The Speaker Hunt Nears an End

[frenchmon]

Just as I described frenchmon, the Apollo just sounds cleaner, smoother, and better able to reveal small details because it's not as congested. Frankly, I was quite shocked the first time I realized just how much of a difference the source can make. The CA is staying put though, as it is going to play BR, DVD-A, and SACD discs. I would never expect it to beat a dedicated CD player with Redbook anyway.

I already own the Exposure. Will work it in sometime in the next couple of weeks. I just want to listen to the 8000S/Apollo a bit more before I do. Then hopefully I can make a call and sell some of this stuff already!

Sell? Put it in a second system or put it away for a rainy day when you really need the money.

[YBArcam]

Well you need to talk to Kal Rubinson...because he is a reviewer who has a pair in his system. I also know those who sell them down in Carolina and also own them. From reading your postings between the lines... you make it sound like no one likes them....and we all know that's far from the truth. They have a large following in may places....here is one such place.http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=559431

I just read a review of the Usher BE-718 on Soundstage, and Doug Schneider mentions there that he owns a pair of Signature S2s. So yes, it does happen!

As for sell or keep, point taken! I'll think about it. There are always more responsible things to put the money towards, however.

[frenchmon]

I just read a review of the Usher BE-718 on Soundstage, and Doug Schneider mentions there that he owns a pair of Signature S2s. So yes, it does happen!

As for sell or keep, point taken! I'll think about it. There are always more responsible things to put the money towards, however.

I'm not surprised. Paradigm is a good product. And the Signature series has a very good sound. Every body dont want a laid back speaker. Some like a more lively sound. Just like all speakers you either like them or you like something else better. But we all get what sounds best to us and what can fit our budget. As I said before...they have a large following. Thanks for the information.

I've sold or got rid of some audio gear I wish I still had now. One such piece I had years ago that got a way was a 4 tract Pioneer reel to reel. I wish I still had that thing.

[vlastoc]

Well thank you Vlastoc...how do you like the Vento in comparison to the Ergo series?

Hi frenchmon,

you know...that's hard...I owned Ergo 700, which is a little older model than Vento or your GLE. But anyway I used Ergo 700 with NAD 320BEE amplifier, which was not that good match. Too bright, present mids and highs. Of course a some music sounded very good by this combination, especially drums...and so on.... Then I sold that NAD and never heard it together with Vento 807. The NADs, which I'm using now, I used only shortly with Ergos, so I can't declare result from direct comparison.

But here are some my experiences and comparisons:

- I think Ergo models are I more present, detailed, may be more exact and more neutral than LE, but they are quite difficult to match with good amplifier to tame them (I would say some good Marantz or Denon is suitable for them).

- LE series seemed to me less precise, but somehow more musical, more consistent..I don't know...I could not say, which is better..LE or Ergo.
Anyway, Canton LE 107 sounded better with NAD 320BEE.

Of course..I don't know the GLE lines and newer Ergos, there could be a different situation.

- My Ventos seem to be a next step far from LE or Ergo. I think, they are very well balanced, the highs are smoothed, they have very musical, really good speakers. I would say, my NADs' are not that good partners to them, I 'm considering to change the amplifiers.

[YBArcam]

I compared the Apollo to the 2010s2 CD player. IMO they are both of comparable quality but the presentations were different. The 2010s2 had greater emphasis on bass and just seemed to rock more. It had a loose, swinging sound, and more drive than the Apollo. The sound was more forward (closer to the listener). The Apollo was more balanced, laid back, and refined, but to me it's biggest virtue was the detail it wrung out of each song. As an example, I could clearly hear every little strum of the guitar underneath the more prominent distorted electric guitar, drums and vocals on a few rock tracks. With the 2010s2 I had to listen closer to pick up on these details, and sometimes they were tough to make out...they simply were not brought to the fore the way they were with the Apollo. One thing to note is that there is only about 5 hours on the Apollo so far. It was originally a dealer demo but the dealer said they barely played it.

I guess it's a matter of preference then. Personally I like the added detail and separation. Everything going on is part of the song, and hearing it with ease helps the musical message come across. I wouldn't mind getting that and some of what the Exposure brought...maybe with the right amp and speakers that will happen. The next comparison will be the 8000S vs. the 2010s2 integrated amp, then hopefully the ProAc 110 and Paradigm Studio 20. I'll say this though - with the right electronics ahead of them, the Quad 12L2 sound pretty sweet.

[frenchmon]

Hi frenchmon,

you know...that's hard...I owned Ergo 700, which is a little older model than Vento or your GLE. But anyway I used Ergo 700 with NAD 320BEE amplifier, which was not that good match. Too bright, present mids and highs. Of course a some music sounded very good by this combination, especially drums...and so on.... Then I sold that NAD and never heard it together with Vento 807. The NADs, which I'm using now, I used only shortly with Ergos, so I can't declare result from direct comparison.

