• 08-29-2012, 05:21 AM
    Worf101
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    What you missed is because of #1-The unions overplayed their hands, they have also driven up the cost of products, made it so the corps send the MFG to China to save money and NOT pay the Union wages and endless bennies.

    So Unions were at one time a good thing, 100 years ago, but today they have made America into a Consumer Country and not an MFG Country.

    Americans can't afford to buy American Made Products. Something does not make sense about that.

    Yesterday I was listening to NPR and an interview with authors of a new book about Romney and his money. Due to his questionably legal yet immoral tactics, his IRA is worth somewhere between 20 and 100 million, 1/100 of 1%- percentile have that. The way he and the others at Bain did it was by quickly switching the investments to the ones that Bain created of businesses that they would shut down for the profits as they were doing it, but they used a blind trust or whatever the term.

    He himself is the one who years ago when running against one of the Kennedys started the whole Tax Return issue and now that it has turned around on him, he claims it's an issue of privacy. A-Hole!


    It's a shame Obama is killing the middle class and will continue to do so if he gets re-elected, but Romney is not the better choice of two evils. He may help me to save a little of what I have for 4 years, but someone has to pay all the outrageous debt sometime and guess who it will be? The Middle Class. We are screwed no matter what over the course of time no matter which F'ed up party has control.

    I believe the Corps would've left the US eventually anyway. The Unions didn't HELP, but their greed would've led them to leave eventually. The only thing about Oil depletion is that it will force some companies to return to U.S. soil as the costs of world spanning supply lines becomes prohibitive but it won't be out of a sense of patriotism or anything else that forces them to do it. I don't see your Obama - War on the Middle Class thing but you must have a reason for believing it and you don't sound like a knee-jerker by any means.

    I personally think the man inherited a "no-win" situation and has done the best he could with Congress and the rich aligned against him but who's to say.
    '
    As for the nation's future? I personally think the Republic is finished unless we get the lobbyists and money out of it. Elected office has devolved to an exercise of raising money to get re-elected THAT and ONLY THAT matters to the average politician of either party. Citizen's United legalized bribery and as long as the situation remains that way, we're doomed as a representative democracy.

    Worf
  • 08-29-2012, 06:06 AM
    Hyfi
    Worf, It is not a matter of Obama's war on the middle class, it's more an issue of every handout he sets up comes out of the middle class's pocket.

    When people like Romney making the money he does in his sleep pays 13% or less in taxes, and I pay closer to 28% where do you see the money coming from?
  • 08-29-2012, 06:38 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Worf101 View Post
    ...
    As for the nation's future? I personally think the Republic is finished unless we get the lobbyists and money out of it. Elected office has devolved to an exercise of raising money to get re-elected THAT and ONLY THAT matters to the average politician of either party. Citizen's United legalized bribery and as long as the situation remains that way, we're doomed as a representative democracy.

    Worf

    The USA is now a plutocracy. That was doubtful up until the US Supreme Court declared corporations = people, money = free speech, and allowed anonymous contributions, but it's a done deal now. I don't see a way back.

    Well, it would take much smarter, better informed voters -- good luck with that. :frown5:
  • 08-29-2012, 05:13 PM
    Worf101
    On some levels I agree...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    Worf, It is not a matter of Obama's war on the middle class, it's more an issue of every handout he sets up comes out of the middle class's pocket.

    When people like Romney making the money he does in his sleep pays 13% or less in taxes, and I pay closer to 28% where do you see the money coming from?

    In some respects we are "over entitled" in some areas. However you know that when the axe falls it doesn't fall evenly. If cuts were made and EVERYONE sacrificed I could swallow some of the cost cutting rhetoric on the right. But anyone with eyes knows it doesn't work that way. Oil subsidies, agribusiness subsidies, defence contracts they all get theirs and will keep getting theirs. Because they contribute the big money

    Pell grants, day care, summer jobs, school lunches, etc... all get it in the neck. If I believed for one blessed minute it would be otherwise, I'd be right with you.

    Worf
  • 08-29-2012, 10:02 PM
    RGA
    If Corporations are deemed the problem for moving offshore why don't people get together and boycott those corporations?

    We are in an internet age and you can educate people that the reason they're out of work is that corporation X dumped your jobs for foreign workers to save them money and make the board of directors hundred millionaires.

