Speakers for Classical Music for Rotel RB 1070 (budget: upto 2k$)

[audio amateur]

Not if Florian does not reply, which I doubt he will

[Ajani]

Not if Florian does not reply, which I doubt he will

Oh that's lame... Guess I'll have to take a peek inside one of Pix's 'Plasma is Dead' threads to get my fill of AR battles....

[Florian]

Oh that's lame... Guess I'll have to take a peek inside one of Pix's 'Plasma is Dead' threads to get my fill of AR battles....

No use to argue, RGA is most likely single, spends as we know most of his time in audio shops but doesnt buy anything. Still in school, or just got out of school? Why argue with someone who doesnt have the money to buy the stuff in the first place. Hahaha

[Ajani]

No use to argue, RGA is most likely single, spends as we know most of his time in audio shops but doesnt buy anything. Still in school, or just got out of school? Why argue with someone who doesnt have the money to buy the stuff in the first place. Hahaha

&

Florian
I am single - don't get excited though because I don't swing that way.

That's what we've been waiting for!!!! lol

[blackraven]

Dev, check on the price of the Magnepan MG12's. They sell for $1,100 US. They are very good speaker and would put them on par with the B&W 683. I would rate them higher but you may find that you need a subwoofer with them for deep bass.

Other speakers to consider would be Monitor Audio RS6's and RS8's,
Vienna Acoustics and Triangle

[RGA]

Feaner

A democracy might be great in politics but a democracy doesn't make the view correct. 9 people can believe in God and 1 person can be an Atheist - and the Atheist may in fact be right. The fact that 9 people are delusional and brainwashed as children does not make them correct because they have 8 friends to gang up on the one. FAR FAR more audiophiles buy a boxed speaker over any panel loudspeaker - not even remotely close.

Soundhouds would be your heaven - you can listen to Martin Logan, Magnepan, Quad, (another panel maker I forget the name of) used Acoustat and Apogee from time to time. It amazes me that every person who works there owns umm not a panel. I have to agree with John Marks of Stereophile in a way(he's no fan of panels). Art Dudley who loves Quad the best (gee even he made the switch and I doubt there is a bigger panel fan around). Constantine Soo long time Apogee owner and could have any speaker used and a big space too - well...he switched from the panel too to a "shudder" boxed speaker - the same one Art Dudley switched to.

It's not how many own it it's who owns it based off what experience.

Most people buy Bose - more people buy Bose than Magnepan and all panel/planar makers combined past or present - does that mean Bose is "better" because more people like it.

Of course not RGA - the reason the Bose people love their Bose is probably because they have not heard Magnepan or ML or Quad. Get it? Most people who have heard Bose but not most of them have heard Magnepan - if they had then a lot of them would choose Magnepan (and so they should). The far smaller far less sold product is actually the better product. And so it goes.

[blackraven]

I agree with you Feanor, many people think that Magnepans don't sound good at low levels. The reality is that they sound pretty good at low levels but they come alive at louder levels. And by louder levels, I mean levels that you don't need to strain to talk over.

And for acoutic and classical music, I have not heard a speaker that compares under $2K, but there are so many speakers out there that I have not heard. I have heard speakers under $2K that sound better for rock an roll however. I really like Thiels and they would be my second choice in a speaker after Maggies but they cost more for the series 2 speakers than the 1.6's

[Feanor]

I agree with you Feanor, many people think that Magnepans don't sound good at low levels. The reality is that they sound pretty good at low levels but they come alive at louder levels. And by louder levels, I mean levels that you don't need to strain to talk over.

And for acoutic and classical music, I have not heard a speaker that compares under $2K, but there are so many speakers out there that I have not heard. I have heard speakers under $2K that sound better for rock an roll however. I really like Thiels and they would be my second choice in a speaker after Maggies but they cost more for the series 2 speakers than the 1.6's

Me neither, but RGA claims to have them all, (or near enough all not to matter). (I wonder how the Soundhound guys really feel about him?)

I listen to my 1.6s in small-medium sized room at average (not peak) volumes around 70 dB when I actively listen -- that's a level at which you don't have to strain to talk but certainly above background levels. At that level, the 1.6s don't sound "bad".

