Is More watts better?

[pitbosskev]

Can someone give light on my question? I have a Harman Kardon avr-230 which I believe is rated at 50 or 55 watts in stereo. I am looking to buy a used Citation 22 power amp rated at 200 watts (I think). Will this make a significant differnce in sound and what kind of differences will it make? Is it worth the extra money? I have Paradigm monitor 9's as fronts.

Thanks.

[RGA]

No more watts is not better. More watts can be louder. If you have a 50 watt amplifier and all else being equal, an amp rated at 100 watts will be 3 decibals louder. 3db is barely audible.

To get twice as loud, to the ear, of a 50 watt amp you would need a 500 watt amp. And this would only happen if the speaker was capable of taking 500 watts. Most speakers can only take 50 - 200 watts.

In my experience low powered amps sound the best. The longest running amplifier in history is the Sugden A21a which is a Single Ended (SE) solid state amplifier rated at 25 watts per channel pure class A into 8 ohms -- and is not high current. It's one of the best sounding amplifiers for sane money going - which is why it's been selling since 1968.

I have yet to hear an amplifier above 100 watts that I would want to own.

[Smokey]

Is More watts better?

Short answer to that question is yes.

Alot of people associate more wattage with being louder which is not the case alt all. More
wattage usually mean better Dynamic Headroom and lower distortion. Loud momentary music passages (such as beating of drum) can reach as high as 200-300 watts. And if amp doesn’t have that much power in reserve (Dynamic Headroom), then result would be higher distortion (THD to be more specific) and lower quality sound.

So higher power is always welcome.

[Florian]

Short answer to that question is yes.

Alot of people associate more wattage with being louder which is not the case alt all. More
wattage usually mean better Dynamic Headroom and lower distortion. Loud momentary music passages (such as beating of drum) can reach as high as 200-300 watts. And if amp doesn’t have that much power in reserve (Dynamic Headroom), then result would be higher distortion (THD to be more specific) and lower quality sound.

So higher power is always welcome.

I know of very little normal speakers can produce the whole dynamic range in the first place, but i would also add that you need control, lots of current, a purely stable amp and a high damping factor.

-Flo

PS: RGA, i can hear .5db differences and 3db is a lot. Espc. when a box sits in the corners and gets different room gain from the corners.

[kexodusc]

PS: RGA, i can hear .5db differences and 3db is a lot. Espc. when a box sits in the corners and gets different room gain from the corners.

You are a freakin' cyborg Flo.
Most of us normal humans can only barely hear 1 dB changes with statistical significance. The average healthy ear doesn't even do much better with 3 dB differences.

Funny story - I can notice a +1 dB increase in my room with concentration when I increase the volume. In my last hearing test I could only accurately identify +3 dB increases that the technician controlled better than 90% of the time. 2 dB I was 50/50, and was honestly guessing. That 3 dB is the standard used for hearing. If you can do that, you have an average healthy ear.

I don't find +3 dB in my room to be much of a difference really, noticeable, but I think that's the minimum increment I would change volume by if someone asked me to turn it up or down.

[RGA]

Short answer to that question is yes.

Alot of people associate more wattage with being louder which is not the case alt all. More
wattage usually mean better Dynamic Headroom and lower distortion. Loud momentary music passages (such as beating of drum) can reach as high as 200-300 watts. And if amp doesn’t have that much power in reserve (Dynamic Headroom), then result would be higher distortion (THD to be more specific) and lower quality sound.

So higher power is always welcome.

Sorry but this is incorrect - at least partially. What I left out is the function of the speaker. If you own 80db senstive speakers then I would agree that you would need very high wattage amplifiers to get them going. However, there is no need to buy such speakers since you can get easy to drive speakers.

High watt amps and separates also tend to generate noise not lessen it. This has always been an advantage of integrated amps over separates or pseudo hybrids like my amp. Drum beats do not hit 200-300 watts or a watt number. Most all "good" amps have significant reserves to reach loud peaks. The only advantage to high watt amps is volume capability. It takes 10 times the power to get a perceived doubling of the volume to the human ear. Thus a 100 watt amplifier will make a speaker that can handle 100 watts twice as loud as a 10 watt amp. On the other hand if you run a 100 watt amp on an 83db sensitive speaker and I run a 10 watt amp on a 95db senstive speaker (all else being equal) then my system will play louder than yours and have more headroom than yours.

