Speakers for Classical Music for Rotel RB 1070 (budget: upto 2k$)

[audio amateur]

I find it rather disturbing that you qualify people's worth by monetary means and whether they "currently" are in a relationship. BTW I finished university several years ago. I am a fully qualified teacher (and teaching) as well as an audio reviewer.

Ooops!! I forgot who I was talking to. And I so promised myself not to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

haha I was thinking of that too..
Don't take it too personally either, Florian surely was in that situation not so long ago
However, the situation definitely applies to me

[Feanor]

...
Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata is Musically better reproduced on the AN E than the Magnepan 20.1. Box or no box - one piano sounds more like a piano than a ribbon hiss. But like I said - 99% of people can't audition one - so listen to the Maggie and if it works great. I still like the 1.6 better than 95% of the competition and unfortunately the one's I prefer you are unable to confirm in your area - so we all base our decisions on what is available to us.
...

This moring I listened to a couple of versions of the 'Moonlight' sonata, (No. 14, Op. 27), by Alfred Brendel and Mikhail Pletnev. I was reminded (yet again) that that the piano is a percussion instrument. I wasn't at all dissatisfied with the sound from my system (including the MG 1.6). However a person like yourself who values PRaT above all might prefer a speaker that delivers more of the "snap" and "punch" than Magneplanar, and I don't doubt that includes AN.

But that underscores the importance of the type of music you listen to and personal preference. I listen to chamber music most of all, but also to large-scale choral and orchestral works; I value transparency, imaging, and soundstage above PRaT. Nothing puts that string quartet in the room with you like Magneplanar.

[RGA]

However a person like yourself who values PRaT above all might prefer a speaker that delivers more of the "snap" and "punch" than Magneplanar, and I don't doubt that includes AN.

But that underscores the importance of the type of music you listen to and personal preference. I listen to chamber music most of all, but also to large-scale choral and orchestral works; I value transparency, imaging, and soundstage above PRaT. Nothing puts that string quartet in the room with you like Magneplanar.

First I don't want to get lumped into "believing" one silly audiophile term over another. Music is not about soundstage nor is it about imaging, or for that matter transparency or PRaT. These are terms people like and reuse and they've become hoared words because they get thrown around for EVERY single piece of audio equipment on the market today.

As a reviewer I understand why people like the words and writing it is often hard not to use them. The careful reader however may be able to pick up on what good audio writers are actually talking about.

Take Paul Messenger's reviewer of the AN E - this is a speaker that a panel of listeners chose in blind auditions as best in its class several years ago and they ended up buying the speaker as a reference for their magazine. But WITHIN the same review Paul called the speaker transparent, coloured, true to the recording, but not the best soundstaging and yet differentiated the staging better??? You as a reader could pull anything you wanted from the review - and Paul maybe the best reviewer at that magazine.

It's not his fault but many speakers throw a BIG soundstage whether the recording has a big soundstage or not. The AN E will have a singer left center on a Diana Krall disc and way over to the right on say a Madonna or Kathleen Battle album. The point is most speakers will place the same stamp across all three artists and it may be "nice" and "neat" to have a huge stage but the one that differentiates the best is the speaker doing its job the best. I know of only one dealer who sells Magnepan and Audio Note in the same store - everyone working there prefers the AN E for classical music - it was "designed" for classical music. The designer (L.L. Beranek) himself is a world renowned Opera House designer for heaven sake. It gives NOTHING to any Magnepan or any Panel I have heard so far(this is I STRESS - my OPINION). I'm not telling anyone what to like and especially what to buy. I say go audition one preferably in the same room and I'll let them decide.

My opponents always seem to make personal attacks and get defensive over panels - what may I ask are you all afraid of? Surely if you had nothing to worry about with your belief system then letting people audition is not a worry. Something deep down is bothering your sensibilities or "faith" in panels to be ripping stuff you have not heard.

The reality is discussing a product that no one here as actually bothered to listen to is trying to convince someone that a Blackberry is a wonderful tasting fruit with people who have no blackberries in their area and already have decided that oranges can't be beat.

