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  1. #51
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post

    ...I am with Smoke on this one.

    Well, I mean really Terrence...do you actually have to demand full range sound?
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  2. #52
    RGA
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    Exhibit A

    10 Watt amp 20hz to 20khz full output continuous at all frequencies

    Exhibit B

    Loudspeaker 100db Sensitive / ruler flat impedance of 8ohms (all frequencies)

    1watt - 100 db
    2w - 103db
    4w - 106db
    8 w - 109db
    16w - 112db (at 20hz or 400hz or 1khz or 19khz - makes no difference) Impedance is the ONLY thing that influence power demand at a given frequency - not because it's 20hz. Or 400hz or whatever Hz.

    And the simple way to check what I am saying is by considering different drivers sensitivities to get the achieved low frequencies. Smaller more rigid woofers tend to require more power (they are less sensitive) than larger lighter paper varieties which can move more air with less power.

    That is the theory and it is a fact.

    What is true in practice is the fact is bass drivers in loudspeakers are not flat impedance devices - so the nominal may be 8ohms but the bass frequencies may drop to 2 ohms - that requires 10 times the amplifier power. Most amps tube or SS have serious trouble truly doubling their output in such a manner - SET amps like Sugden actually halve their power - so the request for 10 times the power is a dual failure because the amp has 1/10 the power to meet the demand - so now we're talking a 100 times power deficiency to meet a bass demand if it is 2ohm. Yet that amp always wins the blind tests with experienced listeners and engineers from competing high powered manufacturers - so who knows.

    Anyway - a normal scenario is as follows:

    So the amp is humming along at 4 watts putting out 106 db (as in my example above) in level into the room and suddenly someone steps on the the low note of a pedal organ and the impedance is 2 ohms now the amplifier needs to deliver ten times the power - 40 watts and if the amp is only 10 watts then Houston we have a serious problem. The amp can't do it (well some amps often can since they have peak high power output capabilities over short duration) but it'll wheeze. This is when SETs and Tubes run into their "nice distortion" second harmonic behavior and get "fuzzy"

    The speaker is demanding a substantial amount of power from the speaker to hit a given frequency - but ONLY because the impedance dropped at said frequency. Incidentally some designs are just as bad in the treble - the treble frequencies in some designs drop drastically in impedance as well and those frequencies cause low powered amps fits as well.

    Also apart of the equation (and more important) is how fast the amplifier reacts to the changes in demand - one advantage of SET is their complete superiority in the time domain and they react fluidly in these situation - switching amps have to calclulate and lag behind - screws up all transient behavior - as does feedback which is 100% reactionary and is always catching up to the signal. So while some of them may be able to meet the demand better and provide a better sense of wollop their transient behavior is smeared and thus owners and reviewers like me ***** and complain that i have to keep turning the volume up because it doesn't sound very clear - something I always had to do with every SS amp I've owned and reviewed. It's also why owners of such systems love to play super loud and buy super powerful amps - they need ot play them super loud to make anything out and thus they in turn need super power amps (cause they have inefficient speakers

    But if you can design a 20hz-80hz subwoofer with 100db sensitivity and flat 8 ohm impedance then a 10 watt amp (capable over full bandwidth) will deliver said 20hz-80hz at said 109db into the room. And that is a fact.

    Of course no one bothers because they can spend $40 and put a class D 500 watt amplifier into a subwoofer and then they can use the most inefficient (ie; cheap) woofers they can and stuff into a MDF (ie; cheap) box. And they go boom-boom real good. So I'm not really complaining.

  3. #53
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Exhibit A

    10 Watt amp 20hz to 20khz full output continuous at all frequencies

    Exhibit B

    Loudspeaker 100db Sensitive / ruler flat impedance of 8ohms (all frequencies)

    1watt - 100 db
    2w - 103db
    4w - 106db
    8 w - 109db
    16w - 112db (at 20hz or 400hz or 1khz or 19khz - makes no difference) Impedance is the ONLY thing that influence power demand at a given frequency - not because it's 20hz. Or 400hz or whatever Hz.
    Richard, you start off with nonsense, and the rest of your post becomes nonsense.

    The output of amplifier going to speakers is not symmetrical, it is asymmetrical. More power is always gong to the drivers that reproduce the lowest frequencies than are going to the mid and treble region. Even with powered speakers(of which I work with every day) has more beefier amps going to the bass driver, than going to the tweeter or midrange. The system in my signature is tri-amped, with the most powerful amp going to the bass driver.

    So I want to see a speaker paired with a 16watt amp actually reproduce 112db at 20hz. No subwoofer can do it, and you don't even mention the size of the room. Do you really think a 16watt amp will be able to reproduce 112db in the room that my system in my signature sits in? I seriously doubt it.
    Sir Terrence

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  4. #54
    RGA
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    Sir T

    You ignore the theory - this is not difficult. You could IN THEORY design a speaker that is 110db sensitive and can output 20hz. You can then design an amplifier that puts out 10 watts at 20hz. Do the math.

