The Speaker Hunt Nears an End

[frenchmon]

It begs the question then. Are these reviews full of lies about the quality of these speakers?

IF I whee you, I would take whats being said with a grain of salt.

Like you said, the fact that most, or even all, of Studio 20 reviewers elect not to buy the speakers doesn't mean they are bad. It's not like there are hundreds of Studio 20 reviews out there. So there might be ten reviews. A reviewer could love the speakers but perhaps they elect to spend a little bit more and get something better, or they might buy something in the same price range (after all, there are lots of options at each price level - there is no shame in speaker X being passed over for a pair of ProAc's, for instance).

I agree...that does not make the studio 20's bad. I've listen to that speaker and almost got a pair my self...its a fine speaker. I was just to cheap at the time.

But either the reviewers mean what they say, or they are lying. Either the Paradigm 20 is a great speaker, and one they could easily live with even if they actually chose something else, or the reviews are bunk.

The Studio 20 is a great speaker. At lease to my ears and hundreds of other who have heard them. And Paradigm sells a lots of them. The worst version for the 20's was the v4 series. The Version 5 is just out standing from what I've heard. IF you dont believe me go ask those over at AVS.com

[YBArcam]

Thanks frenchmon. Don't worry, I'm still really excited about hearing the 20's and anticipate that they will be excellent.

[Mr Peabody]

I feel it's as Frenchmon was saying earlier each person has their own preference and reviewers aren't immune. I've heard speakers I liked well enough but would not buy. Gallo is one example. I cannot pinpoint what it is about them but I wouldn't buy a pair. I feel as RGA mentioned a bit of lack in coherency and the highs sometimes doesn't sound natural. With that being said I really enjoyed the few times I heard them. I liked Thiel well enough just not my personal desire in presentation. Then there are some speakers I dislike and I will refrain from examples. Then there are speakers I've heard and wish I could own a pair of each but since I don't have the room nor the funds have to pick my favorite and stick with that until something unseats it. I'm fortunate enough I now have my mainstay Dynaudio and an set of Klipsch Heresy to play with. I would also love to have a pair of Martin Logan. Then there are speakers you think you hate and a model or series comes along to sway your opinion or at least convinces you the company can put out listenable speakers like Klipsch. I don't take back the bashing I've given them in the past because they truly do have some bombs with their name on them but I have learned they have some good models as well. You all also must keep in mind that speaker companies have different approaches or designs and not just one is correct. As much as Dynaudio is my favorite I still enjoy good Klipsch and it's just two different presentations. I don't see why any one feels they have to be locked into any one type of presentation. It would also seem as a reviewer they should have a couple different types of speakers around for comparison and for synergy check. Most pro reviews I've read the writer usually has a couple different amps and sources around. I wouldn't hold up the fact that you can't find a reviewer with Paradigm as any type of statement. I'm sure there would be if you looked hard enough. There was a writer for I believe old Stereo Review who used Vandersteen. When I heard what Vandersteen actually sounded like I pretty much disregarded his reviews. I knew his ears and mine weren't going to like the same thing.

RGA, I like Paradigm as well but do not own them but if I did I would find you totally offensive. It's not enough for you to say Paradigm simply doesn't appeal to you, and you can even state why you think it's so but instead you have to make it sound like those who do own Paradigm buy out of ignorance, blindly or having hearing deficiencies.

[RGA]

It begs the question then. Are these reviews full of lies about the quality of these speakers?

Like you said, the fact that most, or even all, of Studio 20 reviewers elect not to buy the speakers doesn't mean they are bad. It's not like there are hundreds of Studio 20 reviews out there. So there might be ten reviews. A reviewer could love the speakers but perhaps they elect to spend a little bit more and get something better, or they might buy something in the same price range (after all, there are lots of options at each price level - there is no shame in speaker X being passed over for a pair of ProAc's, for instance).

But either the reviewers mean what they say, or they are lying. Either the Paradigm 20 is a great speaker, and one they could easily live with even if they actually chose something else, or the reviews are bunk.

Let me clear this up. I did say that it doesn't mean a reviewer doesn't like a speaker because he doesn't buy it. I like a lot of speakers that I didn't buy. You note correctly that there are reasons - if the reviewer's budget is $10k and he loves a $2k speaker he may feel it's the best speaker for the money but his budget is much higher and chooses to buy a better speaker. A Ferrari owner may like a Camero at $30k and thinks it's great but it's not a Ferrari. I did say that in my prior post so no the reviewers are not lying in this kind of instance. And there may be other issues like aesthetics, power requirements which could be legit.