High watt amps tend to require more aliasing or fixing of the signal in order for the amplifier to work properly - high power high damping factor = high negative feedback. It typically makes the graph look prettier but hardly does anything good for the sound. UHF technical advisor Paul Bergman wrote about damping factor in UHF's "The World of High Fidelity" and suggested that amps with damping factors above 40 are 'generally' best avoided. In the end it comes down to experience - I have heard more systems that have huge power power amplifiers such as Krell, YBA, Classe,Bryston etc monoblocks with speakers of not the greatest efficiency such as those from ML, HALES, Gershman Acoustics, Legacy, Wilson, PMC, etc. I have heard fewer systems of high efficiency and low powered Class A amplifiers. These carefully matched systems all have seemed to have more dynamic headroom (less compression) and some can play at significantly higher levels. It has been said that while this is true such speakers are often much bigger and offer less bass repsonse -- but that can be shown to be untrue!

The advantage of some of these speakers of course is that you the customer get far more choice -- you can use an 8 watt amp or an 80 watt amp or an 800 watt amp. And if volume level matters look for a speaker that is high efficient, and can handle a lot of watts. And such speakers also are more able to let you the customer hear the difference in sound quality of the amplifiers at good drive levels. a low watt amp will fizzle out on tough speakers but on easy to drive speakers you can compare a Krell and a SET and and neither will be running out of steam -- then you can hear what the actual amplifiers sound like.

By the way I had loads of fun with PMC and Bryston like set-ups as well - excellent build, powerful sound - but don't give up on the "polar opposite" kind of set-ups. A fellow in town here has gone to 98db sensitive speakers and 8 watt amps from having owned massive SS gear and gigantic speakers designed by Mark Levinson with subwoofers . His system will play more than loud enough for most people. The big Bryston PMC ultimately will play a bit louder but the sacrifice in subtleties and the introduction of fatigue is not a trade that I would make.

[Florian]

However, there is no need to buy such speakers since you can get easy to drive speakers.

So what do i do when efficent speakers like the AN's make me throw up and curl up in the corner? What you write is complete bogus! My friend has the AN's Conquest and the Kondo in for review and both generate tons of noise and hiss. Yes, they sound good but have no balls (except the Kondo..of course) and you cant drive any of the top speakers with them.

There are amps out there that easily compare and have tons of power to play with also, the Silver King, Sphinx PJ16, Acousticplan and Silvaweld OTL's.

then you can hear what the actual amplifiers sound like.

Not if you have driver coloration, time delay erros, room coloration etc. Some amps need to be driven hot and the Krell KRS wont do **** on a 12Ohm impedance.

Like i said.....advertising bogus!

-Flo

[PAT.P]

So whats the answer guys?Most of my HT speakers are 91db to 94db In average room 2.83 V,1m. Im going to add a power amp to drive my fronts from pre-out of receiver.Im using A/Bspeakers at same time .The amp is 300 watts at 4ohms both channel driven.How loud do you think its going to be

[Florian]

It will never be anywhere close to 300watts and we dont know the damping factor or the impedance responce of your speakers ;-)

Bottom line: Try it out and see if you like it, if you dont then junk it and buy a different one and if you like it.....well thats simple!

-Flo

[RGA]

So whats the answer guys?Most of my HT speakers are 91db to 94db In average room 2.83 V,1m. Im going to add a power amp to drive my fronts from pre-out of receiver.Im using A/Bspeakers at same time .The amp is 300 watts at 4ohms both channel driven.How loud do you think its going to be

When i added a Bryston 120 watt power amp to my 95 db sensitive top of the line Wharfedales everything improved - tighter bass punchy sound cleaner and tighter and less sluggish. This was actually a 5 watt downgrade because I had the top of the line Pioneer Elite Receiver rated at 125 watts RMS and distortion figures that rivalled the Bryston.