    No one does this because - A - the cost would be ridiculous and B the size of the subwoofer would likely be the size of a Hummer.

    Big speakers almost always are easier to drive than small speakers - which is why the Joe Roberts of the world run massive speakers on small watts without sacrificing bass.

    Size, efficiency, sensitivity.

    Subwoofers are typically very small boxes putting out low bass at high levels - they sacrifice efficiency in order to achieve the results - but "IN THEORY" you could make the subwoofer 5 times larger with a much bigger woofer and have much more efficiency and sensitivity and then you could get the required bass with a lot less power to get them going.

    As I noted - in practice subwoofers tend to have CRAPPY efficiency which is why they need massive power - but it still comes down to impedance at the frequency

    The reason subs came to be popular was that receivers were lousy and could not output below 6 ohms - subs gave them fits.

    Edit - Not just subs actually but any speaker that dropped the impedance would blow the receiver.

    Another issue with bass - you mention volume at 112db most speakers do not have a response curve that is flat - typically bass frequencies of a speaker are 3-15db lower than their main band (midrange frequencies). Amps are not going to compensate for that. In my example speakers are rated usually at their 1khz band - so as an example

    The AN E is 98db sensitive 6 ohm rated loudspeaker running a 30 watt Jinro SET amp (in corners with 18db gain from that position). Martin Colloms (chair of the AES, founder of Monitor Audio, Stereophile measurements go to guy, top of the class at Oxford Engineering measured them at 18hz -6db in room response). "at reasonable drive levels"

    95db - 1watt
    98db - 2w
    101db - 4w
    104db - 8 w
    107 db -16w
    110db - 32w

    But the AN E's bass is still a full 6db lower than the main band. So there is no way - just looking at the math above that the speaker can produce 20hz at 108db - obviously (certainly not with that amp.

    That having been said the minimum impedance of the AN E is 3.6 ohms and the amplifier has a 4 ohm tap. Therefore the Jinro will put out it's rated output to 4 ohms. Ignoring the 27 or 30 watt rating and using 16 watts as the guide you WILL get plenty of level into its lower registers. But obviously you won't get the level that top of the line subwoofers put out. Indeed, the only way the AN E does it if they are put extremely hard into corners which nets them an 18db gain in bass. Otherwise their tuning frequency is 29hz and that's the best you can get (and it's still 3db lower than the main band).

    But there is no reason someone could not simply design a HE subwoofer with a massive woofer that could belt it out with a 10 watt amp. The fact that no one has or does it because the thing would be too big and too expensive and unsalable.

    It's still a function of the movement of air - big woofer pushes more air - lower frequencies. Small woofer has to move further to produce lower frequencies (hard to drive needs more power).
    Last edited by RGA; 03-13-2012 at 10:36 PM.

  5. #55
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    Sir T

    You ignore the theory - this is not difficult. You could IN THEORY design a speaker that is 110db sensitive and can output 20hz. You can then design an amplifier that puts out 10 watts at 20hz. Do the math.
    Math almost never plays out in the field using real equipment and real rooms as a reference.

    No one does this because - A - the cost would be ridiculous and B the size of the subwoofer would likely be the size of a Hummer.
    Hence why your example is very poor, there is no reference that supports it.

    Big speakers almost always are easier to drive than small speakers - which is why the Joe Roberts of the world run massive speakers on small watts without sacrificing bass.

    Size, efficiency, sensitivity.

    Subwoofers are typically very small boxes putting out low bass at high levels - they sacrifice efficiency in order to achieve the results - but "IN THEORY" you could make the subwoofer 5 times larger with a much bigger woofer and have much more efficiency and sensitivity and then you could get the required bass with a lot less power to get them going.
    Please show me a real world example of this so your theory has some actual support.

    As I noted - in practice subwoofers tend to have CRAPPY efficiency which is why they need massive power - but it still comes down to impedance at the frequency
    They have crappy efficiency because they handle frequencies that require a long throw high output driver to keep distortion down. Efficiency versus lower distortion and better transient response is the trade off. Everything has its trade off's.

    The reason subs came to be popular was that receivers were lousy and could not output below 6 ohms - subs gave them fits.

    Edit - Not just subs actually but any speaker that dropped the impedance would blow the receiver.

    Another issue with bass - you mention volume at 112db most speakers do not have a response curve that is flat - typically bass frequencies of a speaker are 3-15db lower than their main band (midrange frequencies). Amps are not going to compensate for that. In my example speakers are rated usually at their 1khz band - so as an example

    The AN E is 98db sensitive 6 ohm rated loudspeaker running a 30 watt Jinro SET amp (in corners with 18db gain from that position). Martin Colloms (chair of the AES, founder of Monitor Audio, Stereophile measurements go to guy, top of the class at Oxford Engineering measured them at 18hz -6db in room response). "at reasonable drive levels"

    95db - 1watt
    98db - 2w
    101db - 4w
    104db - 8 w
    107 db -16w
    110db - 32w

    But the AN E's bass is still a full 6db lower than the main band. So there is no way - just looking at the math above that the speaker can produce 20hz at 108db - obviously (certainly not with that amp.