[RGA]

Feaner this is a relative issue. I would take the Maggie 1.6 over most boxed speakers under $2k for simple acoustic music and so i can't disagree with you or Blackraven on that point. If you want to say they're the best $2k speaker for that - that's fine by me - I have not heard everything either but at this point in time I would not disagree with either of you.

When it steps out beyond simple acoustic music then that changes quite drastically. And that is where several aspects come in for me with Magnepan - they dictate the music I can play, they dictate the amplifier I need, the volume level (though all speakers have this to some degree of course). These are "real" concerns and blackraven even noted this with Rock.

While you may "only" listen to Classical music not everyone else does. A speaker that can't handle the power of synthesizer or electric bass guitar etc is likely "also" insufficient at dealing with piano at a credible live piano presentation. For me the Magnepan's treble is a hindrance, position issues, power requirements, lack of resolution at low levels, serious compression when pushed and lack of visceral drive are notches in the weakness pile.

For some reason that comes across as "mean" to the speaker but it's my truthful evaluation of the product. And it "STILL" ranks as one of my personal favorites in the $2k and under pile - certainly in the top 4-5 which should tell you how highly I regard it for classical replay under $2k.

But the B&W 604S3 is around the same price and it has a pretty sizable advantage in every area the Magnepan 1.6 is deficient in. But it's going to lose with classical replay and that "holographic" sensation, added "unintentional" colouration, and its treble is hardly world class either. But for people who listen to amplified material (which is far more than people who listen to classical) then it's pretty obvious that it's a better choice "if" that is your musical taste. And no subs don't help because the issue with the 1.6 or other Magnepans is not bass depth - the 1.6 is actually pretty respectable in terms of depth - just not drive but that covers the entire frequency band. In classical - most of the time - the dynamic or "kind of bass" is simply considerably different.

Incidentally the AX Two suffers in part the same issues that the 1.6 suffers IMO as it is clearly more at home with acoustic instruments and less satisfying with harder amplified stuff that say a B&W 602S3 is not. In other words the 602S3 is a similar priced speaker and will play louder with more drive than the AX Two while the latter is better for Diana Krall or Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata than it will be at reproducing Aerosmith's greatest Hits.

Comparing the 4 of them then (Maggie 1.6 $2kCad / B&W 602S3/604S3 ($850/$2k) AX Two ($700Cad)
The AX Two doesn't have the holographic soundstage that the 1.6 possesses nor can it be used in a bigger room like the 1.6(not even close) nor does it have the bass depth of either the 1.6 or the 602S3 - nor does it have the quality of build construction - but it is a better performer at low volume (lot better) and it is the least expensive of the three and the bass while less of it sounds tonally more natural.

Trade-offs. The AX Two is about 80% of what the 1.6 does well and about 80% of what the 602S3 does best. But to me it's better balanced as an all rounder, easier to drive, better at low volumes, and is least expensive(but needs a small room - crossed off the list if the room is medium as it is a "nearfield" speaker).

Still If I listened to just classical I would choose the 1.6. If I only watched movies and like to play louder with a lot of rock I'd take the 602S3(/604S3) against the AX Two and 1.6 (given the prices).

None of them are even remotely the last word in the audio world but generally low volume superiority is handled better by higher efficient speakers and I'm surprised that even homer Maggie owners could really make this case with a straight face. That is unless you have not heard better at low volumes - and there are better for considerably less money at doing that task.

As for the Soundhounds guys - will you can make all the inuendos you wish but a lot of people have went to Soundhounds over the years based on my recommendations. They have maybe 8 guys working there including the owner. The thing is when you sell a lot of different brands you don't need to hard peddle any one brand. Remember they do SELL Magnepan which means at least "some" of their shoppers are buying them(and Sonus Faber or B&W) over Audio Note. Granted the last few posts were not as even handed because I put my opinion over too leaden much of the time.

The last time I was there a fellow who liked the AN E over the his panels said - "they remind me of my quads in the openness and speed department but they have real bass and hit harder and sound real" - But it seems to fall on deaf ears and some strange close minded view that "no box can better any panel" even when so many long time panel owners who hold that exact same view make the switch - and the switch is a one way direction. So naturally they're all incompetent's? I don't get the close minded view on this matter when the guys who hear it switch and the guys who don't are happy to blast away. You can lead a horse to water.......