It's not about the watts and it's not strictly about the sensitivity rating. Plenty of speakers at 93db sensitivity and are not the least bit friendly to low powered amps. SET amps like stable loads - nothing wrong with a 4 ohm load if it doesn't dip and rise too much. My speakers are rated as 6 ohms but never dip under 5. If I remember correctly the 2.83V, 1m spec needs to be subtracted by 3db to be the same as the 1 watt 1 meter spec (not 100% sure so check on that). Remember for every 3db gain you need twice the amplifier power.

Florian - I'd be curious as to the Serial numbers of both the Kondo and the Conquests. The Conquests and Kageki amplifiers as well as all of the other AN amps that I have heard and the one I own and everyone else I know who has ever heard any of them hear absolutely no noise with any of these amplifiers - there may be a faulty connection and your friend should definitely have a repair outlet fix the issue.

[Smokey]

Sorry but this is incorrect - at least partially. What I left out is the function of the speaker. If you own 80db senstive speakers then I would agree that you would need very high wattage amplifiers to get them going.

I agree that speaker sensitivity does matter as to how much power needed, but it should not be the main factor. Today's high dynamic sources such as CD, DVD, DVD-A or HD audio require for the amp to have plenty of reserve power to accurately amplify the signal regardless of speaker used. And I don't believe 8 or 10 watt amp will cut it even if high sensitivity speakers are used.

High watt amps and separates also tend to generate noise not lessen it. This has always been an advantage of integrated amps over separates or pseudo hybrids like my amp.

How did you come to that conclusion?

High quality amps and separate tend to keep channels (and their power supply) separated to avoid interchannel noise and distortion. And they use better shielding and methods to keep RF/EMI noise from effecting the components. So IMO amps are better equipped to combat noise than hybrid/integrated amps

[RGA]

I agree that speaker sensitivity does matter as to how much power needed, but it should not be the main factor. Today's high dynamic sources such as CD, DVD, DVD-A or HD audio require for the amp to have plenty of reserve power to accurately amplify the signal regardless of speaker used. And I don't believe 8 or 10 watt amp will cut it even if high sensitivity speakers are used.



How did you come to that conclusion?

High quality amps and separate tend to keep channels (and their power supply) separated to avoid interchannel noise and distortion. And they use better shielding and methods to keep RF/EMI noise from effecting the components. So IMO amps are better equipped to combat noise than hybrid/integrated amps

Cabling is kept shorter in integrated amplifiers - talking good integrated amplifiers not the ones most people hear -- You are welcom to come to my place and hear watt 10 watts is capable of doing with modestly sensitive speakers. Some people would like to argue my speakers are only 89,5 db sensitive rather than the the 93db in corner measurement -- so if we take the 89,5db rating that illustrates even more so what 10 watts is capable of doing.

[automaticmojo]

Sorry but this is incorrect - at least partially. What I left out is the function of the speaker. If you own 80db senstive speakers then I would agree that you would need very high wattage amplifiers to get them going. However, there is no need to buy such speakers since you can get easy to drive speakers.

High watt amps and separates also tend to generate noise not lessen it. This has always been an advantage of integrated amps over separates or pseudo hybrids like my amp. Drum beats do not hit 200-300 watts or a watt number. Most all "good" amps have significant reserves to reach loud peaks. The only advantage to high watt amps is volume capability. It takes 10 times the power to get a perceived doubling of the volume to the human ear. Thus a 100 watt amplifier will make a speaker that can handle 100 watts twice as loud as a 10 watt amp. On the other hand if you run a 100 watt amp on an 83db sensitive speaker and I run a 10 watt amp on a 95db senstive speaker (all else being equal) then my system will play louder than yours and have more headroom than yours.

High watt amps tend to require more aliasing or fixing of the signal in order for the amplifier to work properly - high power high damping factor = high negative feedback. It typically makes the graph look prettier but hardly does anything good for the sound. UHF technical advisor Paul Bergman wrote about damping factor in UHF's "The World of High Fidelity" and suggested that amps with damping factors above 40 are 'generally' best avoided. In the end it comes down to experience - I have heard more systems that have huge power power amplifiers such as Krell, YBA, Classe,Bryston etc monoblocks with speakers of not the greatest efficiency such as those from ML, HALES, Gershman Acoustics, Legacy, Wilson, PMC, etc. I have heard fewer systems of high efficiency and low powered Class A amplifiers. These carefully matched systems all have seemed to have more dynamic headroom (less compression) and some can play at significantly higher levels. It has been said that while this is true such speakers are often much bigger and offer less bass repsonse -- but that can be shown to be untrue!