But here are some my experiences and comparisons:

- I think Ergo models are I more present, detailed, may be more exact and more neutral than LE, but they are quite difficult to match with good amplifier to tame them (I would say some good Marantz or Denon is suitable for them).

- LE series seemed to me less precise, but somehow more musical, more consistent..I don't know...I could not say, which is better..LE or Ergo.
Anyway, Canton LE 107 sounded better with NAD 320BEE.

Of course..I don't know the GLE lines and newer Ergos, there could be a different situation.

- My Ventos seem to be a next step far from LE or Ergo. I think, they are very well balanced, the highs are smoothed, they have very musical, really good speakers. I would say, my NADs' are not that good partners to them, I 'm considering to change the amplifiers.

IF you like NAD, I've heard the NAD Master series was out standing, though I've never heard them my self.

[frenchmon]

I compared the Apollo to the 2010s2 CD player. IMO they are both of comparable quality but the presentations were different. The 2010s2 had greater emphasis on bass and just seemed to rock more. It had a loose, swinging sound, and more drive than the Apollo. The sound was more forward (closer to the listener). The Apollo was more balanced, laid back, and refined, but to me it's biggest virtue was the detail it wrung out of each song. As an example, I could clearly hear every little strum of the guitar underneath the more prominent distorted electric guitar, drums and vocals on a few rock tracks. With the 2010s2 I had to listen closer to pick up on these details, and sometimes they were tough to make out...they simply were not brought to the fore the way they were with the Apollo. One thing to note is that there is only about 5 hours on the Apollo so far. It was originally a dealer demo but the dealer said they barely played it.

I guess it's a matter of preference then. Personally I like the added detail and separation. Everything going on is part of the song, and hearing it with ease helps the musical message come across. I wouldn't mind getting that and some of what the Exposure brought...maybe with the right amp and speakers that will happen. The next comparison will be the 8000S vs. the 2010s2 integrated amp, then hopefully the ProAc 110 and Paradigm Studio 20. I'll say this though - with the right electronics ahead of them, the Quad 12L2 sound pretty sweet.

Well its just to bad you cant combine all the characteristics of both into one.

[YBArcam]

I'm hoping the right speaker, or the Exposure amp, will preserve the detail of the Apollo but also provide a bit more drive.

[YBArcam]

I hooked my Exposure 2010s2 amp up in place of the Audiolab 8000S. Very similar to what I noted when I first moved from the Exposure to the 8000S - the Audiolab has softer highs and more body. But I noticed something else this time around...something that I didn't notice was missing when I moved to the 8000S, but now when I listen to the 2010s2 it just sort of pops out. It hit me once I started playback - the Exposure preserved the detail and clarity that I thought the 8000S had, but it also revealed lower level details, micro-dynamics and the interplay between instruments that just didn't really jump out at me when I had the 8000S hooked up.

Okay, so it really is a trade off and now I'm leaning towards sticking with the 2010s2. I think what it brings is something that you want to preserve because it's integral to the music, and adding softer highs and more body can be achieved hopefully with the right speakers.

That's where I'm struggling now though. Other than the lack of body in the mid range I probably wouldn't change anything about my speakers. They sound great. If I find a speaker with more body then I'm probably trading off somewhere else where the Quads excel. But getting that extra fullness seems important to me. I'm still considering the three speakers on my list (Studio 20, Studio 110, Excite X16).

Is there a way to pick out a speaker that I can know will bring more fullness to the mix? Do I need a floorstander (Quad 21L2 perhaps?). Do I just need a bigger bookshelf (and/or bigger driver)? Should I look for a speaker whose frequency response in the mids is high? Greater volume in the midrange (and perhaps bass too) I would think would yield a fuller sound. I'm going to probably do in home trials of all three speakers on my list (with the 'digms it'll have to be the Studio 10) and I guess I'll go from there. All three speakers seem to potentially have what I'm looking for, but I won't know for sure until I try them out. There is the very real possibility that I've become too obsessed with this and I just need to forget the gear and just enjoy listening, but why do that when I can torture myself instead?

[PeruvianSkies]

I hooked my Exposure 2010s2 amp up in place of the Audiolab 8000S. Very similar to what I noted when I first moved from the Exposure to the 8000S - the Audiolab has softer highs and more body. But I noticed something else this time around...something that I didn't notice was missing when I moved to the 8000S, but now when I listen to the 2010s2 it just sort of pops out. It hit me once I started playback - the Exposure preserved the detail and clarity that I thought the 8000S had, but it also revealed lower level details, micro-dynamics and the interplay between instruments that just didn't really jump out at me when I had the 8000S hooked up.