And what is even worse is that even if you did listen to one and you actually really wanted to buy one you'd be on a 6 month to 2 year wait list(even the dealer's can't get any). They can't keep up with the demand as it is so it's probably better off to go with Magnepan - they're always in stock and there are piles and piles that come up on audio selling sites used at a bargain.

Again I'm not trying to convince people to "buy" anything. I simply have heard both and in my experience and opinion I believe the AN E/LX HE to quite dramatically outperform the Magnepan 20.1 for half the price. It's an opinion people - this is not the end of the world, the sky is not falling just because a bunch of reviewers and salesman prefer a boxed speaker over panels - just as it won't crumble because some people prefer those same panels to those same boxed speakers.

The thread was about good performers of classical at low volume on the cheap - my suggestion is the AX Two or used AN K or AN J or a new Kit E.

[theaudiohobby]

Take Paul Messenger's reviewer of the AN E - this is a speaker that a panel of listeners chose in blind auditions as best in its class several years ago and they ended up buying the speaker as a reference for their magazine.

err.....seems the passage of time has blurred your recollection of facts, HiFiChoice occasionally uses review panels, however the AN E did not go thru this process.

IMO, most audio note speaker models are poor choices for orchestral recordings, both the AN K and AN-J suffer typical small speaker limitations i.e. dynamically constipated in the bass. AN J is too lean for my taste. The AN E is basically an overpriced speaker, so much so that I know of no dealer than carries it in the UK, AN's home country.

Man..there is an awful lot of name dropping going on here, I thought Peter Snell designed the AN E who is L.L. Beranek? renowned where? in his back garden

[theaudiohobby]

who is L.L. Beranek? renowned where? in his back garden

Goofed on that one

[RGA]

err.....seems the passage of time has blurred your recollection of facts, HiFiChoice occasionally uses review panels, however the AN E did not go thru this process.

IMO, most audio note speaker models are poor choices for orchestral recordings, both the AN K and AN-J suffer typical small speaker limitations i.e. dynamically constipated in the bass. AN J is too lean for my taste. The AN E is basically an overpriced speaker, so much so that I know of no dealer than carries it in the UK, AN's home country.

Man..there is an awful lot of name dropping going on here, I thought Peter Snell designed the AN E who is L.L. Beranek? renowned where? in his back garden

Yes but you already lied about OWNING the AN K. And it is obvious you've never heard them because only the complete tone deaf could draw a conclusion that the AN J or E were dynamically constipated when what - your speaker of choice is B&W (in your head to head assessment of the AN K J AND E against &W standmounts - what were your assessments?

What gear, where, and when did you audtion the AN E directly against the B&W (and which model where and when).

Even the guys designing the B&W's agree. And you were allowed to meet them in person to confirm that it wasn't BS. But you decided you could not handle that B&W designers thoughts that the AN's were better. You could not handle that B&W asked Audio Note for "help" in making their speakers better.

Hi-Fi Choice has had at least three reviews of AN E speakers and 1 AN J and 1 AN K - 2 AN E and the AN J were blind auditions (not sure of the AN K) and the latest AN E was subjective sighted. Why do another blind audition when it's already been done?

AN has several dealers in the UK and they will come to your house and set it up for you which is better since most of the dealers in England are lousy for showing equiment properly. The advantage in Canada and the US is space so it's not all cramped so you can actually listen to one stereo in one room not speakers with 9 other pairs in the same cramped room. You were given the free in home audition but because of your pre listening biases - you chose not to.

There are dealers in West Sussex, Buckinghamshire, Cornwall, and others not yet listed on their website (they are slow at that).

Arguably the two highest end dealers in the entire United States has them - Audio Federation - who could carry anything on the planet chose Audio Note and also became their distributor. No they are not hoared out to any putz who opens a shop merely to sell boxes. AN made that mistake and pulled out of such places.

And no Peter Snell did not design the speaker cabinets - and if you knew anything about audio engineering like you claim to - you would know who Leo Beranek is since he sighted by virtually every single textbook on acoustics and loudspeaker design for the last 70 years.

To Others - let's just put it to bed - if you have not heard it - go listen and if you can't ignore AN because if you can't audition then all of it is blabber and meaningless anyway - never buy any audio piece without a good audition.