[Feanor]

Feaner this is a relative issue. I would take the Maggie 1.6 over most boxed speakers under $2k for simple acoustic music and so i can't disagree with you or Blackraven on that point. If you want to say they're the best $2k speaker for that - that's fine by me - I have not heard everything either but at this point in time I would not disagree with either of you.

When it steps out beyond simple acoustic music then that changes quite drastically. And that is where several aspects come in for me with Magnepan - they dictate the music I can play, they dictate the amplifier I need, the volume level (though all speakers have this to some degree of course). These are "real" concerns and blackraven even noted this with Rock.

...

Well come to that, I quite willing to conceed that Magneplanars (and maybe other planars) aren't the ticket for rock music and the like. But the topic of this thread was speakers for classical music, so I have no hesitation about the MG 1.6QR. When the topic is what speakers for rock or the like, I have the good grace to keep my blab shut, period, much less talk about Maggies.

On the subject of Audio Note, I'd love to hear them. Fly me to Soundhounds and we'll listen to them all day up against Maggies and whatever else. Who knows? I might be a convert. Too bad I can't mail order a low cost model for US$550 with the option to return for refund -- that's how I got to hear Magneplanar MMGs and that's what sold me on Maggies. The MMG has distinct limitations but having heard them and the many, many reviews and recommendations for the MG 1.6, I had no hesitation about ordering them unheard and take a 6 hour run trip to Toronto to pick them up. If I were discontent with the MG 1.6, I might make the trip to just T.O. to hear ANs, but I'm totally content with the former.

[mlsstl]

At least part of the stress in this conversation seems to come from the common inability to imagine that anyone else's taste might differ from ours.

The reality is that we all put the sonic cues we listen for in a different order. "Punch" trumps a 3-D image for some and for others it is the opposite. Now take that one example and multiply it by dozens or even hundreds of variables and it is no surprise that people come to different conclusions when listening to the same speaker.

The subject is not much different than cars, comedians, art, movies or girls, ad infinitum. How does the debate conclude when you have one fellow who fancies brunettes arguing with another fellow who fancies blondes? They can get into a fistfight, or - imagine this - they could each walk away with their respective dates and everyone could enjoy themselves.

[blackraven]

Yep, we all have different tastes, that's why I try not to trash other people's opinions of audio equipment. I can only comment on what I have heard and give my opinions on what I like and dislike.

[frenchmon]

Yep, we all have different tastes, that's why I try not to trash other people's opinions of audio equipment. I can only comment on what I have heard and give my opinions on what I like and dislike.

A very wise man indeed!

frenchmon

[RGA]

MLSSTL

I have absolutely no problem with whether you prefer blondes to brunettes etc so long as before you make the comment you've actually SEEN a brunette first. I don't mind if you prefer Ace Venture to Schindler's List or Citizen Kane if you've actually watched all three of them.

What I have found is that a lot of people in my area reviewers who have listened to both agree with me - including owners of the other speaker. I have also met Maggie owners at Soundhounds who have been there several times and ONLY listen to their Maggies - I asked them if they heard the AN E and said no - "it's a box." Either the afraid to compare or they just want to remain in their little bubble.

Feaner

Yes but you missed part two of the equation - low volume - I would listen to the AX Two or with some positioning logistics the AZ Two with classical music at low volume over the Maggie 1.6. If the room was small the AX Two for sure. And pocket over a grand to buy a better amplifier or source.

The MMG return plan is a wonderful marketing scheme. They send you a $550 speaker and if you don't like it you return it - (if you do you must pay the shipping unless you upgrade). Now they know that anyone(read 99%) shopping for a $500 speaker don't have much money and more to the point don't have a very good stereo at home - likely some kind of HTiB set-up from wal-mart or a Bose Wave radio. They know that the MMG will clobber those set-ups - they also know that most people are lazy and won't want to go through the hassle of returning them. They also know that for those people who like them - really won;t like them enough and will if they do send them back pay more for a bigger model. And once again the person who has heard plenty of $200 Sony speakers at Future Shop in the wall-o-speakers probably have not heard very many if any good $2000 speakers. There is no "listening comparison" in room with such a scheme and without direct comparison - something is always better than nothing.

