Islam: Our Partners in Peace...

[Auricauricle]

...And this is exactly why the intellectuals and artists are among the first to be burnt at the stakes when the sheepdip hits the fan!

[nightflier]

There is still a Republican party? I thought that after that whole Palin tragedy they couldn't decide anymore if they cared more about god or about money.

What exists in each society however, is conservatives and progressives. Yes, even in Islamic states with Sharia Law. And yes, even in Alabama, too.

[3LB]

How do we foster an era of education in cultures whose extremist contingencies like to keep that sort of thing to a minimum, or at least, control it?

[markw]

so we're ultimately worried about absorption or expulsion of one culture into/by another...to combat it, we could have more kids, and lead lives condusive to affording and supporting lotsa kids (got it), but if we can't, for some reason, have lotsa kids, could we maybe support others who are willing to do so, through some sort of public funding...we could call it...welfare...oh the irony of it all

Unfortunately, when a self-replicating welfare society is created, you just wind up with mindless hordes of people who simply take from society. These people are socially and morally ambivilent and add nothing to society.They don't care about anything until the handout sstop and reality whacks them upside the head with a 2x4. By then it's too late.

does this mean we have to go to church too? cuz I don't want to - the message is boring and the music sucks.

You don't have to now, do you? But, should the worst happen, I doubt you will either. You'll just have to live by their religious laws interperted in the most brutal way possible. Oh, unless you DO go to their "church", you'll be treated as a second-class citizen, and have to pay extra for the privelege. Oh, don't forget to kneel towards Mecca several times daily...

You are right there, because western civilization is a much safer place for women. You'll never see a woman flogged in an official capacity here. Soooo...how much higher is the rate of sexually based crimes against women in Islamic countries?

Remember, it's not always reported. Why would a woman want to report it? They are always responsible for it happening and are punished. And, why would men bother? Add to that that men are allowed to "force" their women to have sex on demand.

So, it's not quite the the black and white question you think. Nice try, though.

[Feanor]

How do we foster an era of education in cultures whose extremist contingencies like to keep that sort of thing to a minimum, or at least, control it?

Do you mean Iran, Afganistan? Or do you mean Alabama, Texas?

Religious extremists are bad nooz!! Whether Islamic Fundamentalists or Christian Fundamentalists, they are equally filled with self-righteous certainty.

[nightflier]

...your postulation that living under the yoke of European colonialists who took over by force and being ruled by "benevolent rulers" being preferable to not is highly questionable.

...I cannot think of any white-male dominated country that is under Christian and Western economic control as being any place for a non-Christian or a woman to live safely....

Do you get the meaning of a new immigrant from the Middle East in a Western Country? That is essentially a second-class citizen who has to pay for safety and still has to follow Christian law that is geared towards profit rather than welfare....

Look carefully at the population stats for the Middle East and you'll see that, just like the US was doing in its own country, and then in the Phillipines and Latin America, the Middle East was being invaded by colonialists, and a foreign influence was slowly taking over.

Read ...(references too many to list) and then you tell me that colonial hegemony is not something to be carefully monitored. There is no negotiation involved. When a Christian and colonial power can, it will apply it's own laws.

...

Of course, if you don't mind your grand-kids living under Christian profit-motivated laws that don't guaranty their welfare, then that's your choice.

Pot, meet kettle.

And while I don't disagree with you, and I share the Western perspective that punishment in Sharia Law countries is inhumane, the people who live in those societies (yes, even women) don't all share all our criticisms of it. While certainly not ideal, we also have to recognize that their lives are safer, healthier, and happier in many cases. Crime rates are incredibly low; suicide rates, homelessness, and unemployment are practically non-existent, social bonds are stronger, charitable giving is 2-3 times greater, and infant mortality rates are lower than our own. Imagine not having to lock your car, or your home. Even simpler things like child care when you work is more readily available. Perhaps our disdain for their way of life is more rooted in our lack of knowledge about it.

I'm of the opinion that we can learn a lot from them as well as they can learn from us. But the xenophobic posturing that many of us take on when the topic of Islamic culture invading ours is brought up, only serves to increase tensions and drive us apart. This leads to less understanding, cooperation, and exchanges and ultimately a less safe world for both our cultures. With our crusading and colonial ways, we haven't exactly put our best foot forward. And our political, military, and economic hegemony of the past 100 years have hardly served to demonstrate that our way is better for them. It is a 2-world system where the rift grows deeper every time we focus on our differences rather than our commonalities. Dwelling on the minor impact of their culture as invading ours not only glosses over our own violently invading ways, but makes resolving our differences that much harder because we get lost in xenophobic irrationality.