That having been said and cleared up the issue I raise is that the review industry especially print media but online as well is about increasing readership - the more readership the more advertising revenue can be attained. The more positive reviews the happier the manufacturers and the more they will advertise. It's a business and the review press is not really "hard news" press no matter what they claim it to be.

Positive reviews means more happy manufacturers and more advertising space and more money generated for the owners of the magazine. My personal belief is that it would be "more" beneficial to the manufacturers of what I consider to be the "elite" gear to get praise they deserve and for the majority (and in my opinion it is the majority) of the overrated high end to be called out as such. I believe the premise that Arthur Salvatore argued years ago that looking at Stereophile under J. Gordon Holt there were 7 class A products in total when the magazine had no advertising. Even when they went to advertising in 1985 there was still a total of 9 class A components. When JA took over and the magazine has huge advertising there were 104 components with class A status.

Now I am not saying JA is doing anything shady at all - I truly believe he believes what he's doing but at the same time the fact of the matter is it waters down the integrity of such classifications. Especially, when he overrides the view of the reviewer who actually reviewed the products.

People for whatever reason put stock into ratings guides and for appliances and even cars I get that. Looking at the star safety rating of a car might be important to you (it is to me) i want to know if my car does well in front and side and rollover crash tests. It's still not guarantee it will be safer real world but it's bound to be safer than the car that only gets a 2 star rating. But for loudspeakers and other components that are subjective a reviewer IME will always give the product the benefit of the doubt. A speaker that leans bright will be called detailed or neutral or accurate or some term that bends the wording such that the speaker will not be called bright. After all the reviewer knows that what is bright to him may be a little exciting to the average consumer. So he writes the review with such wording. Besides he figures that in another room with mushier amplifiers that it may very well sound better in another person's room. So it gets the stamp of approval. This applies to amplifiers.

And the other problem is that one the one hand people like magazines like UHF because they give negative reviews (to Bryston, Castle, and Paradigm and B&W in review or in their commentary advice section) and they usually do not get products from those manufacturers. Arcam refuses to send them products because they absolutely destroyed one of their amps in a review for basically being a big pile of doggy doo. It's a small community and many companies know about UHF and won't take the risk of a bad review.

Stereophile recently gave rather negative reviews to Bryston's 7b amplifier and a Totem loudspeaker. Then people railed against Stereophile for dumping on them. Ahh - people want negative reviews but not if it is negative about what they bought.

As for Paradigm - I don't believe they're a terrible speaker maker - not at all. Nor do I think people buy them out of ignorance. I think what I would say is they're a good entry into the hi-fi speaker world on a sensible budget. My dealer likes other speakers better as do I but he is a dealer for them for this very reason. This is not an anti-Paradigm commentary - I have had several Paradigm speakers in the running for or my top choice in categories over the years. So in fact I have rated them higher than any other speaker I have auditioned for the money on several occasions so if you get that I dislike them then you should not (though certainly I dislike certain models) - I also dislike the Audio Note AX one and think it's beaten by a lot of better speakers but I don't dislike the company because of a few products I don't think are very good.

I almost bought a Paradigm surround system a time ago, I still think they're subs are some of the best for the money, and I bought an integrated amp based on auditions through Paradigm 100V2 speakers which means I felt the speaker was more than capable. I like more of them than I think I projected with previous posts.

My contention has merely been to try and look to off the beaten pack designs - those are usually the products the dealers tend to "like" and I say that because they're not being carried because they're going to sell very well. A dealer that actually loves music and is an actual audiophile opens shop in the hopes to carry his favorites gear but also has to sell the big name brand marketed stuff. You have to make a living after all. My dealer is probably one of most knowledgeable guys I've met in the industry and carried virtually every high end brand over the last 30 years. He carries stuff like Creek Audio and it doesn't sell well at all. He said he likes it for SS and to him it sounds nicer than the other Solid State amps but it is not well known, it doesn't look anything special and worst of all the name is just not something that rolls off the lips. People are creatures of marketing and if you say the name Creek when discussing audiophile amps - it reminds of a door opening with no oil and you think of that horrible sound. Sounds silly but it's not to far off from the truth. So they say Creek Audio instead. As knowledgeable as he is he notes that 90% of consumers already know what they want when they walk in - they read a review know what they want before really even auditioning - and when they do audition it's not extensive - it is more about confirming to themselves what they read.