    Can't boycott them all you say but you can do a series of targeted boycotts. So for 6 months no in the U.S. or Canada purchases a single Nike product of any kind - no shoes shirts etc. Or any of their subsidiary companies under different names.

    That would probably decimate their corporation. And it spreads so Britain and most of Europe would go along with them.

    The idea is to basically send a message to the entire corporate world that the people can shut you down. Sure not everyone will be on board but everyone doesn't need to be - just a real lot of people to make a very serious dent.

    People were angry over Gas prices so I suggested the same idea to target one gas station chain such as Chevron and no one goes to a Chevron for 3 months. If it's the only one in town fine - but in most major cities there are many choices - just skip them - send a message - next time it could be Texaco and it could be for a year. Scare them. The only way to change corporate thinking is money. Convince them that doing good will make them money - or negative reinforcement through boycott is the way to go.

    It's the way you get your cat off the couch, or your kid to behave like a human and not a thug.

    Condition the corporations and the businesses to do our bidding - the bidding of the "national interest."
  • 08-30-2012, 01:53 AM
    thekid
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    If Corporations are deemed the problem for moving offshore why don't people get together and boycott those corporations?

    We are in an internet age and you can educate people that the reason they're out of work is that corporation X dumped your jobs for foreign workers to save them money and make the board of directors hundred millionaires.

    Can't boycott them all you say but you can do a series of targeted boycotts. So for 6 months no in the U.S. or Canada purchases a single Nike product of any kind - no shoes shirts etc. Or any of their subsidiary companies under different names.

    That would probably decimate their corporation. And it spreads so Britain and most of Europe would go along with them.

    The idea is to basically send a message to the entire corporate world that the people can shut you down. Sure not everyone will be on board but everyone doesn't need to be - just a real lot of people to make a very serious dent.

    People were angry over Gas prices so I suggested the same idea to target one gas station chain such as Chevron and no one goes to a Chevron for 3 months. If it's the only one in town fine - but in most major cities there are many choices - just skip them - send a message - next time it could be Texaco and it could be for a year. Scare them. The only way to change corporate thinking is money. Convince them that doing good will make them money - or negative reinforcement through boycott is the way to go.

    It's the way you get your cat off the couch, or your kid to behave like a human and not a thug.

    Condition the corporations and the businesses to do our bidding - the bidding of the "national interest."

    RGA

    I would agree that is a method but it is not the method. Government can end loopholes that reward moving jobs overseas or if that is too harsh then reward business that stays.

    I know we compete in a global market place and that business often chases the cheapest labor costs to stay competitive but that is not always the case and often we lose jobs to countries whose governments subsidize certain industries so while it smacks of protectionism we cannot continue to export jobs.

    Also I do not want to hear one more idiot spout off about how the US has the highest corporate taxes and that the key to growth here is to lower the corporate rates. Because of all the tax loopholes the actual corporate tax rate paid in the US is very competitive and among some of the lowest among the industrialized countries. Throw in the fact that many corporations have relocated key segments of their business and even their corporate offices (There are many sham offices overseas manned by only a secretary and a phone) they pay even less taxes. I am not willing to lower the taxes of any corporation that already has relocated the majority of their operations overseas. Close the loopholes and subsidies and THEN we will talk about tax rates.
  • 08-30-2012, 03:04 AM
    Hyfi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    If Corporations are deemed the problem for moving offshore why don't people get together and boycott those corporations?

    I don't shop at Wal-Mart.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    We are in an internet age and you can educate people that the reason they're out of work is that corporation X dumped your jobs for foreign workers to save them money and make the board of directors hundred millionaires.

    Many of those people will never get it, internet or hammer over the head. As long as the person running for office is against abortion........that is how the majority of voters think so they won't be helping matters.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    People were angry over Gas prices so I suggested the same idea to target one gas station chain such as Chevron and no one goes to a Chevron for 3 months. If it's the only one in town fine - but in most major cities there are many choices - just skip them - send a message - next time it could be Texaco and it could be for a year. Scare them. The only way to change corporate thinking is money. Convince them that doing good will make them money - or negative reinforcement through boycott is the way to go.

    All people need to do is stop frivolous driving. Group several trips into one. Don't just drive around cause your bored. If it's all about supply and demand, lets create less demand. How many women do you see driving around every day in a giant SUV by themselves?
  • 08-30-2012, 04:23 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    ...
    All people need to do is stop frivolous driving. Group several trips into one. Don't just drive around cause your bored. If it's all about supply and demand, lets create less demand. How many women do you see driving around every day in a giant SUV by themselves?