The advantage of some of these speakers of course is that you the customer get far more choice -- you can use an 8 watt amp or an 80 watt amp or an 800 watt amp. And if volume level matters look for a speaker that is high efficient, and can handle a lot of watts. And such speakers also are more able to let you the customer hear the difference in sound quality of the amplifiers at good drive levels. a low watt amp will fizzle out on tough speakers but on easy to drive speakers you can compare a Krell and a SET and and neither will be running out of steam -- then you can hear what the actual amplifiers sound like.

By the way I had loads of fun with PMC and Bryston like set-ups as well - excellent build, powerful sound - but don't give up on the "polar opposite" kind of set-ups. A fellow in town here has gone to 98db sensitive speakers and 8 watt amps from having owned massive SS gear and gigantic speakers designed by Mark Levinson with subwoofers . His system will play more than loud enough for most people. The big Bryston PMC ultimately will play a bit louder but the sacrifice in subtleties and the introduction of fatigue is not a trade that I would make.

Perhaps, but there are plenty of designs, such as H/K PA-2400 and others that take the so called negatives of high power amps into account.
The same can be said for smaller power amps, or flea watt amps/Class A only, , they have their draw back, such as compressing the sound when they become overdriven.
I think your statement of never hearing a 100 watt amp you like-you probably haven't heard many-some of you guys are stuck on small amps-great-but don't knock high power amps, many of us are more than happy with a well designed one.

[Groundbeef]

Wow, your first post and you resurrect a thread from over 2 years ago. Impressive.

[bobsticks]

Did anyone figure out if more watts is better?

[kexodusc]

It really all depends...if your listening habbits are such that you would never take advantage of having 100 watts or more, then having 100 watts or more is useless to you.
I have not found that more powerful amps sound better than less powerful amps when both amps are used within their design limitations. As you get to the extreme limit of the smaller amp, it will start to distort and lose it's sound quality. Often, larger amps have higher quality components than other amps, so sometimes that gets confused with simply having "more watts".
I have found with 84 dB sensitive speakers or better, 60 watt amps are more than enough for me.
My speakers are 88 and 90 dB though, so I need even less power to hit very loud average levels.
RGA is very right, a lot of speakers and listeners really don't need more than a few watts to sound great. A lot of factors to consider.

[Resident Loser]

Can someone give light on my question? I have a Harman Kardon avr-230 which I believe is rated at 50 or 55 watts in stereo. I am looking to buy a used Citation 22 power amp rated at 200 watts (I think). Will this make a significant differnce in sound and what kind of differences will it make? Is it worth the extra money? I have Paradigm monitor 9's as fronts.

Thanks.

...I'd buy the Citation...I have a Citation 19 (100Wpc@ 8 Ohms/ 200wpc@ 4Ohms) purchased in the mid-80s (as I recall) and it has served me well over the years...wide bandwidth and high current output...According to the owners manual, a pdf. @ the HK site, the 22 is of a like breed, check it out here:

http://manuals.harman.com/HK/Owner%2...22-24%20om.pdf

While specs aren't everything, they're a good objective place to start...

jimHJJ(...feel free to ignore all the subjective, anecdotal claptrap and background noise contained in this thread...)

[RGA]

Exhibit A

10 Watt amp 20hz to 20khz full output continuous at all frequencies

Exhibit B

Loudspeaker 100db Sensitive / ruler flat impedance of 8ohms (all frequencies)

1watt - 100 db
2w - 103db
4w - 106db
8 w - 109db
16w - 112db (at 20hz or 400hz or 1khz or 19khz - makes no difference) Impedance is the ONLY thing that influence power demand at a given frequency - not because it's 20hz. Or 400hz or whatever Hz.

And the simple way to check what I am saying is by considering different drivers sensitivities to get the achieved low frequencies. Smaller more rigid woofers tend to require more power (they are less sensitive) than larger lighter paper varieties which can move more air with less power.

That is the theory and it is a fact.