    The lack of real detail in your responses show your are hedging just a bit. If we listened to sine waves, then you may have a point. However music sources are a cumulative media, which must take into consideration a amp that can handle a full bandwidth of signals in real time to be used as an example. There is no size of the room, and you made no specifics at just what exactly is a "reasonable" level. That is a individual floating target.

    That having been said the minimum impedance of the AN E is 3.6 ohms and the amplifier has a 4 ohm tap. Therefore the Jinro will put out it's rated output to 4 ohms. Ignoring the 27 or 30 watt rating and using 16 watts as the guide you WILL get plenty of level into its lower registers. But obviously you won't get the level that top of the line subwoofers put out. Indeed, the only way the AN E does it if they are put extremely hard into corners which nets them an 18db gain in bass. Otherwise their tuning frequency is 29hz and that's the best you can get (and it's still 3db lower than the main band).
    So you have effectively stated this speaker does not support your original assertions. Thanks!

    But there is no reason someone could not simply design a HE subwoofer with a massive woofer that could belt it out with a 10 watt amp. The fact that no one has or does it because the thing would be too big and too expensive and unsalable.

    It's still a function of the movement of air - big woofer pushes more air - lower frequencies. Small woofer has to move further to produce lower frequencies (hard to drive needs more power).
    In all of these words you have posted, you have offered nothing to support them. Just theory, and no actual example.

    That should tell you loads about your theory.
    Last edited by Sir Terrence the Terrible; 03-19-2012 at 02:13 PM.
    Sir Terrence

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  6. #56
    RGA
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    Well I am not sure exactly what you want.

    Martin Colloms' in room response of the AN E from the corner position confirmed that they were 18hz -6db. At what level? Well most of the British press measure loudspeakers at their sensitivity level which for that model was 94db (which would mean 18hz at 88db) - since 6db down from 94db is 88db. That's pretty reasonable I would say. The speaker maker's claim is that it will go to 108db uncompressed. THDistortion incidentally never rises above 0.6% and they measured it as 0.2% in the bass.

    But a better example of a speaker that will happily put out bass to 20hz with SET amps are those from Acapella - Fred Crowder runs Audio Note Kegon 20 watt amps on his Acapella Triolon Excalibur MKII speakers. scroll down Acapella speakers

    I never said that more watts would not play something louder - but to get it louder you need a DOUBLING of the watts for every 3db gain in level - whether that gain is at 20hz or 20khz.

    And those gains will ONLY occur once the lower power amp is at it's limit. So when my Amp is pushed to maximum - then and only then will a more powerful amp make itself known as being more powerful. But depending on the speaker's sensitivity (which doesn't take that much) I can make people ears physically hurt on my 92db speakers and 10 watts amplifier with very good bass below 30hz thank you very much.

    A big Sub would add bass and would add volume level - no argument from me. Unfortunately they always sound bad for music IME.

  7. #57
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    Well I am not sure exactly what you want.

    Martin Colloms' in room response of the AN E from the corner position confirmed that they were 18hz -6db. At what level? Well most of the British press measure loudspeakers at their sensitivity level which for that model was 94db (which would mean 18hz at 88db) - since 6db down from 94db is 88db. That's pretty reasonable I would say. The speaker maker's claim is that it will go to 108db uncompressed. THDistortion incidentally never rises above 0.6% and they measured it as 0.2% in the bass.
    Once again, no level indicated which makes these stats useless. 18hz at 88db is decent but not great performance. Maybe my bar is a bit higher, but my mains can play to 110db at 20hz, and 102db at 15hz with less than 5% distortion.

    But a better example of a speaker that will happily put out bass to 20hz with SET amps are those from Acapella - Fred Crowder runs Audio Note Kegon 20 watt amps on his Acapella Triolon Excalibur MKII speakers. scroll down Acapella speakers
    Only one of these speakers has output down to 20hz, and the one that does has absolutely no tolerance figures such as distortion, or what level it can actually play 20hz. This means it is useless as an example.

    I never said that more watts would not play something louder - but to get it louder you need a DOUBLING of the watts for every 3db gain in level - whether that gain is at 20hz or 20khz.
    Hence why more watts is better.