    Yes, and to incentivize them, our nations need to adopt fossil fuel taxes that will raise the price of gas to a level were includes the "negative externalities", principally harm to the environment, pollution, and urban congestion.

    Practically speaking fossil fuel taxes will need to be phased in overtime but the process should start now.
  • 08-30-2012, 05:12 AM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    Worf, It is not a matter of Obama's war on the middle class, it's more an issue of every handout he sets up comes out of the middle class's pocket.

    When people like Romney making the money he does in his sleep pays 13% or less in taxes, and I pay closer to 28% where do you see the money coming from?

    Can you give some examples? And if you're speaking stimulus, did not Bush do the same? So I think we know what that was about.
  • 08-30-2012, 05:58 AM
    Hyfi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by frenchmon View Post
    Can you give some examples? And if you're speaking stimulus, did not Bush do the same? So I think we know what that was about.

    Who is going to pay more for health care so those mandated to get it do?

    Who is going to pay more for cars in 12 years because of his latest 54MPG rule?

    Who pays all the time in order for those less fortunate? The Middle Class always foots the bill while Billionaires find all the tax loopholes and never seem to pay their share in accordance to what the middle class pays.

    Flat Tax is the only fair way. No Loopholes, no special protection, no excuses.
  • 08-30-2012, 08:16 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    Who is going to pay more for health care so those mandated to get it do?

    Who is going to pay more for cars in 12 years because of his latest 54MPG rule?

    Who pays all the time in order for those less fortunate? The Middle Class always foots the bill while Billionaires find all the tax loopholes and never seem to pay their share in accordance to what the middle class pays.

    Flat Tax is the only fair way. No Loopholes, no special protection, no excuses.

    No loopholes, no special protections, no excuses -- and a progressive tax rate would be even better.
  • 08-30-2012, 08:42 AM
    Hyfi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor;386920 and [I
    a progressive tax rate[/I] would be even better.

    We already have that. The more wealthy you are, the less % of taxes you have to pay.
  • 08-30-2012, 09:24 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    We already have that. The more wealthy you are, the less % of taxes you have to pay.

    :lol::lol: ... well technically that's called "regressive" taxation.

    In other counties than the good ol' US of A, people cheat on their taxes, bribe officials and politicians, etc. There are no countries I know of where so much evasion is written into the code from the get-go.

    A big issue State-side is the capital gains rate of only 15% -- it's a gift to the Romney's of the land. As I understand, in some countries, such as Canada I believe, if you make your living making capital gains, then they're not capital gains but regular income and taxed as such.
  • 08-30-2012, 09:54 AM
    Hyfi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    :lol::lol: ... well technically that's called "regressive" taxation.

    In other counties than the good ol' US of A, people cheat on their taxes, bribe officials and politicians, etc. There are no countries I know of where so much evasion is written into the code from the get-go.

    A big issue State-side is the capital gains rate of only 15% -- it's a gift to the Romney's of the land. As I understand, in some countries, such as Canada I believe, if you make your living making capital gains, then they're not capital gains but regular income and taxed as such.

    Yep, that is because the people who write the Tax Codes are those with money and trying not to pay taxes on it.

    Below is a link to an NPR article and interview on Romney including some of the things he did to amass a 20 million dollar IRA by investing in the things that his company was putting under to make stockholders more money.

    As said earlier, he was the one who started the whole Tax Return issue and now does not want to follow thru on it.

    'Real Romney' Authors Dissect His Latest Campaign : NPR
  • 08-30-2012, 11:04 AM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post
    Who is going to pay more for health care so those mandated to get it do?

    Who is going to pay more for cars in 12 years because of his latest 54MPG rule?

    Who pays all the time in order for those less fortunate? The Middle Class always foots the bill while Billionaires find all the tax loopholes and never seem to pay their share in accordance to what the middle class pays.

    Flat Tax is the only fair way. No Loopholes, no special protection, no excuses.

    I dont know that Neil Borts flat tax is the way...I wish the rich a$$ people would pay there fair share. Stop blaiming Obama for this mess....it extends back well before he got in office.

    You where already paying for the scumb bag who could afford insurance but never bought it. Now I wont have to pay for him anymore.....grown a$$ peolple should be responsible for theres now they will.