What is true in practice is the fact is bass drivers in loudspeakers are not flat impedance devices - so the nominal may be 8ohms but the bass frequencies may drop to 2 ohms - that requires 10 times the amplifier power. Most amps tube or SS have serious trouble truly doubling their output in such a manner - SET amps like Sugden actually halve their power - so the request for 10 times the power is a dual failure because the amp has 1/10 the power to meet the demand - so now we're talking a 100 times power deficiency to meet a bass demand if it is 2ohm. Yet that amp always wins the blind tests with experienced listeners and engineers from competing high powered manufacturers - so who knows.

Anyway - a normal scenario is as follows:

So the amp is humming along at 4 watts putting out 106 db (as in my example above) in level into the room and suddenly someone steps on the the low note of a pedal organ and the impedance is 2 ohms now the amplifier needs to deliver ten times the power - 40 watts and if the amp is only 10 watts then Houston we have a serious problem. The amp can't do it (well some amps often can since they have peak high power output capabilities over short duration) but it'll wheeze. This is when SETs and Tubes run into their "nice distortion" second harmonic behavior and get "fuzzy"

The speaker is demanding a substantial amount of power from the speaker to hit a given frequency - but ONLY because the impedance dropped at said frequency. Incidentally some designs are just as bad in the treble - the treble frequencies in some designs drop drastically in impedance as well and those frequencies cause low powered amps fits as well.

Also apart of the equation (and more important) is how fast the amplifier reacts to the changes in demand - one advantage of SET is their complete superiority in the time domain and they react fluidly in these situation - switching amps have to calclulate and lag behind - screws up all transient behavior - as does feedback which is 100% reactionary and is always catching up to the signal. So while some of them may be able to meet the demand better and provide a better sense of wollop their transient behavior is smeared and thus owners and reviewers like me ***** and complain that i have to keep turning the volume up because it doesn't sound very clear - something I always had to do with every SS amp I've owned and reviewed. It's also why owners of such systems love to play super loud and buy super powerful amps - they need ot play them super loud to make anything out and thus they in turn need super power amps (cause they have inefficient speakers

But if you can design a 20hz-80hz subwoofer with 100db sensitivity and flat 8 ohm impedance then a 10 watt amp (capable over full bandwidth) will deliver said 20hz-80hz at said 109db into the room. And that is a fact.

Of course no one bothers because they can spend $40 and put a class D 500 watt amplifier into a subwoofer and then they can use the most inefficient (ie; cheap) woofers they can and stuff into a MDF (ie; cheap) box. And they go boom-boom real good. So I'm not really complaining.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Exhibit A

10 Watt amp 20hz to 20khz full output continuous at all frequencies

Exhibit B

Loudspeaker 100db Sensitive / ruler flat impedance of 8ohms (all frequencies)

1watt - 100 db
2w - 103db
4w - 106db
8 w - 109db
16w - 112db (at 20hz or 400hz or 1khz or 19khz - makes no difference) Impedance is the ONLY thing that influence power demand at a given frequency - not because it's 20hz. Or 400hz or whatever Hz.

Richard, you start off with nonsense, and the rest of your post becomes nonsense.

The output of amplifier going to speakers is not symmetrical, it is asymmetrical. More power is always gong to the drivers that reproduce the lowest frequencies than are going to the mid and treble region. Even with powered speakers(of which I work with every day) has more beefier amps going to the bass driver, than going to the tweeter or midrange. The system in my signature is tri-amped, with the most powerful amp going to the bass driver.

So I want to see a speaker paired with a 16watt amp actually reproduce 112db at 20hz. No subwoofer can do it, and you don't even mention the size of the room. Do you really think a 16watt amp will be able to reproduce 112db in the room that my system in my signature sits in? I seriously doubt it.

[RGA]

Sir T

You ignore the theory - this is not difficult. You could IN THEORY design a speaker that is 110db sensitive and can output 20hz. You can then design an amplifier that puts out 10 watts at 20hz. Do the math.

No one does this because - A - the cost would be ridiculous and B the size of the subwoofer would likely be the size of a Hummer.

Big speakers almost always are easier to drive than small speakers - which is why the Joe Roberts of the world run massive speakers on small watts without sacrificing bass.

Size, efficiency, sensitivity.