    And those gains will ONLY occur once the lower power amp is at it's limit. So when my Amp is pushed to maximum - then and only then will a more powerful amp make itself known as being more powerful. But depending on the speaker's sensitivity (which doesn't take that much) I can make people ears physically hurt on my 92db speakers and 10 watts amplifier with very good bass below 30hz thank you very much.
    We have had this discussion before, and you were proven wrong before. Bass below 30hz cannot hurt your ears. Bass that low is a pressure wave, not a acoustical wave. A pressure wave does not damage hearing, as it is only pressurizing the air. Once signals become an acoustical wave, then your ears are in danger. So no thank you very much, you are wrong when you say a speaker with a 92db sensitivity can hurt your ears with only ten watts. That is pure nonsense.

    A big Sub would add bass and would add volume level - no argument from me. Unfortunately they always sound bad for music IME.
    You don't need a big sub anymore to get big loud bass. The H-PAS system can achieve truly remarkable low distortion high level bass from a medium size cabinet. My H-PAS sub can produce 20hz at 121db with a 30x17x17 cabinet and a 500 watt amp with less than 5% distortion.
    Sir Terrence

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  8. #58
    RGA
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    No you are 100% wrong there buddy.

    Sit in my chair in my house and I will play the AN J with my 10 watt amp at full output and you are saying this will not damage your ears. Why are you talking about bass - read what I said - I didn't mention bass at 92db I mentioned the speaker (all frequencies) and that was the sensitivity rating not the in room sound. I'll be happy to crank it - The speaker easily puts out 105db into the room. Play 100hz - 3khz at 105db for 10 straight hours and tell me it's not bad for your ears.

    The measurement I provided was where the magazine measures them. Audio Note claims the speaker puts out 108db before it starts to compress. Ie 108db before audible distortion.

    Assuming that is a reasonable figure (my Wharfedales put out 119db in a not that much bigger cabinet or woofer) then if Audio Note's 108db is main band then 6db down then the speaker is capable of is 102db at 18hz in corners. Which is suddenly a lot more respectable I would say. If they are using the 108db before compression distortion in the bass then the main band will comfortably play to 114db (at 0.2% distortion in the bass is a lot better than 5%)

    The problem is you don't seem to understand any concept related to speaker sensitivity/efficiency.

    It is not JUST about the amplifier and I'm sorry if you don't understand what speaker sensitivity is all about.

    To get two times the "perceived" volume level (to subjectively be deemed "twice as loud" you need a gain of 10decibels. It doesn't matter how you do it either through watts from the amplifier or sensitivity of the speaker.

    If speaker A is 90db sensitive and 20hz - 20khz and speaker B is 80db at 20hz -20khz all else being equal speaker A is TWICE as loud as speaker B on the same 1 watt of power - twice as loud at 20hz and twice as loud at 1khz.

    To do it via an amplifier if you have a 100watt amplifier you need 200 watts for a 3db gain (which is barely audible). A 400 watt amp is a 6db gain. An 800 watt amp gives you a 9db gain. A 1600 watt amp gives you a 12db gain over a 100watt amplifier. Irrespective of frequency.

    If I run a 100db sensitive speaker with a 100 watt amp and Fred buys an 80db speaker and has a 1600 watt amplifier - my stereo, including all bass frequencies, will play a LOT louder than his by 8db. And that's assuming his speaker has a sticker on the back that says "Power handling 1600 watts" If the power handling is the usual 250 watts then my system will utterly destroy Fred's.

    I love the folks in the my bass is better than your bass threads. May as well be talking to car audio people. I didn't buy Audio Note because of the bass - there are plenty of speakers with more bass - umm I didn't even buy the biggest bass model they make which should point out that bass is not my only consideration. I am not using it for home theater and I don't listen to organ music.

    That said the AN J/Spe in blind level matched sessions in Hi-Fi Choice clobbered all other standmounts that magazine has tested (including PMC, Genewlec, ATC, and all the mainstream brands.) Clobbered them so much they pulled the speaker out of the test and put them in the test for full range floorstanding speakers instead. Incidentally they have no corners so that was without corner gain.

    Then the AN J won the blind test and noted as having "prodigious bass" against the floorstanders. No it can't compete with really big speakers or big subwoofers. There are limits. But sound quality is the goal not just thump thump bass for Terminators exploding from laser fire. If I wanted that I would have bought ATC and Bryston. Listening to music on it I'd want to stick a fork in my eye.


    A really cheap speaker that will do very good output at 30hz with 97db sensitivity in the bass is the CV 215 SoundStage! Equipment Review - Cerwin-Vega CLS-215 Loudpeakers (12/2007)
    Last edited by RGA; 03-21-2012 at 01:00 AM.

  9. #59
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    No you are 100% wrong there buddy.

    Sit in my chair in my house and I will play the AN J with my 10 watt amp at full output and you are saying this will not damage your ears. Why are you talking about bass - read what I said - I didn't mention bass at 92db I mentioned the speaker (all frequencies) and that was the sensitivity rating not the in room sound. I'll be happy to crank it - The speaker easily puts out 105db into the room. Play 100hz - 3khz at 105db for 10 straight hours and tell me it's not bad for your ears.
    Once again, you are using as a example something that NEVER happens in real life. Nobody listen's to anything at a constant level. The levels of any source change dynamically from moment to moment.