Okay, so it really is a trade off and now I'm leaning towards sticking with the 2010s2. I think what it brings is something that you want to preserve because it's integral to the music, and adding softer highs and more body can be achieved hopefully with the right speakers.

That's where I'm struggling now though. Other than the lack of body in the mid range I probably wouldn't change anything about my speakers. They sound great. If I find a speaker with more body then I'm probably trading off somewhere else where the Quads excel. But getting that extra fullness seems important to me. I'm still considering the three speakers on my list (Studio 20, Studio 110, Excite X16).

Is there a way to pick out a speaker that I can know will bring more fullness to the mix? Do I need a floorstander (Quad 21L2 perhaps?). Do I just need a bigger bookshelf (and/or bigger driver)? Should I look for a speaker whose frequency response in the mids is high? Greater volume in the midrange (and perhaps bass too) I would think would yield a fuller sound. I'm going to probably do in home trials of all three speakers on my list (with the 'digms it'll have to be the Studio 10) and I guess I'll go from there. All three speakers seem to potentially have what I'm looking for, but I won't know for sure until I try them out. There is the very real possibility that I've become too obsessed with this and I just need to forget the gear and just enjoy listening, but why do that when I can torture myself instead?

What kinda money you looking to invest?

[YBArcam]

$1,500ish. That's about the value of what I can trade in. Keeping what I've got now and not making any moves is possible, but if I hit on something that I really love I will make the trade.

[PeruvianSkies]

$1,500ish. That's about the value of what I can trade in. Keeping what I've got now and not making any moves is possible, but if I hit on something that I really love I will make the trade.

You could easily pick up a used set of the classic PSB Stratus Golds for about half that amount or so, or even go with a new set of the PSB M2's depending on whether you want floorstander or not.

[YBArcam]

I'm definitely considering the used market. I'm going to add the Tannoy Revolution Signature DC6 to my list as well, only because I've liked other Tannoy models before.

[Mr Peabody]

YBArcam, also take a listen to the Martin Logan, Motion 12, right at $1500.00. I haven't heard these compared to what you are looking at but I heard them recently and was impressed by what they can do. These are not electrostats.

[YBArcam]

Thanks guys, I'll check out the PSB and Martin Logan suggestions.

I'm thinking a small tower might be better able to give me the sound I want. One thing I don't like about tower speakers is that they are often at the wrong height (the tweeter is too low). That necessitates either making or buying some sort of platform. But the Neat Motive 2 is a tower that is tilted back so that the drivers are aimed at ear level, and a small tower like this one is probably ideal for my room. I also read an article that the Motive 2 was partnered with the Exposure 2010s amp back at the 2006 CES. The Motive 2 definitely seems like it's worth a listen.

[Mr Peabody]

Take a look: http://www.martinlogan.com/

What is your thoughts?

[frenchmon]

Thanks guys, I'll check out the PSB and Martin Logan suggestions.

I'm thinking a small tower might be better able to give me the sound I want. One thing I don't like about tower speakers is that they are often at the wrong height (the tweeter is too low). That necessitates either making or buying some sort of platform. But the Neat Motive 2 is a tower that is tilted back so that the drivers are aimed at ear level, and a small tower like this one is probably ideal for my room. I also read an article that the Motive 2 was partnered with the Exposure 2010s amp back at the 2006 CES. The Motive 2 definitely seems like it's worth a listen.

I've always wanted to know what sound characteristic the Neat line of speakers have. And by the way...what type of sound do you like?

[YBArcam]

Take a look: http://www.martinlogan.com/

What is your thoughts?

They look big. The 10 seems like it would work better in my room, but I see those only go down to 65Hz. Two woofers on a tower speaker and only 65Hz? Not that that means anything. I guess the 12 would be what I'd go for, and looking at the height the tweeter would be in an ideal position. Too much for a small room though?

frenchmon, what kind of sound do I like? It's getting to the point where I don't even know! It seems I can find something I don't like about any speaker, and then I begin doubting myself. Basically, I want some richness and body, but also something very resolving, transparent and detailed. Smooth highs. A big sense of scale. Funny enough, my old Tannoy Mercury F2 (an entry level speaker) was probably the most satisfying speaker I've had yet. The Monitor Audio RS5 was great other than the too hot treble, and my Quad 12L2 are great other than the lack of body and the fact that there is some compression at high volumes (which I'm sure is just a limitation of their size). But I'm not in a rush to make a change. I'll look around and listen, and when I hit on the right speaker then I will bite.

The Neat line are often paired with Naim. They excel in what people refer to as PRaT, which I'm sure you guys are all aware of, and according to one review have a smooth and clean sound. Interestingly, the Motive 2 has a port on the bottom of the speaker.