All those on the West coast - by all means don't believe me - go to Soundhounds on Pandora avenue in Victoria - BC - it is a great holiday destination often sighted as one of the three best vacation spots in the world - so don't just come for the audio audtion - you can go fishing whale watching camping hiking - get a taste of England without the pollution or congestion or pick pockets and it's a great jump off point to Vancouver, Tofino, and Seattle. You can ski, waterski, and enjoy the mountains and lakes that are some of the best in the world.

Then get a supreme audition - bring your hardest hitting music full scale classical music (wagner if you absolutely must) - Saint Saens organ pieces, Beethoven's 9th - spend the day - Tell them RGA (Richard) sent you and tell them I recommended their great cappucino. Have them let you audtion the B&W D800 - their prize speaker with the Diamond Tweeters, Quad 2905 - Quad's best panel speaker, Magnepan 20.1, Nice Sonus Faber Cremona's, top of the line Sim Audio, Bryston's new CD player, top of the line Linn gear, and yes the AN E/LX HE with those 8-15 watt tube amps. Go across the street and listen to some Grant Fidelity if the AN gear is too expensive.

Don't let the people here, including me, sway you. And don't let the sales guys sway you either - just because all the guys who owned panels or B&W sold them and all of them bought AN's is according to the Audio Hobby because they like constipated dynamics and distortion. By all means test his theory. I will be very happy to read your your results. You will be very pleased to hear some of the bigger hitters together and get a good experience listening to some premier panel loudspeakers against what presuably TAH believes is the best speaker company in B&W, and hey Sonus Faber is no slouch either. Donuts and coffee on me if your in Nanaimo (1.5 hours up island from Victoria).

Glad to talk audio or anything else.

Anyway, this is a long post - I am currently on vacation in Koh Samui, Thailand so my replies will be spotty.

[GMichael]

I think they made up. When's the next show?

[Ajani]

I think they made up.

ALREADY???

[bobsticks]

I think they made up. When's the next show?

Yeah, not so much....

[sallysue]

A lot of good suggestions here. Can I put in a vote for Focal?

Chorus 816VB = JM Lab

The voicing on some of the towers is very nice. The looks may or may not be to your liking but they are nice speakers and in your price range.

[Geoffcin]

This reminds me of the old unmoderated days of AR.

RGA please refrain from calling fellow listees liars. Personal attacks are a violation of TOS rules. Another outburst and I will be forced to lock the thread.

[theaudiohobby]

Hi Geoffcin, could you ask RGA to reword his posts accordingly. thanks.

[RGA]

E-Stat

It's on AA - It's ok Peter Qvortrup is aware of The Audio Hobby and we've been through this before.

Geofcin - Maybe you could clear something up - what is the board policy - it's ok if people tell untruths about their experiences very possibly slandering manufacturers and people's livelyhoods, but it's never ok to call them on it? So are these people allowed to go unmolested on this internet forum?

Geofcin - I understand why you or the board would have a policy like this but there should be a little more thought put into this - namecalling is one thing, asking someone for simple verification is not name calling.

I am actually quite surprised by theaudiohobby because despite the argument here he is someone who purprots that he so much values evidence truth and backing up claims. I am shocked and surprised that such an individual who made these comments would run to the moderators whenever someone asked him to provide minimilist evidence to back up very possibly legally binding slanderous remarks about a manufacturer on an audio forum:

"I have no time to waste, the onus is on Peter Qvotrup to provide some supporting evidence to back up his comments. If he can't, well..." (theaudiohobby May 27, 2004)

"is it wrong to ask for data to back up the claim? This is an objective assertion that can be readily proven with back up data.

So the issue is not whether I liking any speaker per se, it is about providing data to back up an objective rebuttal." (ThaAudioHobby May 28, 2004 AA)

So I find it rather curious that the poster who wrote the above would immediately run to the moderators when I am merely asking the same questions that he asks.

Was I supposed to go to a moderator? No because he has the right to ask for proof of a "claim" and he can then "believe" the person to be telling a falsehood until such time as the evidence is provided.

Geofcin I may be missing something in the logic here and I'll be happy to acknowledge my mistake in my logic on this matter. If I am in error I do oppologise.