    The car issue....good. I wont have to pay so much to fill my car....and then it sorta works out....less in gas more for the car. The way it is now... expensive a$$ car....expensive a$$ gas.

    I dont think I can blame Obama for the stupid a$$ tax problem...you know who to blame for that stupid a$$ crap.

    frenchmon
  • 08-30-2012, 11:24 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by frenchmon View Post
    I dont know that Neil Borts flat tax is the way...I wish the rich a$$ people would pay there fair share. Stop blaiming Obama for this mess....it extends back well before he got in office.

    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, "this mess" extends back to Ronald Reagan and his "supply side", "trickle down" economics. By this theory, if you bribe the rich -- the "job creators" -- they'd invest in new business and create jobs. Really? Then how come the median income stop growing about that time and decline in the George W. years. Most of that job creation was in China.

    Don't kid yourself: it wasn't Obama who began the "class warfare".
  • 08-30-2012, 11:30 AM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, "this mess" extends back to Ronald Reagan and his "supply side", "trickle down" economics. By this theory, if you bribe the rich -- the "job creators" -- they'd invest in new business and create jobs. Really? Then how come the median income stop growing about that time and decline in the George W. years. Most of that job creation was in China.

    Don't kid yourself: it wasn't Obama who began the "class warfare".

    I agree! This is the worst congress I have ever seen....and they all got dog whistles!

    I could have sworn I heard on the radio news that Apple has become the biggest company in the world....and 90% of their employees are over seas but their head quarters are here in the USA.....thats part of the problem with this good old US of A!
  • 08-30-2012, 11:45 AM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Don't kid yourself: it wasn't Obama who began the "class warfare"
    Any body who has been paying attention has seen what has happened in congress. Bills just dont get passed that would benefit the middle class. And they act like all poor people are lazy. The GOP all they do is lie......How in the hell can a car plaint close under Bush and Obama still gets the blame? And Romney is the biggest hipo out there! who in the hell are all these American People they pole every week that they say dont want health care? All the American People I know want it...and need it.
  • 08-30-2012, 01:00 PM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by frenchmon View Post
    .... And they act like all poor people are lazy. .....

    That poor people are lazy is fundamental tenet of conservative belief everywhere in the world, but nowhere more so than in the USA.

    Americans have a long-standing belief in individualism and personal initiative & hard work -- American is a land where anyone can succeed. The flip side of this coin is that those who happen not to are feckless & lazying.

    And then you added the "philosophy" of Ayn Rand, (to dignify her notions with that term), whereby greed & selfishness are high virtues, and what do you get? Alan Greenspan and Paul Ryan.
  • 08-30-2012, 02:34 PM
    frenchmon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    That poor people are lazy is fundamental tenet of conservative belief everywhere in the world, but nowhere more so than in the USA.

    Americans have a long-standing belief in individualism and personal initiative & hard work -- American is a land where anyone can succeed. The flip side of this coin is that those who happen not to are feckless & lazying.

    And then you added the "philosophy" of Ayn Rand, (to dignify her attitude with that term), where by greed & selfishness are high virtues, and what do you get? Alan Greenspan and Paul Ryan.

    Ryan is a flat out idiot! He lied about every topic last night. Oh I can't wait to see him in debate with Biden...that should be fun. But the sad part about this whole thing....this country has enough stupid people to put these good old boys stupid idiots in the WH....how on earth can you be so stupid to believe in different types of rape and only the the right kind of rape will fight off the sperm and not get the woman pregnant...yes Ryan also shared in that opinion., but is now try to recant....yeah real rape will fight off the sperm.....I guess they forgot about what happened during slavery.
  • 08-30-2012, 03:13 PM
    RGA
    1 Attachment(s)
    Going back the union argument - who do unions hurt? Oh right - massively wealthy businessmen and corporations. Who do they help? The bottom 99%
  • 08-30-2012, 04:52 PM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    Going back the union argument - who do unions hurt? Oh right - massively wealthy businessmen and corporations. Who do they help? The bottom 99%

    Don't get me wrong: I fundamentally agree. I would prefer that public sector unions (especially) moderate their demands during the current recession cum depression, if for no better reason that their "unreasonable" demands are being used by conservatives as a "wedge issue" to divide the union / non-union workers.
  • 08-30-2012, 11:29 PM
    RGA
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    Don't get me wrong: I fundamentally agree. I would prefer that public sector unions (especially) moderate their demands during the current recession cum depression, if for no better reason that their "unreasonable" demands are being used by conservatives as a "wedge issue" to divide the union / non-union workers.

