Just wondering....

[Feanor]

I agree that concealed carry along with Stand Your Ground is a bad idea. I also think George Zimmerman has a history of prejudice based on his calls to dispatcher's. His comment that they always get away says vigilante to me. A combination of hate, a gun and a law that empowers people to become afraid to justify behaviors is a lethal combination. If he was afraid he could have stayed in his car and driven away. To me his actions showed he was acting out of prejudice.

It's also a fact that the race card has been played by Martin's family and the media. Very likely racism was a factor with Zimmerman, but my point is that bad gun & stand-your-ground laws would have made the scenario almost as likely if Zimmerman and Martin had both been black, both white, or both whatever.

[Hyfi]

Bottom line is that the dispatcher told him to stay in his car and leave the kid alone. End of story. Gun laws mean nothing here. Failure to follow simple instructions was the main problem.

Stand your ground does not mean carry when you're not supposed to be, confronting someone when you're told not to, and then shooting that person sounds way far from standing your own ground. I am thinking it is supposed to mean that if someone breaks into your home, you can shoot first and ask questions later, not attack and shoot and then claim otherwise.

[Feanor]

Bottom line is that the dispatcher told him to stay in his car and leave the kid alone. End of story. Gun laws mean nothing here. Failure to follow simple instructions was the main problem.

Stand your ground does not mean carry when you're not supposed to be, confronting someone when you're told not to, and then shooting that person sounds way far from standing your own ground. I am thinking it is supposed to mean that if someone breaks into your home, you can shoot first and ask questions later, not attack and shoot and then claim otherwise.

It remains to be seen whether Stand-you-ground will be invoked in this case. Of course Zimmerman ought to have followed police instructions. I suggest because he was carrying a gun he was emboldened to confront Martin instead of following instructions.

This is the significance of too many people with guns: that it provokes rash behavior leading to death 'way too often.

[Hyfi]

Sorry, it's not "too many people with guns" it is more like 'too many idiots with guns' giving a bad name to the majority of gun owners that are not idiots. I have 6 handguns and a Permit to Carry. I have carried maybe 10 times in 15 years. I do however keep them loaded and hidden around the house in various hidden places and I will stand my ground if needed. But, I don't go looking for trouble as GZ did feeling like a tough guy with a gun.

GZs job as a Neighborhood Watch participant ended with his call to the police. Period!

The reference to all his other calls and statements like "They always get away" shows this to be more racially motivated than not. I would bet if it was a chubby white boy with his pants falling down, his actions would have been different. But it was a black kid in a hoody, which in his views meant criminal.

[Feanor]

Sorry, it's not "too many people with guns" it is more like 'too many idiots with guns' giving a bad name to the majority of gun owners that are not idiots. I have 6 handguns and a Permit to Carry. I have carried maybe 10 times in 15 years. I do however keep them loaded and hidden around the house in various hidden places and I will stand my ground if needed. But, I don't go looking for trouble as GZ did feeling like a tough guy with a gun.

So I guess we'll have to disagree to some extent. I own three handguns myself because I used to target shoot at a range. I'm confident I could use such weapons responsibly at all times but I'm not so sure about other people; you can't just dismiss Zimmerman as an aberration of human behaviour.

Incidentally my guns are virtually useless for self-defence since the Canadian requirements for storage, especially of handguns, renders them practically inaccessible in an an emergency such as home invasion. And it's noteworthy that self-defence against hypothetical intruders is NOT a valid justification for a gun permit. Up here we not only have a background check but a 5 year renewable permit to own any type of gun. There are additional requirements in order to purchase any type of gun and yet more restrictions to own or purchase handguns. Having fewer guns and stricter handling restrictions in Canada means we have fewer than 1/4 the total gun deaths and 1/7 the gun homicides per capital that you have in the USA -- it certainly isn't because Canadians are any less idiots than Americans. (See Wiki reference HERE.)

[Hyfi]

So I guess we'll have to disagree to some extent. I own three handguns myself because I used to target shoot at a range. I'm confident I could use such weapons responsibly at all times but I'm not so sure about other people; you can't just dismiss Zimmerman as an aberration of human behaviour.

Incidentally my guns are virtually useless for self-defence since the Canadian requirements for storage, especially of handguns, renders them practically inaccessible in an an emergency such as home invasion. And it's noteworthy that self-defence against hypothetical intruders is NOT a valid justification for a gun permit. Up here we not only have a background check but a 5 year renewable permit to own any type of gun. There are additional requirements in order to purchase any type of gun and yet more restrictions to own or purchase handguns. Having fewer guns and stricter handling restrictions in Canada means we have fewer than 1/4 the total gun deaths and 1/7 the gun homicides per capital that you have in the USA -- it certainly isn't because Canadians are any less idiots than Americans. (See Wiki reference HERE.)