[frenchmon]

I was going to offer Canton as a choice but the tweets may be a little hot for you if MA are hot in your opinion and the mid section may be just a tad lively with the dispersion of sound. But other than that Canton Floor standers will fill your bill I suppose.

I've read up on the Neat Acoustics Speaker Company while down in Carolina...I think they are a British speaker? I've read good things and very positive reviews concerning them. They use to be distributed by Blue Bird Music in the USA or Canada but they no longer carry them....Who is the USA distributer?

[bobsticks]

Take a look: http://www.martinlogan.com/

What is your thoughts?

I've heard them and was not at all impressed...sorta like a Sony HTiB compared to an ES unit through some comparable electronics.

I think we're ignoring the possibilty of used gear. Clearly space is an issue so the following link probably isn't a reasonable solution for our friend but is demonstrative of how one can step way up the line in product quality by purchasing used...

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....-ii-solid-wood

[frenchmon]

I've heard them and was not at all impressed...sorta like a Sony HTiB compared to an ES unit through some comparable electronics.

I think we're ignoring the possibilty of used gear. Clearly space is an issue so the following link probably isn't a reasonable solution for our friend but is demonstrative of how one can step way up the line in product quality by purchasing used...

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....-ii-solid-wood

I've heard them too. MrP and I listened to them over at Magnolia right after we listen to a few pairs of Vienna Acoustics. The Motions sounded light years ahead of the VA which had a very lost mid sections and a bottom end stuck in the mud. We where listening to my CD "Blues-Ette" By the "Curtis Fuller's Quintet" Featuring Benny Golson on tenor sax. IF you've not got that one in your collection you shoulda. Any how the Motions had clearer highs, and mids and a decent bottom end. But really....there was really nothing special about the Motions other than the name. So I am guessing after listening to the horrible VA, the Motions sounded like a million bucks.

[Mr Peabody]

The Motion 12 had an excellent bass detail and the rest of the range was good. Keep in mind the price range, I'd still consider the M12 a budget floorstander at $749.00 each. What gear did you hear them with? I assumed if they sounded good with a Yamaha 2065 they should sound even better with better gear. They aren't going to replace my Dyn's but if I was putting together a budget system they'd definitely be on my list. I also thought they were an improvement over the earlier non-electrostats released by ML.

[frenchmon]

The Motion 12 had an excellent bass detail and the rest of the range was good. Keep in mind the price range, I'd still consider the M12 a budget floorstander at $749.00 each. What gear did you hear them with? I assumed if they sounded good with a Yamaha 2065 they should sound even better with better gear. They aren't going to replace my Dyn's but if I was putting together a budget system they'd definitely be on my list. I also thought they were an improvement over the earlier non-electrostats released by ML.

Did you really think they where that great of a speaker? Nothing really stood out to me to say I would spend my money on them. But of course I like wood on my speakers. Those things where black plastic. For $749 each, I would rather have a pair of Monitor Audio's Rs6 or Canton GLE 407's or Paradigm Studio 20's. The Motions sound about as the same or as good as those Energy speakers. Both where heads above the VA.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't know if you really paid attention to the sound of the M12's, I did think they were good and a step up from the Energy. I'm indifferent to the looks so maybe you were put off before they were even turned on. What caught my ear first was the bass response and detail in that region. Remember I asked again to make sure they weren't amplified? That tweeter they use is pretty good as well. I mean I was surprised to learn they were only $1500.00 a pair. I commented to the girl I bet they sell a lot of the M12's. I'll have to try to get back there for another listen and start with those first. I know one thing up against the Vienna Acoustic the Motion 12 was a bargain.

[YBArcam]

I was going to offer Canton as a choice but the tweets may be a little hot for you if MA are hot in your opinion and the mid section may be just a tad lively with the dispersion of sound. But other than that Canton Floor standers will fill your bill I suppose.

I've read up on the Neat Acoustics Speaker Company while down in Carolina...I think they are a British speaker? I've read good things and very positive reviews concerning them. They use to be distributed by Blue Bird Music in the USA or Canada but they no longer carry them....Who is the USA distributer?

The store that carries Tannoy also carries Canton, so I guess we'll see what happens! I'm certainly open to listening to a pair if they have them on the floor.

You know, I didn't even realize that Blue Bird was no longer the distributor. I went to the Neat website and on the distributor page for both Canada and the U.S. it says to contact Neat directly. And sure enough I found this: http://www.bluebirdmusic.com/Neat%20Philosophy.htm

bobsticks, buying used is always at the back of my mind. I bought my Quad 12L2 for under $600 on A-gon, a pretty nice deal. I'm leaning to buying new this time around though, because of the convenience in dealing with a local store. First they let me listen at home (which is obviously important) and I may be able to work out a trade with the one I ultimately decide to buy from, which saves a lot of headache.