    Secondly, you are talking about midbass to the critical band, and when I speak about loud bass's effect on their ears, I am talking about BASS frequencies, not midbass and up. You know, 20-80hz.

    Thirdly just saying a speaker puts out 105db means absolutely nothing if you do not cover the bandwidth that volume covers. I would imagine your AN J cannot play 105db at anything below 40 or 50hz. Below that both your speakers and your amp would run out of gas.

    The measurement I provided was where the magazine measures them. Audio Note claims the speaker puts out 108db before it starts to compress. Ie 108db before audible distortion.
    108db from 100-20khz, 50-20khz, 20-20khz...what?

    Assuming that is a reasonable figure (my Wharfedales put out 119db in a not that much bigger cabinet or woofer) then if Audio Note's 108db is main band then 6db down then the speaker is capable of is 102db at 18hz in corners. Which is suddenly a lot more respectable I would say. If they are using the 108db before compression distortion in the bass then the main band will comfortably play to 114db (at 0.2% distortion in the bass is a lot better than 5%)
    Sorry, but I don't believe this AT ALL. Please provide the measurements that support this.

    The problem is you don't seem to understand any concept related to speaker sensitivity/efficiency.

    It is not JUST about the amplifier and I'm sorry if you don't understand what speaker sensitivity is all about.
    I understand it alright, but I also know that a speaker does not remain the same sensitivity at all frequencies.

    To get two times the "perceived" volume level (to subjectively be deemed "twice as loud" you need a gain of 10decibels. It doesn't matter how you do it either through watts from the amplifier or sensitivity of the speaker.

    If speaker A is 90db sensitive and 20hz - 20khz and speaker B is 80db at 20hz -20khz all else being equal speaker A is TWICE as loud as speaker B on the same 1 watt of power - twice as loud at 20hz and twice as loud at 1khz.

    To do it via an amplifier if you have a 100watt amplifier you need 200 watts for a 3db gain (which is barely audible). A 400 watt amp is a 6db gain. An 800 watt amp gives you a 9db gain. A 1600 watt amp gives you a 12db gain over a 100watt amplifier. Irrespective of frequency.

    If I run a 100db sensitive speaker with a 100 watt amp and Fred buys an 80db speaker and has a 1600 watt amplifier - my stereo, including all bass frequencies, will play a LOT louder than his by 8db. And that's assuming his speaker has a sticker on the back that says "Power handling 1600 watts" If the power handling is the usual 250 watts then my system will utterly destroy Fred's.
    Once again you are wasting three hundred million words to outline something you cannot substantiate with facts. Another point you seemed to be missing is no amp/speaker combination has sensitivities that remain constant over their entire bandwidth, unless it states it does.

    I love the folks in the my bass is better than your bass threads. May as well be talking to car audio people. I didn't buy Audio Note because of the bass - there are plenty of speakers with more bass - umm I didn't even buy the biggest bass model they make which should point out that bass is not my only consideration. I am not using it for home theater and I don't listen to organ music.
    Then your example still fails, because there are people out there that use their system to listen to organ music, and for hometheater. Your little small bubble does not apply to the masses, and that is something you need to get straight in your head

    That said the AN J/Spe in blind level matched sessions in Hi-Fi Choice clobbered all other standmounts that magazine has tested (including PMC, Genewlec, ATC, and all the mainstream brands.) Clobbered them so much they pulled the speaker out of the test and put them in the test for full range floorstanding speakers instead. Incidentally they have no corners so that was without corner gain.
    That was with their reviewers ears, their room, and their front end. Results would be different in a different room, with a different set of ears, and different front end.

    Then the AN J won the blind test and noted as having "prodigious bass" against the floorstanders. No it can't compete with really big speakers or big subwoofers. There are limits. But sound quality is the goal not just thump thump bass for Terminators exploding from laser fire. If I wanted that I would have bought ATC and Bryston. Listening to music on it I'd want to stick a fork in my eye.
    I actually would prefer you chop your hands off, so we don't have to read anymore of your unsubstantiated nonsense over and over again. Have you even heard the Bryston 28B? Probably not. Have you ever heard the ATC SCM-300A? Probably not, so you claims on both brands are only based on single models, and not the whole line of speakers or amps. Limited exposure=limited actual experience.


    A really cheap speaker that will do very good output at 30hz with 97db sensitivity in the bass is the CV 215 SoundStage! Equipment Review - Cerwin-Vega CLS-215 Loudpeakers (12/2007)
    I have heard that speakers little brother and was impressed for the money.
    Sir Terrence

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  10. #60
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    Ohhh...... I mised this speaker fight...