Subwoofers are typically very small boxes putting out low bass at high levels - they sacrifice efficiency in order to achieve the results - but "IN THEORY" you could make the subwoofer 5 times larger with a much bigger woofer and have much more efficiency and sensitivity and then you could get the required bass with a lot less power to get them going.

As I noted - in practice subwoofers tend to have CRAPPY efficiency which is why they need massive power - but it still comes down to impedance at the frequency

The reason subs came to be popular was that receivers were lousy and could not output below 6 ohms - subs gave them fits.

Edit - Not just subs actually but any speaker that dropped the impedance would blow the receiver.

Another issue with bass - you mention volume at 112db most speakers do not have a response curve that is flat - typically bass frequencies of a speaker are 3-15db lower than their main band (midrange frequencies). Amps are not going to compensate for that. In my example speakers are rated usually at their 1khz band - so as an example

The AN E is 98db sensitive 6 ohm rated loudspeaker running a 30 watt Jinro SET amp (in corners with 18db gain from that position). Martin Colloms (chair of the AES, founder of Monitor Audio, Stereophile measurements go to guy, top of the class at Oxford Engineering measured them at 18hz -6db in room response). "at reasonable drive levels"

95db - 1watt
98db - 2w
101db - 4w
104db - 8 w
107 db -16w
110db - 32w

But the AN E's bass is still a full 6db lower than the main band. So there is no way - just looking at the math above that the speaker can produce 20hz at 108db - obviously (certainly not with that amp.

That having been said the minimum impedance of the AN E is 3.6 ohms and the amplifier has a 4 ohm tap. Therefore the Jinro will put out it's rated output to 4 ohms. Ignoring the 27 or 30 watt rating and using 16 watts as the guide you WILL get plenty of level into its lower registers. But obviously you won't get the level that top of the line subwoofers put out. Indeed, the only way the AN E does it if they are put extremely hard into corners which nets them an 18db gain in bass. Otherwise their tuning frequency is 29hz and that's the best you can get (and it's still 3db lower than the main band).

But there is no reason someone could not simply design a HE subwoofer with a massive woofer that could belt it out with a 10 watt amp. The fact that no one has or does it because the thing would be too big and too expensive and unsalable.

It's still a function of the movement of air - big woofer pushes more air - lower frequencies. Small woofer has to move further to produce lower frequencies (hard to drive needs more power).

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T

You ignore the theory - this is not difficult. You could IN THEORY design a speaker that is 110db sensitive and can output 20hz. You can then design an amplifier that puts out 10 watts at 20hz. Do the math.

Math almost never plays out in the field using real equipment and real rooms as a reference.

No one does this because - A - the cost would be ridiculous and B the size of the subwoofer would likely be the size of a Hummer.

Hence why your example is very poor, there is no reference that supports it.

Big speakers almost always are easier to drive than small speakers - which is why the Joe Roberts of the world run massive speakers on small watts without sacrificing bass.

Size, efficiency, sensitivity.

Subwoofers are typically very small boxes putting out low bass at high levels - they sacrifice efficiency in order to achieve the results - but "IN THEORY" you could make the subwoofer 5 times larger with a much bigger woofer and have much more efficiency and sensitivity and then you could get the required bass with a lot less power to get them going.

Please show me a real world example of this so your theory has some actual support.

As I noted - in practice subwoofers tend to have CRAPPY efficiency which is why they need massive power - but it still comes down to impedance at the frequency

They have crappy efficiency because they handle frequencies that require a long throw high output driver to keep distortion down. Efficiency versus lower distortion and better transient response is the trade off. Everything has its trade off's.

The reason subs came to be popular was that receivers were lousy and could not output below 6 ohms - subs gave them fits.

Edit - Not just subs actually but any speaker that dropped the impedance would blow the receiver.

Another issue with bass - you mention volume at 112db most speakers do not have a response curve that is flat - typically bass frequencies of a speaker are 3-15db lower than their main band (midrange frequencies). Amps are not going to compensate for that. In my example speakers are rated usually at their 1khz band - so as an example

The AN E is 98db sensitive 6 ohm rated loudspeaker running a 30 watt Jinro SET amp (in corners with 18db gain from that position). Martin Colloms (chair of the AES, founder of Monitor Audio, Stereophile measurements go to guy, top of the class at Oxford Engineering measured them at 18hz -6db in room response). "at reasonable drive levels"

95db - 1watt
98db - 2w
101db - 4w
104db - 8 w
107 db -16w
110db - 32w

But the AN E's bass is still a full 6db lower than the main band. So there is no way - just looking at the math above that the speaker can produce 20hz at 108db - obviously (certainly not with that amp.