The return policy is in fact doable with most companies - the difference is Magnepan advertises it. Audio Note in England will come to your house, set-up the stereo for you and let you listen to it for weeks and months for you to decide. For Free and no shipping.

Audio Note dealers will ship you demonstration models for evaluation - if you like it then you place an order for a new one and wait in line. You'll pay the shipping - but like MMG if you buy the shipping will be covered in all likely-hood.

B&W offered a 6 month upgrade plan whereby you could upgrade to the higher speaker within 6 months with 100% return on what you paid. They may still do this.

Unfortunately there are no AN dealers in Toronto that could show you anything. AN Kits is in Ottawa and a big dealer in Manhatten is carrying them. Manhattan is a 10 hour drive from T.O I'm told. Bob Neil who also had Magnepans and Quads would be able to demo for you - he's in Amherst, Massachusetts. Bob Carries a fuller line and I know what he carries - the dealer in Manhattan I know nothing about.

[blackraven]

RGA, Magnepan also offers a 6 month upgrade plan with the MMG's.

You are obviously very biased to AN. Basically your saying that because some people you talked to prefer AN over Magnepan that they are better speakers. What about the people that you didnt talk too who preferred Magnepans?

Audio Perfection here in Minneapolis sells Magnepan, Sonus Faber and Wilson Audio among others http://www.audioperfection.com/galle...tName=Speakers and they feel Magnepans are the best speaker they sell.

So I guess AN speakers will be much better than Sonus Faber and Wilson Audio by your reasoning. The bottom line is that we all have different likes and dislikes. If we didn't there would be no need for the many different speaker manufacturers.

And as for Magnepan owner's not looking at box speakers- Many owners have gone through box speakers and know that they prefer the Magnepan or the Panel sound which is so different from a conventional speaker. There are many box speakers that I like and feel are excellent speakers, but none give the presentation that Magnepans do. Yes, many box speakers excel at something better than maggies. They may have better dynamic's or bass or treble or resolution, but Magnepans have a unique sound and they are not for every one (just like I believe AN speakers are not for every one). I love the huge sound stage and life like sound they give that many speakers cant reproduce.

[RGA]

RGA, Magnepan also offers a 6 month upgrade plan with the MMG's.

You are obviously very biased to AN. Basically your saying that because some people you talked to prefer AN over Magnepan that they are better speakers. What about the people that you didnt talk too who preferred Magnepans?

Clearly you are correct that there very well may be people who listened to both and preferred the Magnepan - but I can't say because I didn't talk to those people. But what I can say is that everyone who works there and has intimit experience with both brands - well every single one of them has an AN E. 8 out of 8 is not just a fluke - it's a pretty stupendous fluke if it is. And after listening to the Magnepan 20.1 with a mammoth front end for $14K and comparing it to the $7k AN E/LX HE with granted an equally but different mammoth front end there is just not one area not one not even close that the 20.1 wins in and I personally can;t see how any person with even mediocre hearing could possibly find otherwise. The guys who work all day and listen to them both all day - well they have the same opinion.

Audio Perfection here in Minneapolis sells Magnepan, Sonus Faber and Wilson Audio among others http://www.audioperfection.com/galle...tName=Speakers and they feel Magnepans are the best speaker they sell.

Well I have heard plenty of Sonus Faber and the Wilson Sophia. I can understand choosing a 3.6 over these. First Wilson is grossly overpriced for what you get. At $16k for the Sophia you could get arguably better and similar from Gershman Acoustics (X-1/Sub1) and IMO the latter sounds better for $5k. Sonus Faber is a darker richer sounding speaker - I like them but they sound "boxy" and there's no way a planar panel fan would go for Sonus Faber. Audio Note sounds nothing like either one of them - and that is a reason people are selling their panels for AN E's and not for Wilsons. The AN E is like the transparency you get from your panel but with real bass and drive and a more natural sense of timbre IMO of course. And that's comparing it to the Quad 2905 a vastly better speaker than any Magnepan.