Ultimately, if you wish I can accept his ownership of the AN K/B which was $600 new, and was in actual fact a Snell KII with a rebadged AN logo - this model was used in the first prodcution run - an entirely different cabinet, woofer, tweeter manufacturers, wiring, caps and had dacron. Since I've never heard the AN K/B it's possible it sounded the way he says it did. The AN J/L sounds quite strikingly different from the AN J/Spe so I suppose I can give him the benefit of the doubt. But if you ever extend TAH and olive branch he beats you over the head with it which is why I rarely bother anymore.

[theaudiohobby]

You have defamed me RGA. Here are some photos of the Audio Note K/B taken prior to their sale on ebay. One of them with a serial number 529.






What's your next move? I also note that you decided against posting any links to any previous thread.

[Ajani]

You have defamed me RGA. Here are some photos of the Audio Note K/B taken prior to their sale on ebay. One of them with a serial number 529.






What's your next move? I also note that you decided against posting any links to any previous thread.

Good Response....

[RGA]

Ajani - Well it will take me some time to track down the serial number - Audio Note uses 4 digit numbers not 3 digit numbers but 'll give him the benefit of the doubt that this was in fact his loudspeaker and not just a picture from someone else. (The quotes are on Audio Asylum speaker forum - do a search for the audiohobby and Audio Note - there are simply far too many for me to look through again - so any interested party who completely has no life can go back and dig.

I still wonder how if he says there are no dealers in the UK (factually incorrect) that he could have heard the AN J and AN E directly against other speakers? Your example is a good one - where you listened - evidence the dealer carries the items etc. This was not a difficult request but the simple always seems difficult for TAH. Get to the point.

But here I'll end it - I'll "presume" that TAH has listened to every audio product known to man and therefore all Audio Note products in depth correctly set-up and directly against all his favorites. There you go tah - the ultimate auditioner of gear - that is what you want - for your opinion to carry some sort of weight.

Unfortunately for you I suppose, if you thought about it - all advertising is good advertising including these exchanges on internet forums - all you end up doing is helping Audio Note sell more audio products by generating further curiosity about them. And I like them a lot and wanted just that - help the little guy get more attention in a sea of heavey weights - for people to go out and give them an audition - so I thank you for spreading the word. Great reviews by all the print and online publications - and naysayers ranting on internet forums - helps create a buzz.

Enjoy your beloved Elac - ir is it now a Genelec - opps I forgot you went to Quad - wait wait you loved those but now you hate them - so what flavour is it this month B&W - well I dunno that was three weeks ago surely you have moved on. What is the new TAH best loudspeaker you have currently? No you don't have to answer. Whatever you currently own is always the state of the audio art until the next speaker.

Would you hold off for a while though because AN can't keep up with orders and if the backlog increases it will take me longer to get my stuff from them.

So yes - Audio Note is bad - don't go listen - please for heaven sake just buy whatever TAH tells you to buy. You'll be happier for it - you'll certainly go through more Ebay and AGON sales than you ever dreamed of - and really theaudiohobby says it all - it's a hobby - buy sell buy sell buy sell. That is the point of a home audio system!

[audio amateur]

RGA, I reckon you should ask for free stuff from AN. I don't believe there's another man that advertises like this for them!

[theaudiohobby]

Ajani - Well it will take me some time to track down the serial number - Audio Note uses 4 digit numbers not 3 digit numbers but 'll give him the benefit of the doubt that this was in fact his loudspeaker and not just a picture from someone else. (The quotes are on Audio Asylum speaker forum

zoom in RGA, it's 529, you've have already overplayed your hand.

[Ajani]

Hmmm... this thread has taken an interesting turn.... I thought Flo Vs RGA was going to be the showdown, but clearly it is more RGA vs theaudiohobby (or it would be if one of them hadn't run for the mods)....

RGA - It would be helpful if you could find that quote/link from AA where theaudiohobby claimed to have owned Audio Notes.... it would help establish your claims against him

theaudiohobby - Up to this point, you really haven't denied RGA's claims. You've merely expressed annoyance and then called the mods... If you never claimed to own Audio Notes on the AA forum, then the easiest thing to do is deny it... Leave it to RGA to back up his accusations..

I really don't think we need the mods to block this debate - we just need to tone it down with some facts...