While we talk of individualism, self-determination, and Manifest Destiny as virtues, coming from the dominant power, these ideals also smack of us-vs.them thinking, isolationism and the act of putting up walls between cultures. In essence, it is the antithesis of society. In nature, an isolated culture dies out and we should heed that lesson. At what point do we stop segregating out "undesirable" elements in our own society? After the Muslims are gone, do we then go after Catholics? Then Mormons? Jews? Unitarians? Pentecostals? And once we are all of the same church, do we then use skin color, gender-preference, income, birth, to further purify our ideal society? Dr. Strangelove would blush at the prospect, I'm sure....

It seems that many conservatives, Republicans, and religious-minded folks here in the US, are so focused on individualistic ideals and defending their possessions and beliefs that they loose sight of the fact that their views are really anti-social, anti-societal, and only viable on an individual basis. Living with others requires compromises, give-and-take, and tolerance. Anyone who doesn't believe so isn't married, lol. A society of one is not a society anymore.

There was a time during the cold war, when the a common criticism of extreme communists was that they were quite similar to fascists. I think the same logic can be applied here. At what point do our Western conservatives veer so far to the right that they meet Sharia Law fanatics on the other side? Wake up people: they are preaching the same isolationist and invasion-fearing rhetoric that some of us are. Perhaps unfortunately for both of you, real society, growth, and ultimately, the survival of our species, lies somewhere in between.

[markw]

Boy, you sure see things through rose-colored glasses, don't you? You make ithe muslim way of life look like some sort of idealistic society where justice prevails and evil is put in it's place and the western worlsdis the playground of satan.

If you want to talk about a second-class citizen, go live in a muslim controlled country. Be sure to bring your wife and daughters.

You DO realize thatt you've posted pretty much the he biggest load I've seen since I took colon-blow.

P.S. this was directed at nightflier.

[markw]

Do you mean Iran, Afganistan? Or do you mean Alabama, Texas?

Religious extremists are bad nooz!! Whether Islamic Fundamentalists or Christian Fundamentalists, they are equally filled with self-righteous certainty.

"O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee."


My, my... look who lives in a religiously fundamentalist country! You've got some nerve to talk about the US with those words in your national anthem, doncha?

But I guess that's just that famous Canadian self-delusion of of moral superiority kicking in again, eh?

But, yes, any time fundamentalists force their beliefs and laws on everyone it's bad. It's a good thing our constitution disallows that.

[02audionoob]

Do you mean Iran, Afganistan? Or do you mean Alabama, Texas?

What an outright jackass comment.

[nightflier]

Markw, Have you ever been to a Muslim country?

I've visited the UAE, including Dubai, Rasalkhaima and Sharjah, where Sharia law is practiced and they even have public beatings (I never saw one of those, nor would I want to see one). In essence this is one of the most repressive places in the world. Despite all that, I certainly didn't get the sense that life there was miserable. Our interpreter was actually very honest and talked about the good & bad of living there. But what struck me more was how kind and open people were. They knew I was American and indirectly responsible for much of their reasons for being angry at the West. Yet they never made me feel threatened or even disliked and they were about as kind as they could have been.

Now I've had the similar experiences in Germany and South Africa, even in New York, Saint Louis and Columbus, here in the US. But in those places there were always people who were not so nice and neighborhoods where I wouldn't be safe, and I'm not even going to talk about the issue of race. No such dangers or prejudices in the UAE. Now I'm sure these are only my personal experiences, but it is, nonetheless first hand. Now I realize we don't all have the opportunity to travel, but if we're going to talk about rose-colored glasses, maybe our view of our own American society is a bit more colored than we would like to believe.

I've also been to London, Copenhagen, Amsterdam and Paris and I have seen a less glorious side of our Western culture. I've also seen what the "Islamic invasion" is like there, and while there are many problems, I also know that the vast majority of immigrants want nothing more than to find religious tolerance for themselves as well as for their hosts. The ones who do leave the Middle East do so for a better, more free life. For the most part, they are moderates and they want to meet the West somewhere in the middle. They aren't looking to turn the West into another Sharia law-controlled state, or else, why would they have left their own countries?

If it is to survive, human society needs to find a middle ground for religion, culture, and wealth. As much as it may displease us here in the US, our American society is not it, so we should really stop trying to force everyone to be like us.

[markw]

You visited them? Good for you!

You don't think that since you were there for, I'm assuming, the financial betterment of them and your company couldn't have had any bearing on your treatment?

Try living there permanently as a "commoner". Bring your family as well.

Then get back to us.

FWIW, don't go putting words in my mouth. I thought you were above setting up straw man arguments but perhaps I was wrong.

