEC servo subs
    THX Style Baffle wall

  25. #25
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I've never lost signal OTA during a storm. Sometimes depending on atmospheric conditions reception is better. With satelite or cable you just get a black screen, or maybe an error message.

    The solution.....Uverse


    frenchmon
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