    OK- sensitivity is important, but whether a speaker is a point source (SPL drops with distance squared) or a planar source (SPL constant with distance) is also important. Maybe more so. See Olsens' Theoretical Accoustics, I forget the page numbers.

    I learned this with my Magneplanar Tympani many years ago (c1985). I had several friends over and the Futtermnan-driven Maggies were not at all loud.... until I tried to talk to the man sitting next to me. My efforts totally failed. The Maggies totally dominated the room and they were not very loud. Years later I learned that they could effortlessy control a room 26' x 32' x 20' high.

  11. #61
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I swapped my KRELL KRS 200 Monoblocks with 310 Watts (8ohm) <-- Personally measured for 60 Watt SET amps on a high inefficient full range ribbon speaker. Not only does it sound much better it also plays louder because it does not compress the crap out of the signal and feedback it to death :-)
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  12. #62
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    I swapped my KRELL KRS 200 Monoblocks with 310 Watts (8ohm) <-- Personally measured for 60 Watt SET amps on a high inefficient full range ribbon speaker. Not only does it sound much better it also plays louder because it does not compress the crap out of the signal and feedback it to death :-)
    So are you saying an amp like the Bryston 28B SST compresses the crap out of the signal and feedbacks it to death?

    Florian, I don't think so.....
    Sir Terrence

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  13. #63
    3LB
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    not if you live in L.A.
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  14. #64
    RGA
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    I no longer buy SS amps but I do review them and I do use them.

    My last SS amp that I owned and liked was the Sugden A48b 70 ish watt SS. The interesting thing about this amp was that it had bass. I auditioned it directly against a musical Fidelity A 300 150 watt SS amp and a Bryston pre/prop combo using the Bryston 3BSST.

    The Sugden had FAR deeper bass response. I don't know why this would be the case - Speakers were full range Paradigm Studio 100V2 multi-way speakers.

    The other amps sounded "airy" and hi-fi but was utterly pathetic with real bass in the gut. I have had the 3BST in my home for a period of time and again thin and breezy but the bass sucked. UHF magazine reviewed a 3B and complained about the bass performance of the amplifier as well - they measured it and had three reviewers listen to it - all three disliked the bass performance of that amplifier.

    The Sugden is simply a lot better. Why? I can't say - the only thing that cropped up in a review about said amplifier was that the reviewer noted that the amplifier was not "frequency limited" which implies that perhaps other amplifiers ARE limited and that may be in order to prop up the watt ratings. The Sugden will drive 4hz while other SS amps may limit at 40hz or only meet ratings at certain frequencies and may only output 1watt at 20hz while the Sugden is 70 at all frequencies.

    But my OTO on my speakers has much deeper bass than a 3b or 4b and the OTO is only 10 watts. Feedback may account for a lot of things but something else must account for this. I have a Rotel power amp here as well and it has a damping factor of 500 and it too has lighter weight bass. Obviously this applies only to the amp operating at sane volume levels but it's certainly interesting that at low medium levels there would be such a difference in bass fullness.

    I think all manufacturers need to post "pre-feedback" distortion numbers to give a true sense of what the amplifier actually outputs before the feedback corrects the graph but doesn't actually fix the problem..

  15. #65
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    So are you saying an amp like the Bryston 28B SST compresses the crap out of the signal and feedbacks it to death?

    Florian, I don't think so.....
    Hello SirT,

    i only stated it for my KRELL KRS 200 Monoblocks. Feel free to try the Bryston. In my personal experience, amplifiers that use feedback do not sound as good to my ears as amplifiers which do not use feedback at all.

    Cheers
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  16. #66
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Hello SirT,

    i only stated it for my KRELL KRS 200 Monoblocks. Feel free to try the Bryston. In my personal experience, amplifiers that use feedback do not sound as good to my ears as amplifiers which do not use feedback at all.

    Cheers
    I have auditioned the 28B-SST2, and purchased seven of them for my studio. It does not compress the signal or use feedback. One of the biggest thumbs up stereophile gave this amp is for its huge dynamic capabilities.
    Sir Terrence

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  17. #67
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    The "Birther Controversy" comes to mind when see people frantically searching to justify their preferences. To wit, some people hate President Barack Obama, and some of them, like Donald Trump and Joe Arpaio, go to absurd lengths to attempt to prove that Obama is ineligible to be President.

    Kudos to Arpaio for not being quitter. His first effort to prove that the published birth certificate was digital pastiche were debunked, but now he back on a different tack try to say that the certificate was modified after original completion, based on supposed recollections of a 95 year old former records clerk, (see HERE).
    Last edited by Feanor; 07-19-2012 at 04:52 AM.

  18. #68
    RGA
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    Funny but I don't like tube buffers or adding tube preamps to SS because it makes the sound better - it might but just as often it might not.

    Also I BOUGHT a Rotel RC 1082 SS preamp over several tube preamps including an acclaimed ARC.