The lack of real detail in your responses show your are hedging just a bit. If we listened to sine waves, then you may have a point. However music sources are a cumulative media, which must take into consideration a amp that can handle a full bandwidth of signals in real time to be used as an example. There is no size of the room, and you made no specifics at just what exactly is a "reasonable" level. That is a individual floating target.

That having been said the minimum impedance of the AN E is 3.6 ohms and the amplifier has a 4 ohm tap. Therefore the Jinro will put out it's rated output to 4 ohms. Ignoring the 27 or 30 watt rating and using 16 watts as the guide you WILL get plenty of level into its lower registers. But obviously you won't get the level that top of the line subwoofers put out. Indeed, the only way the AN E does it if they are put extremely hard into corners which nets them an 18db gain in bass. Otherwise their tuning frequency is 29hz and that's the best you can get (and it's still 3db lower than the main band).

So you have effectively stated this speaker does not support your original assertions. Thanks!

But there is no reason someone could not simply design a HE subwoofer with a massive woofer that could belt it out with a 10 watt amp. The fact that no one has or does it because the thing would be too big and too expensive and unsalable.

It's still a function of the movement of air - big woofer pushes more air - lower frequencies. Small woofer has to move further to produce lower frequencies (hard to drive needs more power).

In all of these words you have posted, you have offered nothing to support them. Just theory, and no actual example.

That should tell you loads about your theory.

[RGA]

Well I am not sure exactly what you want.

Martin Colloms' in room response of the AN E from the corner position confirmed that they were 18hz -6db. At what level? Well most of the British press measure loudspeakers at their sensitivity level which for that model was 94db (which would mean 18hz at 88db) - since 6db down from 94db is 88db. That's pretty reasonable I would say. The speaker maker's claim is that it will go to 108db uncompressed. THDistortion incidentally never rises above 0.6% and they measured it as 0.2% in the bass.

But a better example of a speaker that will happily put out bass to 20hz with SET amps are those from Acapella - Fred Crowder runs Audio Note Kegon 20 watt amps on his Acapella Triolon Excalibur MKII speakers. scroll down Acapella speakers

I never said that more watts would not play something louder - but to get it louder you need a DOUBLING of the watts for every 3db gain in level - whether that gain is at 20hz or 20khz.

And those gains will ONLY occur once the lower power amp is at it's limit. So when my Amp is pushed to maximum - then and only then will a more powerful amp make itself known as being more powerful. But depending on the speaker's sensitivity (which doesn't take that much) I can make people ears physically hurt on my 92db speakers and 10 watts amplifier with very good bass below 30hz thank you very much.

A big Sub would add bass and would add volume level - no argument from me. Unfortunately they always sound bad for music IME.

[Florian]

I swapped my KRELL KRS 200 Monoblocks with 310 Watts (8ohm) <-- Personally measured for 60 Watt SET amps on a high inefficient full range ribbon speaker. Not only does it sound much better it also plays louder because it does not compress the crap out of the signal and feedback it to death :-)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I swapped my KRELL KRS 200 Monoblocks with 310 Watts (8ohm) <-- Personally measured for 60 Watt SET amps on a high inefficient full range ribbon speaker. Not only does it sound much better it also plays louder because it does not compress the crap out of the signal and feedback it to death :-)

So are you saying an amp like the Bryston 28B SST compresses the crap out of the signal and feedbacks it to death?

Florian, I don't think so.....

[Florian]

So are you saying an amp like the Bryston 28B SST compresses the crap out of the signal and feedbacks it to death?

Florian, I don't think so.....

Hello SirT,

i only stated it for my KRELL KRS 200 Monoblocks. Feel free to try the Bryston. In my personal experience, amplifiers that use feedback do not sound as good to my ears as amplifiers which do not use feedback at all.

Cheers