So I guess AN speakers will be much better than Sonus Faber and Wilson Audio by your reasoning. The bottom line is that we all have different likes and dislikes. If we didn't there would be no need for the many different speaker manufacturers.

IMO yes the AN E/LX is better than the Wilson Sophia and the Sonus Faber Cremona - both speakers cost double the AN E/LX and I see no advantage in them. I would take the Quad 2905 over the Wilson Sophia and the Sonus Faber too BTW so I could see your dealer feeling the same. Though Soundshounds has a pretty darn good set-up with the Cremona and despite some boxyness I would still take them over the 20.1 or the B&W D800 which Soundhounds also carries.

And as for Magnepan owner's not looking at box speakers- Many owners have gone through box speakers and know that they prefer the Magnepan or the Panel sound which is so different from a conventional speaker. There are many box speakers that I like and feel are excellent speakers, but none give the presentation that Magnepans do.

Actually we're not too different and that's why I was salivating over ML and Quad years ago - against "conventional boxed speakers" I would take the Quad too - so I understand what it is that panel guys love, why they love them, and why they don't want to go back. But the Audio Note's are hardly conventional and neither is something like the Tannoy Westminster. The cabinet by most boxed speakers are used as a necessary evil that must be quashed out of the equation - Audio Note does the exact opposite of what virtually every other boxes speaker is doing. And gee that may be why an awful lot of panel owners make the switch. DR Cope was a long time Quad Maggie retailer who dropped both and became and AN distributor.

Why do you think I even bother arguing with some of you panel guys - I already know you have good taste and HUGE passion for this stuff. I am saying why not have virtually everything you like about your panels and then "also" have gains in 5 or 6 other areas that really bring it all together.

Yes, many box speakers excel at something better than maggies. They may have better dynamic's or bass or treble or resolution, but Magnepans have a unique sound and they are not for every one (just like I believe AN speakers are not for every one). I love the huge sound stage and life like sound they give that many speakers cant reproduce.

100% agree - you could still listen and still prefer the Magnepan or Quad. The Audio Note's present a different sense of stage and for some that could be a deal breaker. Also the fact that to get the best bass, frequency balance, staging they MUST be placed in corners - if you don't have corners the speakers will be "weakened" and for many corners are just not doable.

As two quick examples of panel guys
But maybe I am less credible because I have never actually owned a panel so
http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/S...rs/124418.html

Owner of Apogee
www.dagogo.com/AudioNoteAN-E-D.html

Art Dudley of Stereophile is a Quad989 owner and he also bought the AN E. You panel guys are the guys I'm talking to. I understand your complaints of boxes - I have them as well and that is why I suggest that "this" box may be the "box" for you. The AN E/Sec Signature is the best speaker I have heard in 20 years of audio. It does what I like about the the better panels and it does what I like the best about horns - wrapped up in one speaker of shockingly small size retaining a lot of the "ideal" point source ideal and "also" tube friendly. No of course they're not perfect - not the least coloured, won't play the absolute loudest, etc etc. But every loudspeaker has something to pick at.

But when the 1812 cannon goes off and the quad or Maggie completely misses the boat I always wonder why they're revered as a great classical speaker - they have no dynamic impact that horns possess - but horns are often honky shouty or just irritatingly bright. Still the have huge scale and visceral impact - why not get the best of both worlds and a choice of front ends from about 5 watts up? That is an exciting product and for me has been for years. I love the 2905 mind you but I have to weigh that they are $14k - the AN E or J is $5k up and ultimately bring more to the table than the 2905 for classical music but also other types of music. They don't look as nice, they're not conversation starters to impress friends.

I am saying keep an open mind until you listen if ever.

[Feanor]

...
But when the 1812 cannon goes off and the quad or Maggie completely misses the boat I always wonder why they're revered as a great classical speaker ....

Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture isn't exactly the essence of classical music. It's somewhat unusual in using cannons ...

Actually the 1812 is a mediocre piece of music at best -- just my opinion.

[mlsstl]

RGA wrote:

What I have found is that a lot of people in my area reviewers who have listened to both agree with me...