    You found a guy that supports your claim so automatically you put 100% FAITH into what he has to say because of your BIAS that you held because of what you buy. So that is the evidence you look for.

    People go round around in circles - There are simple facts associated with this - what sounds better. A or B.

    The term better I define as "more like the real thing" When I listen to a piano live 10 feet away - which system - System A or System B can make a piano sound like it sounded like live - and that applies to EVERY instrument including ALL vocals.

    Does system A make ALL of those instruments and ALL of those voices sound like the sound like when you hear them in real life.

    I could give a rat's ass which design does it better - SS, SET, Tubes, Digital, turntables, CD, computers.

    What half wits on forums keep arguing is technology but the FACT is a turntable does it better than CD - not always - WHY? the recording. Even the half wits might acknowledge the fact that if a record was recorded by the best in the business and they recorded it better than they've recorded anything in their career and you play it back on a top shelf turntable versus a ****tily transferred CD played back on a medicore machine that gee the record sounds a million times better - then if you want it to sound good you need the damn LP. It's that simple.

    And I've always said it goes the other way too. Fact is there are better CD - remastered and fixed while the LP has no such fix then the CD will be better.

    For amplifiers - which sounds better or more like the "real thing": and (therefore) which is more accurate to "real life" now becomes a human interface issue.

    The only way I can figure that anyone on any forum can be satisfied with results is to do what I have suggested for a long time.

    An independent double blind level matched preference based listening sessions with professionally trained jazz and classical musicians/composers. I choose them mainly because they play and listen to actual music instruments where pop is often filtered and processed and not all of them actually play or listen to real instruments (or not many of them - bass guitar, drums, electric guitar, electronic keyboard is limited).

    Now if these people can't tell if system A makes a piano sound more like a piano than system B - then I don't know who else can or will. If 30 people go in and listen for many hours and they 29-1 choose any sort of tube/SET based system over SS or ICE then what would you say? That the musicians don't know what instruments sound like? The very instrument they play every day since they were 5?

    I am perfectly willing to accept that my ear could be gravitating to a more pleasing sound.

    The only trouble I have with this notion is that it would not likely make ever kind of music, all instruments, all voices sound pleasing. It would have to present a distortion that is always present.

    When I first heard the Meishu for example it was up against the 3B. The Meishu had deeper bass, clearer midrange and I could hear more of the hall it was recorded it - the treble was just as extended but less hash - in other words it was CLEARER and had less audible "noise" despite the fact that Bryston is known for low noise floor it sounded worse in the noise department - all albums used. The Meishu could be played at lower level in terms of measured SPL while the Bryston needed to be cranked to gain a level of clarity. Everyone in the room had the same experience.

    So here is my proposal.

    Room A has a Bryston 3B - SST2 which measures about as good as it gets and is a pro amp - used with a Harman International Approved 2 way box (Revel). And Bryston's CD players.

    Room B - Audio Note level 2 with AN J speakers.

    Bring in the musicians and see where the chips fall.


    The stereo will be blacked out via black light - no one sees the stereo in the room.

    Both rooms play a CD with 20 cuts. They play at the same time and both rooms play at the exact same volume level. Each listener gets a card and they drop the card in the box of the room they feel recreates instruments and voices correctly. It is worded this way as opposed to "which room do you like best" - it is worded "which room recreates instruments and voices correctly."

    It doesn't really matter which system is in room A and B. I would try to isolate extreme technologies first to see which technology is generally preferred. I like the idea of using an AN system simply because it is a "compounding" system of obsolete tech.

    So AN E in corners with an M9 and Gaku-Ons and Fifth Element DAC is a technology of wrongs in that it is SET and zero times oversampling DA converter. Money doesn't matter because it's blind. And the AN E has enough detractors as loudspeaker design that it is easily off the beaten path versus a Revel which is the best brand line that Harman International makes and has white papers out the wazoo.

    I think most of the measurements folks should be satisfied by Revel speakers as being on of the pinnacle boxed loudspeaker designs.

    Then for front end - SS high negative feedback that is deemed to be as good as SS gets. A Bryston Pre/Pro using the 28BSST2 - or some big top of the line Krell. And matched CD player.

    To me you start with this as a test. Room A has the laughably bad system according to the measurements and room B has about as good as it gets. You have the right listeners - not deaf rocker musicians but highly tuned trained exceptional ears playing instruments exceptionally well requires them to "know" what it is supposed to sound like.

    Then you run the session and let the chips fall. If it's a 50-50ish split you're no worse off than before.

    If the AN system gets thumped which is what SHOULD happen then I am surprised but will concede that I clearly got duped by fuzzy sound. And the numerous classically trained musicians/reviewers composers who buy their systems also got duped.

    If the AN system wins by a landslide then the industry needs to go back to a drawing board on some things and admit Peter and Andy and Kondo were right.
    Last edited by RGA; 07-18-2012 at 06:51 PM.