    I guess but I often wonder about unreasonable demands as merely being a ploy by the elite to create a "false" advertised economy.

    I guess I need it explained to me hat there is limitless money to be spent in BC on Olympics, road builds for the rich (freeway to Whistler where only the rich can afford to go) and 50% salary increases for themselves within 5 years.

    Unions raise the bar for pay and benefits for competing shops or careers/jobs to follow. The place I worked for based my Accounts Payable salary increases on the "market" which included government workers (thank to statistician God for that because that's how I got annual 10% pay increases).

    The typical A/P job at non union shops was between $11-$15 an hour in the mid 90s. The A/P job at BC Housing was $19.07 an hour. Not sure where they came up with the .07 but whatever.

    I worked for Firestop, Seagate Software, NCompass Labs (bought by Microsoft the day I started working there) and a few others. Now the actual workload at BC Housing was higher and more demanding than the private sector positions - so you do considerably more actual work in public sector than private sector. I would also say the job is more "frustrating" in the public sector because they're zealots on double and triple checking everything and crossing every T and dotting every i. Private sector doesn't really have to live up to those standards just have to minimally meet enough standards to pass an audit should there ever be one.

    Still, the point is people would complain and say - the government worker gets paid more - and I would say - instead of complaining that you don't make as much as them - why not ask why your Rolls Royce driving company owner with his private jet isn't paying you the same? Or better yet - if the government worker has it so easy then why don't you quit and get a job in the government?

    At least in the government you get hired on merit not who you know. And if someone does hire someone on a "who you know" basis and they find out the person is immediately fired and everyone involved is also immediately fired. It happened in my dad's office - he worked for Veteran's Affairs - and a guy there hired his son in law and fixed the test results. It was found out - he was canned - the son in law of course was also canned - and the head of the department was canned because he knew and didn't do anything.

    Sexual harassment case also had zero tolerance. Man harassed a woman - she complained to the supervisor - who told her not to follow through with charges and he would do something - he didn't do something. After 30 years they fired the harasser and they axed him for not doing anything (enough) about it.

    Don't get me wrong - I hate BC Housing with a passion - the paperwork was obscene with the checking and rechecking and the multiple forms and the levels of sign off ability etc. In retrospect though at least there was less chance of crooked stuff going on - and if there was any there is a paper trail if the right people look for it.

    There used to be a saying where if you were a lazy butt you could go work in the government - but man by far was that the toughest Accounts payable job I had by a mile. Just trying to wade through their application process is no small feat.

    I looked at the teacher salary demand - 15% increase over 3 years. So 5% a year. I just don't see the problem with that - recession or not.
  • 08-31-2012, 02:34 AM
    thekid
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    Yes, and to incentivize them, our nations need to adopt fossil fuel taxes that will raise the price of gas to a level were includes the "negative externalities", principally harm to the environment, pollution, and urban congestion.

    Practically speaking fossil fuel taxes will need to be phased in overtime but the process should start now.

    We are going to have to make a choice regarding the use of gas for fueling automobiles. We are either going to develop alternative methods for fueling cars or we are going to make a cultural shift to mass transportation. I don't see the later occurring because of a variety of factors. The search for an alternative fuel for automobiles is going to have to be a public/private venture in my opinion. The market at the moment makes it too easy to discourage development of alternative fuels. You just have to look at the sales of the Prius when gas was over $4 and what they were once it dropped back down to below $3.
  • 08-31-2012, 06:59 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by thekid View Post
    We are going to have to make a choice regarding the use of gas for fueling automobiles. We are either going to develop alternative methods for fueling cars or we are going to make a cultural shift to mass transportation. I don't see the later occurring because of a variety of factors. The search for an alternative fuel for automobiles is going to have to be a public/private venture in my opinion. The market at the moment makes it too easy to discourage development of alternative fuels. You just have to look at the sales of the Prius when gas was over $4 and what they were once it dropped back down to below $3.

    This all true. People would flock to buy Prius if gas were $6/gal. This is exactly the effect a fossil tax would create. By the same token, if producers could get a $5/gal. equivalent for alternative fuels, they would flock to produce them.

    Culture can change people especially where there's economic incentive. When Henry Ford produced the $500 Model T, people flocked to buy them which in incentivized road construction and the whole suburban life style & culture of the '50s.