Clearly implicit in this and other statements of yours is that anyone who has a differing opinion is wrong. I think Audio Notes are fine speakers and never said otherwise. I happen to currently own a set of "boxes" myself - Spendors, so I clearly don't suffer a Maggie-only bias. However, you seem to be the one-note samba in this discussion.

[RGA]

RGA wrote:
Clearly implicit in this and other statements of yours is that anyone who has a differing opinion is wrong. I think Audio Notes are fine speakers and never said otherwise. I happen to currently own a set of "boxes" myself - Spendors, so I clearly don't suffer a Maggie-only bias. However, you seem to be the one-note samba in this discussion.

Okay Remove the name Audio Note AN E and replace it with Tannoy Westminster or Kensington. The AN's are not the only one's I feel this way about. But the Tannoys are more expensive and requires bigger rooms.

And yes it sounds one note but that was my point - that is why the 1.6 is one of the best $2k speakers and why the Quad is probably in my top 3. I have not found much that beat them in my opinion which is high praise for both Magnepan and Quad. I don't like the 20.1 but I do like the 1.6 and MG12 the two I feel are the best values int he line. For me it would be AN E or J(which is essentially the same speaker for a smaller room), Quad 2905 and Tannoy Westminster.

So yeah of course if I am recommending something I think is better than a Quad 2905 then the list is pretty damn small. There may be some others I am not thinking about currently and some have some promise but have not heard them enough to be sure.

Anyway, the best suggestion I should have made was "try the Magnepan 1.6" at the volume you want and determine if it will satisfy."

I apologize to the moderators and the original poster for getting this off topic and for offending anyone's choices. Good luck in the speaker hunt.

[blackraven]

I'm always open to box speakers. I heard the top of the like Salk speakers at Frank Van Alstines house and they sounded better than my 1.6's. But I still prefer the presence and live sound of the Maggies. I could however, easily live with the Salks.

I certainly don't consider myself a Panel only guy.

[GMichael]

Sniff sniff .... A good old fashion Flo vs RGA (panels vs AN) Donnybrook? I haven't seen one of these in years! You guys are so great to do this for us again. Oh the memories.

Move over Ajani. Got anymore of that popcorn?

[Ajani]

Sniff sniff .... A good old fashion Flo vs RGA (panels vs AN) Donnybrook? I haven't seen one of these in years! You guys are so great to do this for us again. Oh the memories.

Move over Ajani. Got anymore of that popcorn?

Yep... here you go.... Just don't give Rich any... for some reason every time he dips his hand in the bag, The Popcorn gets extra 'buttery'...

[RGA]

"Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture isn't exactly the essence of classical music."

Agreed

I suppose my issue is that a speaker that can do Sarah McLachlan's "Silence" is an important thing for a speaker to be able to do and do it believably - the Quad 2905 and 1.6 for me don't. And it is the macrodynamics where they both simply get easily beaten on. Classical music requires a fuller breadth here as well and if it can't do the synthesizers of Sarah McLachlan then I'm not exactly sure why anyone would think they could do the Saint-Saens or numerous other pieces of music.

Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata is Musically better reproduced on the AN E than the Magnepan 20.1. Box or no box - one piano sounds more like a piano than a ribbon hiss. But like I said - 99% of people can't audition one - so listen to the Maggie and if it works great. I still like the 1.6 better than 95% of the competition and unfortunately the one's I prefer you are unable to confirm in your area - so we all base our decisions on what is available to us.

Florian
I am single - don't get excited though because I don't swing that way.

[Florian]

"Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture isn't exactly the essence of classical
Florian
I am single - don't get excited though because I don't swing that way.

Doesnt suprise me at all that your single. I have a girlfriend since over a year, but the way you are it is really no suprise that your single. No girl wants a poor schoolboy who only talks about audio in a forum anyways.

[RGA]

Doesnt suprise me at all that your single. I have a girlfriend since over a year, but the way you are it is really no suprise that your single. No girl wants a poor schoolboy who only talks about audio in a forum anyways.

I find it rather disturbing that you qualify people's worth by monetary means and whether they "currently" are in a relationship. BTW I finished university several years ago. I am a fully qualified teacher (and teaching) as well as an audio reviewer.

Ooops!! I forgot who I was talking to. And I so promised myself not to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.