Nowhere did I ever suggest that ALL muslims were raving maniacs. All it takes is a few, and they can be very politically savvy as well as cunning. Think about what event today marks and what nineteen Saudis with box-cutters were able to accomplish. And remember, the Saudis are are supposed to be friends.

But, please explain to me all the recent muslim terrorist activity in England since they allowed sharia law to creep into the landscape. Nose of the camel, perhaps?

[Feanor]

What an outright jackass comment.

Or maybe not ... Bible Belt.

And yes, markw, is right, sort of, because there is a Bible belt in Canada too: see the same article.

[Feanor]

"O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee."


My, my... look who lives in a religiously fundamentalist country! You've got some nerve to talk about the US with those words in your national anthem, doncha?

But I guess that's just that famous Canadian self-delusion of of moral superiority kicking in again, eh?

But, yes, any time fundamentalists force their beliefs and laws on everyone it's bad. It's a good thing our constitution disallows that.

Try not to be an ass. The point is I deplore religous fundamentalists what ever their religious flavor and where ever they are. And yes, there are a few in Canada.

[02audionoob]

Or maybe not ... Bible Belt.

Nah...trust me...it is. And you often are. But at least you're consistent.

[nightflier]

Mark,

My aunt lives there. So I do know a bit about it. Also, I was there as a tourist - this was not a business trip. And we took our kids too. My wife covered, but that's a small price to pay for what we got to see, hear, taste and experience.

Regarding those highjackers, they were indeed from Saudi Arabia (most of them) so why did we invade Iraq? Of all the countries in the region, Iraq was the most un-fundamentalist, so why did we go there? More importantly, why were Saudi planes allowed to leave on September 12th when no other planes were allowed to fly at all? Why did some 30+ large investors and firms pull their money out of the market at the end of the day on September 10th and why isn't anybody asking them a few questions? And why did we do such a piss-poor job protecting ourselves before September 11th? I mean you had guys in Florida wanting to learn how to fly w/o knowing how to take off or land - are you kidding me? Was it maybe because Bush and his cabinet in their infinite wisdom pulled 90% of the counter-terrorist staff that Clinton put in place, and redirected their efforts on Iraq? There's a hole lot of questions I would like answered too.

Now this doesn't at all excuse those SOBs who flew those 4 planes into buildings, but it sure makes you wonder how much of a green light they had been given. Rose colored glasses only see so much from a black & white mindset.

And there is no correlation between terrorist activity in England and Sharia law that I'm aware of. If there is, please enlighten us.

[markw]

Try not to be an ass. The point is I deplore religous fundamentalists what ever their religious flavor and where ever they are. And yes, there are a few in Canada.

Wow. Two anti-US digs and then you tell me not to be an ass.

I'm not being an ass. I merely stooped to your level.

Didn't you like it? Too fargin' bad.

You should keep your jingoistic sphincter shut before posting your verbal diarrhea here.

[Feanor]

Wow. Two anti-US digs and then you tell me not to be an ass.

I'm not being an ass. I merely stooped to your level.

Didn't you like it? Too fargin' bad.

You should keep your jingoistic sphincter shut before posting your verbal diarrhea here.

Again please, who's the one who can't take it? Hypocrite.

[markw]

Again please, who's the one who can't take it? Hypocrite.

Who's talking about taking it? I can take it ...and I can dish it out.

You started with the jingoistic bullshiite and now you cry like a little baby when I throw it back at you?

Sheesh...

[markw]

Mark,

My aunt lives there. So I do know a bit about it. Also, I was there as a tourist - this was not a business trip. And we took our kids too. My wife covered, but that's a small price to pay for what we got to see, hear, taste and experience.

Really... I'd sure like to know how the little woman felt about this. After all, that is a fairly misogynistic society and I can see why you wouldn't be bothered by It.

Regarding those highjackers, they were indeed from Saudi Arabia (most of them) so why did we invade Iraq? Of all the countries in the region, Iraq was the most un-fundamentalist, so why did we go there?

dunno. But in hindsight it was a mistake. But, many countries provided intelligence to support it.

More importantly, why were Saudi planes allowed to leave on September 12th when no other planes were allowed to fly at all?

Now you're saying that all saudis were involved? Interesting cospiracy theory. Maybe it was for their safety?

Why did some 30+ large investors and firms pull their money out of the market at the end of the day on September 10th and why isn't anybody asking them a few questions? And why did we do such a piss-poor job protecting ourselves before September 11th? I mean you had guys in Florida wanting to learn how to fly w/o knowing how to take off or land - are you kidding me? Was it maybe because Bush and his cabinet in their infinite wisdom pulled 90% of the counter-terrorist staff that Clinton put in place, and redirected their efforts on Iraq? There's a hole lot of questions I would like answered too.