RGA calling someone a liar is 'bad' but only if it's not true (and I don't think anyone can tell from reading this thread whether tah is a liar or if RGA is off his meds).

What RGA seems to be calling for is just something to backup tah's claims that he has experience with Audio Note speakers. Something like this (which really is my opinion and is what happened):

The Magnepan MG12 Speakers are easily the worst $1K+ pair of speakers I've ever heard. I listened to them, with a friend, in early 2007 at Audio Excellence in Richmond Hill Ontario. They were setup in the upstairs listening room and driven by all McIntosh electronics. The speakers were at least 3 feet from the rear wall and a similar distance from the side walls with I'm guessing about 8 feet in between them... and I was about 8 feet from the speakers in the listening chair... I listened to at least 2 of my favorite songs (Billie Jean and Hotel California) and found that the Maggies sounded just plain wrong... they sounded confused and unable to present the music in a satisfying way... The Salesman quickly suggested that I try a pair of Revel Performa M22s on a Musical Fidelity A3.5 amp & CD combo instead (that was at the other end of the same listening room), as he said that I had the 'wrong type of music for the Maggies'... The Revels succeeded in getting my toes tapping and stopped the head scratching I was doing while the Maggies were playing.

I haven't given away any personal info in that story, but I have given enough info that someone could easily do a fact check on whether the dealer exists, sells Maggies, has an upstairs listening room, has/had those combos setup in that room etc.. So just enough info to show that I know what I'm talking about...

So back to the Maggies: they were driven by quality electronics and appeared to be well setup... so I'll take the salesman's word that it was just my choice in music that was the problem... What that tells me is that Maggies are not for me... if they can't sound good with my favorite songs, then I could care less how well they present a single violin or a female vocal...

[blackraven]

Those speakers certainly look like AN speakers from the rear-

http://dood.ca/2007/04/11/review-audio-note-an-k-spe/

[RGA]

Dear TAH -

You once told me - "get overyourself" - after a night's sleep I think you were correct - I need to "get over myself" so I will not ask for any of those things like ISP addresses, links to ebay acocounts to be sure the ebay seller was you, or where you auditioned the AN E, or that when you say there are no dealers in the UK but there are, because in the end "point in fact" you are entitled to you opinion. My Arrogance and Ego on this matter has gotten the better of me, I must admit.

I presume that my opinion is the "right" opinion. And of course it is "right" for me and I simply must allow that it may not be "right" for you. Indeed, looking back at the exchange on AA - with your passionate stance for a "brilliant" sound you held for Elac I now must admit that you and I simply do not hear the same things when we are listening to audio equipment. I heard Elac in South Korea (Yongsan statiion in a mega high end complex second or third floor) over a year after that exchange. Sometimes timing is everything. So it is clear to me that because you liked that speaker so much and my audition was pretty much the ploar opposite that well we hear things completely differently - and it is entirely plausible in fact likely that if the Elac sound is one you held with such high esteem that the AN K would not. I doubt the two would really hold a water with the same individuals.

Geofcin has not responded but I see it now - it really makes no difference whether I believe you or not or in fact that you've heard it or not, or in fact that you heard it and didn't like it.

Theaudiohobby - I'll take you at your word on this matter and operate on good faith with an apology for implying that you did not really audition the Audio Note products you have claimed to audition.

Blackraven
You have posted a link of a guy who bought the AN K - Nelson is a very nice young man and I spent several hours listening to his AN K in his room and in fact can't say I disagreed with what I heard. In his room with his gear the speaker was eaisly the brightest of the lot leaning edgy - still open fast and tight but not particularly dynamic and not bass strong - I would use the word ultra-lean - though there was no irritating ringing or anything - it just didn't have any drive or in room pressure that I got in my room. In my room I had followed what the manufacturer told me to do - thus, I had them in corners in a small with no other speakers in the room, anbgled in so the tweeters fired a meter in front of my head with my head below the tweeters on sand/leadshot filled stands coupled with blu-tac. I was fascinated in fact to hear the AN K in a very large open room with vauleted ceiling placed 5 feet into the room directly beside Gershman Acoustics speakers on stands higher than recommended with 200 watt high damping factor Solid State power amps (oddyssy). I was actually a little impressed at how good they performed considering that this is just about as bad a set-up as one would put the AN K in.