My permit also needs to be renewed every 5 years. Every gun I purchased had a waiting and background check period of a week. And I did not get the permit under a hypothetical home invasion paranoia, I got it because it is my right and my county approves law abiding citizens to do so. You don't need the permit to have them in your house, in any fashion you wish, the permit is to carry a concealed weapon. I would rather it be in the open and we have groups in my county debating just that now.



Simple Math can show you why you have a lower percentage of issues. And I am betting we have a few more illegals here too than you.
Canada
Population: 34,568,211 (July 2013 est.)
USA
Population: 316,668,567 (July 2013 est.)

And like Mark says, come vacation in Philly or Newark for a week and see if you feel the same way.

By the way, Happy Birthday Mark!

[Feanor]

My permit also needs to be renewed every 5 years. Every gun I purchased had a waiting and background check period of a week. And I did not get the permit under a hypothetical home invasion paranoia, I got it because it is my right and my county approves law abiding citizens to do so. You don't need the permit to have them in your house, in any fashion you wish, the permit is to carry a concealed weapon. I would rather it be in the open and we have groups in my county debating just that now.

Simple Math can show you why you have a lower percentage of issues. And I am betting we have a few more illegals here too than you.
Canada
Population: 34,568,211 (July 2013 est.)
USA
Population: 316,668,567 (July 2013 est.)

And like Mark says, come vacation in Philly or Newark for a week and see if you feel the same way.

By the way, Happy Birthday Mark!

Well Happy Birthday to Mark.

Concealed carry permits are practically impossible to get in Canada; if they were I'd apply for one. However the last thing I'd want, personally, is to be actually seen carrying a gun.

The highest crime rates in Canada are among aboriginals, (native Indians). You're right that we don't have the same volume of illegal immigrants here. On the other hand Canada admits about 3x the number of (legal) immigrants per capita compared to the USA. Overall crime rates are trending slightly downward here as they are in the USA.

I'm not sure why total population size would have much to do with fewer gun deaths. According to the same reference I sited, Honduras has the highest rate of gun homicides, 64.8/100k (!!) and its population is only 8.2M. Looking at city sizes, the population of the greater Toronto area is 5.5M and the homicide rate is 3.3/100k, while the greater Detroit area has a similar pop of 5.2M but a homicide rate of 46/100k.

Despite that I'm a gun owner myself, I'm inclined to believe that, overall statistically, guns don't protect us, they get us killed.

[JohnMichael]

As a self liking liberal I am able to see when race or any reason to hate is part of the situation. GZ could not help himself and had to get out of his car and elevate the situation. He had to have the upper hand.

I have been the victim of extreme hate so I can recognize it. I believe that is what drove George Zimmerman.

[markw]

As a self liking liberal I am able to see when race or any reason to hate is part of the situation. GZ could not help himself and had to get out of his car and elevate the situation. He had to have the upper hand.

I have been the victim of extreme hate so I can recognize it. I believe that is what drove George Zimmerman.

Sorry, John, you weren't there, and neither was I. We're both at the mercy of what MSM chooses to feed us, and that was the crux of my post.

But, sometimes when things don't look "right", some investigation is called for. It was mentioned that there have been "happeniongs" in that neighborhood in the past and he was just checking the situation out. Perhaps Mr. Zimmernman's curiosity could have prevented this recent occurance in an upper-class, liberal, lily-white, neighborhood. Sumptin' tells me that applications for gun permits are gonna soar in that neighborhood.

No offense, but you live in a place where problems are relatively few. If you want an education of what goes on around here on a daily basis, periodicaly check out NJ.COM to see what goes on around here on a daily basis. We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

[dean_martin]

Sorry, John, you weren't there, and neither was I. We're both at the mercy of what MSM chooses to feed us, and that was the crux of my post.

Your "crux" is wrong. We can watch the trial live and re-plays at night. Stop rolling out that tired old BS about the msm. I'll give you this much, however, PRE-TRIAL publicity can be less than thorough, not necessarily because the media is filtering in favor of one side or the other but because the actual parties are releasing their most favorable spin.

[markw]

The media has Zimmerman tried, convicted and executed already. They love to take these stories and race-bait the self-loathing liberal masses into a frenzy. Look at those Duke University LaCrosse players a few years ago.

And, while we're at it, hoccum there's no mention of this little incident by the mass media? It sure looks like a much more heinous crime to me. Perhaps the baby that was shot in the face was the wrong color? More interestingly, it seems that according to this later article that helping the perps conceal their crime is a real family affair.

[dean_martin]

The media has Zimmerman tried, convicted and executed already. They love to take these stories and race-bait the self-loathing liberal masses into a frenzy.

Uhhh, hold on there pardner. FOX just said that the only evidence of racism is Martin's use of the word "cracker". I'm not sure if they're referring to a saltine, Ritz, oyster or one of those fancy party crackers.