Hindsight is 20/20, isn't it? The clues to finding the killer in a good mystery novel is always obvious when one gets to the end, isn't it?

Now this doesn't at all excuse those SOBs who flew those 4 planes into buildings, but it sure makes you wonder how much of a green light they had been given. Rose colored glasses only see so much from a black & white mindset

I'm glad to hear that, but what "green light" are you referring to? Who do you think gave it? Please share and offer some proof. I'm curious..

And there is no correlation between terrorist activity in England and Sharia law that I'm aware of. If there is, please enlighten us.

MAybe sharia law has nothing to do with it. Maybe it IS all the muslims over there being allowed to run around unchecked. As for enlightenment. simply go to google.com and google "emgland+terrorist activity+muslim" and you'll find hours of reading to satisfy your curiosity.

[Feanor]

Great thread, eh, 'Sticks?

My final thought here is that the problem that western nations have today with Radical Islam, Islamists, Jihadists, Al-Qaeda, and the Taliban, is a political problem, not a religious one. At its roots are the politics and economics of the 20th century, not theology.

[markw]

Great thread, eh, 'Sticks?

My final thought here is that the problem that western nations have today with Radical Islam, Islamists, Jihadists, Al-Qaeda, and the Taliban, is a political problem, not a religious one. At its roots are the politics and economics of the 20th century, not theology.

And, with islam and politics, they are so intertwined in their society and laws that they are one on the same. That was pretty much the whole gist of this thread. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on that.

Then again, maybe not quite that surprised...

[markw]

Das freulein ist korrect....

KORAN commands to kill infidels:
...
... many quotes.
...

Mebbe some Nazi apologists will come along to correct me...

Well, not nazis per se, but you essentially called it.

[Smokey]

As for today, simply look around you. I cannot think of any country that is under muslim control as being any place for a non-muslim or a woman to live safely.

Apparently you didn’t google that subject

One wouldn’t think that any religion minority be living in Iran since the government is so extreme, but outside Israel, Iran have largest Jews population in the middle east (150,000-200,000). And healthy Christian population (300.000), and Zoroastrian (Fire God) which was original Persia religion before Islam.

Those three religions are recognize by the state and each one have a seat in parliament. They have churches, Senegal and fire temple to worship and live like any other citizen. The only thing that religion minority members can not do is to run for political office.

Here are some photos of Christians celebrating new year in a 400 year old church in Iran.

[markw]

According to other sources, the Sephardic Jewish population in Iran is 25,000. Where did you get your figure? They have been there since 500 bc and, strangely enough, do seem to be well treated..

And, as per this article, the Christian population in Iran is not exactly faring quite so well, and rarely has. snippet follows...

"Due to the socio-economic and political pressures in the years following the Iranian Revolution, periods of outright persecution and times of more latent discrimination, many Iranian Christians, both as part of the general exodus of Iranians and as response to the specific pressures, have emigrated, mostly to the USA, Canada and Western Europe. In 2000, about 0.4% of Iran's population were Christians. In 1975, Christians numbered about 1.5% of the total population. Statistically, a much larger percentage of non-Muslims have emigrated out of Iran.[citation needed]

While the government guarantees the recognised Christian minorities a number of rights (production and sale of non-halal foods),[citation needed] guaranteed representation in parliament, special family law etc.,[citation needed] government intrusion, expropriation of property, forced closure and persecution, particularly in the initial years after the Iranian Revolution, have all been documented. According to the Barnabas Fund, 'the regime rules through fear, and they want Christians to be afraid'. Most prominent has been the death of Haik Hovsepian Mehr, bishop of the Jamiat-e Rabbani, in 1994. Recently the continuing imprisonment of Hamid Pourmand,[2] [3] a lay pastor of Jammiat-e Rabboni, and the murder of Ghorban Tourani,[4] [5] the pastor of an independent evangelical church have created international concern."

Remember, all the religions you mention were there and were welcomed by the rulers of the country before Islam was invented, but the fact they remain is good, and a testament to their steadfast will to remain in their homeland.

[3LB]

Do you mean Iran, Afganistan? Or do you mean Alabama, Texas?

Do you really think personal freedom and access to education are as limited in the American south (people who have the right to vote, freedom of speech etc.) as they are in Islamic extremist controlled regimes (where they do not have a vote, free speech, etc)?

How can you make such a comparison?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and give you the benefit of the doubt and write that off to your 'just wanting to stir the pot'.