What is interesting is that if the theaudiohobby had heard them, I suspect he would be shocked and dispayed because in his audions he found the exact polar opposite of how he described the the AN K/B which paraphrasing was rolled off in the treble but not bright.

I have tried the AN K/Spe with Bryston, Arcam, Sugden, Audio Note, Audio Refinment, Linn, ASL, Marantz(a receiver), Oddyssy, Sonic Impact, Sim Audio, and Rotel. Have I achieved the result that Nelson got - and have I achieved the one theaudiohobby got? Well I did get the lean sound in other combinations and rooms - I have not got the result the audiohobby got - but then I have not heard the AN K/B. And to be fair having heard the AN E/D and the AN E/Spe with the differences in wiring and cabinet materials - I can certainly gleam a degree of insight into TAH's audition of the K/B and K/Spe The copper wired mdf/chipboard models versus the ply/silver wired variants does show a darker presentation with the former.

Theaudiohobby and fellow forumers
So again I opologise for not "getting over myself" and not accepting the views that run or ran counter to my own. I pride myself in being an incredibly open minded person in the sense that I am liberal to quite a large degree on what people choose to do in their own life. Although I do have a Richard Dawkins athiest zealot streak in me when it comes to religion.

Again I opologise for my comments and inuendos to TAH and for allowing my personal preference for something to be held as gosepl and to assume, quite arrogantly, that everyone must share the same preference as me or it is they that must have been dropped on their head at a yound age. Indeed reading myself here I come across as those guys who come to my door with the pamphlets telling me to believe or go to hell for all eternity (indeed amusingly enough is reminiscent of the "are you on the road to audio hell?" argument) - the exact people I hide behind my couch from when they come knocking so they'll go away.

[theaudiohobby]

You once told me - "get overyourself" - after a night's sleep I think you were correct - I need to "get over myself" so I will not ask for any of those things like ISP addresses, links to ebay acocounts to be sure the ebay seller was you,

There is nothing stopping you from asking, why stop now? By the way, you have chosen a lousy time to get over yourself, to do so after pointedly and repeatedly accusing me of lying smacks of very lousy timing.

or where you auditioned the AN E, or that when you say there are no dealers in the UK but there are, because in the end "point in fact" you are entitled to you opinion

Nice sleight of hand, when did I ever say I had auditioned the AN E, care to point to any post anywhere where I made that claim. Secondly, I never said Audio Note had no dealers in the UK, I said "I do not know any dealers that carry the AN E in the UK" big difference which happens to be the reason I have not listened to the AN E as my closest Audio Note dealer (Noteworthy Audio) did not carry it.

[RGA]

There is nothing stopping you from asking, why stop now? By the way, you have chosen a lousy time to get over yourself, to do so after pointedly and repeatedly accusing me of lying smacks of very lousy timing.

Nice sleight of hand, when did I ever say I had auditioned the AN E, care to point to any post anywhere where I made that claim. Secondly, I never said Audio Note had no dealers in the UK, I said "I do not know any dealers that carry the AN E in the UK" big difference which happens to be the reason I have not listened to the AN E as my closest Audio Note dealer (Noteworthy Audio) did not carry it.

Again I am sorry - you mentioned that the AN E was overpriced and thus because you are pretty diligent about not opining on things you have not heard naturally I assumed you auiditioned it. You mentioned you heard a speaker at a friends and I thought you were talking about the AN E since the AN E was what was being discussed previously and mostly in the thread. Please if you can help me out in the future if people are discussing the AN E it would help that if you make comments on the sound that you make it clearer that it was not the E you hear but you are commenting on the AN K or J and "inferring" from that experience what the E sounds like - certainly you may feel that the AN E is overpriced without auditioning but givent he thread it certainly makes it appear that you auditioned it. Lots of people love the E and don't love the J incidentally and that is why looking back it was not clear to me.

However, I will endevour not to skim read in the future but I am on holiday and trying to spend as little time on this as possible and should have read more carefully and or checked for clarification. If I had simply asked "have you heard the AN E" I would have prevented the whole thing. Again my error.

[audio amateur]

opining

Is that actually a word?

[Ajani]

Is that actually a word?

Yep.. it is...