  19. #69
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Hi Feanor,

    Zero feedback proponents such as RGA, Morricab and now, sadly, Florian, latch onto these the notion because they like the sound but aren't satisfied to acknowledge that it's a matter of preference.
    i would really like you to take the highligted passage back. In all cases i stated that i and my friends prefer these types of designs over others. I have not read any audio papers nor do i read magazines. And certainly there is no propaganda from my side. I have been fortunate to be able to purchase both extremes of each side of technology. Sharing my personal listening experience is all i do.

    Happy listening
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  20. #70
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Hi RGA,

    we should also add the late Mr. Allen Wreight from Vacuumstate Electronics, Ken Stevents from CAT and also the folks from NAT Audio and many others. It is not like we have a huge amount of high feedback solid state companies agains a few no feedback and single ended designs. The selection is huge!
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  21. #71
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Hi Feanor,
    i would really like you to take the highligted passage back. In all cases i stated that i and my friends prefer these types of designs over others. I have not read any audio papers nor do i read magazines. And certainly there is no propaganda from my side. I have been fortunate to be able to purchase both extremes of each side of technology. Sharing my personal listening experience is all i do.

    Happy listening
    Florian, I respect that you acknowledge that preference determines your choices. In hi-fi nobody can argue with preference. And you have indeed been "lucky" (or whatever word applies), to hear the very best.

    But there has been plenty of propaganda from "your side" -- by which I mean people like Morricab. Brad has made very intelligent efforts to correlate his preferences with amplifier design parameters and testing measurements. See his findings HERE. I have congratulated him on his efforts. However he and others who agree have gone further than preference to insist that their preference is actually the real accuracy, invoking the theories of Daniel Cheever, HERE, and Boyt & Sussmann, HERE, to justify their preferences. Again, Rod Elliott addresses these theories in his discussion of distortion,
    HERE, that I alluded to earlier.

  22. #72
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    ...

    So here is my proposal.

    Room A has a Bryston 3B - SST2 which measures about as good as it gets and is a pro amp - used with a Harman International Approved 2 way box (Revel). And Bryston's CD players.

    Room B - Audio Note level 2 with AN J speakers.

    Bring in the musicians and see where the chips fall.

    The stereo will be blacked out via black light - no one sees the stereo in the room.

    Both rooms play a CD with 20 cuts. They play at the same time and both rooms play at the exact same volume level. Each listener gets a card and they drop the card in the box of the room they feel recreates instruments and voices correctly. It is worded this way as opposed to "which room do you like best" - it is worded "which room recreates instruments and voices correctly.".
    Bring it on. I'd be happy to participate or observe.

    It wouldn't surprise me at all if the musicians selected that AN room, but then it is still a matter of preference, not accuracy.

    Reference to "live sound" is dubious, relying as it does on people's recollection of many live performances in different venues. Such recollections are naturally tend to be romanticized -- a combination of poor memory and good imagination.

    A better test (of amplifiers) would be to play good recordings through a good amplifier (doesn't matter what kind) to good speakers, say high-quality studio monitors. Then pull the original amp and replace with the test amps. All this under blind conditions. The winner would be the test amp that delivers the sound most like the original amp. {EDIT} Sorry, the original amp must stay in the circuit somehow, otherwise the test amp that sounds most like the original will be the one that sounds most like the original. Dah! But the principle remains that the valid test of accuracy is the amp that modifies the signal the least. {/EDIT}
    Last edited by Feanor; 07-19-2012 at 07:11 AM.

  23. #73
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    How would you now if the "original" amp would be accurate and capable to be true to the original source? RGAs suggestion is very good indeed in my opinion. What sounds like live music? Get a bunch of musicians in a room and play them the systems.

    By the way, thanks for your informative post. Personally i trust in my friends PHD as a Scientist to observe and analyze. I just listen :-)
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  24. #74
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    How would you now if the "original" amp would be accurate and capable to be true to the original source? RGAs suggestion is very good indeed in my opinion. What sounds like live music? Get a bunch of musicians in a room and play them the systems.

    By the way, thanks for your informative post. Personally i trust in my friends PHD as a Scientist to observe and analyze. I just listen :-)
    See my correction to my proposed test. (As revised) it isn't all that critical that the "original" amp be a great; the real test is how much or little the test amps modify the sound from the original.

    Live sound is usally great but not always, depending on the venue, your seat in it, the performance, etc. Our recollection of live is at best sort of average of what we have heard, more likely it is an idealized version of this "average".

    I have read Morricab's post over a number of years and I have respect for them because of his experience and well-considered observations. But his Phd doesn't ensure he is free from bias. I remain suspicious that amps that have more distortion are less accurate -- you can't just wish away distortion because it sounds pretty. That's seeing the world through rose-colored glasses, or as the French would say, La vie en rose.

  25. #75
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Well, it depends if the measurements basis is actually in relevance to accurate sound.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

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