With Paradigm one can look at all the similar competitors, PSB, Boston Acoustics, B&W, Dynaudio, Energy and dozens like them. My contention is that it doesn't really much matter which one you buy because they all tend to have a "something similar" presentation so you buy whichever one floats your boat. Dynaudio might have deeper bass prowess, the Energy may be more dynamic, the PSB might be the best balanced, the B&W may have the most extended treble, the Paradigm may have the biggest slam and soundstaging. But these differences are all not that big when one compares them to completely different designs such as single drivers, speakers with lossy cabinets, OB, line arrays, planars or electrostats. And these speaker types are often less carried because they're not mega corp products geared for home theater with matching center channels and surrounds. Paradigm is by no means a poor maker - they're as good as those others. And all those others get equally good reviews you'll notice. Largely because none of them separate themselves from each other.

Lastly part of my problem with some companies is the routine 4-5 year cycle of upgrading (if you can even call it that) of changing models to get new reviews to keep the marketing hype up. My amp has been selling for over 15 years and there is no reason to bother changing it. Look at Musical Fidelity and speakers that add Version 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 etc and ask yourself why they are changing them all the time. It's not to make a better product because often they are not. But if they say it is to FIX a problem then I question why they put something to market with very obvious problems to start with. It's always interesting that the new revolutionary much better than the old model occurs precisely when the product line has finished the review circuit and enter the plateau period. Coincidence I guess.

[poppachubby]

He carries stuff like Creek Audio and it doesn't sell well at all. He said he likes it for SS and to him it sounds nicer than the other Solid State amps but it is not well known, it doesn't look anything special and worst of all the name is just not something that rolls off the lips. People are creatures of marketing and if you say the name Creek when discussing audiophile amps - it reminds of a door opening with no oil and you think of that horrible sound. Sounds silly but it's not to far off from the truth. So they say Creek Audio instead.

Funny you mention this. My local dealer was selling Creek for sometime, but got out for this exact reason. He was down to his last OBH-18 phono stage, a demo model but in mint condition. It just wouldn't sell.

I traded him my USED, but excellent condition Bellari straight up for the Creek. The Bellari sold within a couple of weeks. I am enjoying the Creek far more than the Bellari, so good for me.

Creek is one of many brands for those in the know.

[Mr Peabody]

I agree, I used a Creek phono stage for a long while and had to spend a great deal of money to get what I considered an upgrade in sound. I also liked Creek integrated amps I've heard.

[RGA]

And Creek illustrates the point - it's nothing to look at, it's not marketed, it has a name that people may associate with the squeeky door. Audiophiles will seek it and Sugden (which you could say the same thing about) while most of everyone else will buy the bigger name sexier looking product. Meanwhile audiophile dealers like Terry at Soundhounds are frustrated that people pass it by for something he likes a lot less (MF) that costs more. But he will carry what the people want because if he doesn't someone else will.

This is the problem with the speaker world as well. Some makers have much deeper pockets and take out huge multiple full page ads in every issue of every stereo magazine on the planet. It's like a drumbeat - there is the same ad over and over and over. They can afford to give out multiple speakers to all the magazines for review and pay hundreds of thousands in advertising space. And of course the reviews are good, and then more and more dealers want to carry them. We're creatures of habit - big is better, more is better. Paradigm is sold sold at Mad-Man Macay a semi-box chain and Audio Video Unlimited (a big box chain) and several other home video outlets. You then see them sold everywhere. Big companies must be better than small ones.

I used to get into trouble for my McSpeaker analogy comparing them to McDonalds but I was comparing more the notion that they were everywhere - they were handy, and they were a known consistent product. But that you had to seek out a Gordon Ramsey Michelin Star quality restaurant and that those were not on every corner or that you had to seek out a Bentley dealer. Creek Audio or Sugden won't be found for example at any of those kinds of chains - they will have to be sought out and even at the high end shops they could be bypassed on name and looks. The big box chains will carry Bryston, NAD, Roksan, Parasound here if they carry anything other than receivers.

My whole point about Omega loudspeakers or something like them is that they will offer a very different kind of presentation and rather than just audition the usual speakers that are designed from a very similar design perspective that auditioning something completely different may add a better slant on things.

[YBArcam]

Thanks for clearing that up, RGA. I get where you are coming from and appreciate your push to have some of us try something new. I'll definitely get to doing that.

By the way, when I think of the 'Creek' name I tend to associate it with one of these:

[RGA]

Maybe they should name their next amp "A Paddle" and then they can say that you are not up the creek without a paddle.

Damn I must remember these kinds of goofy things if I ever get one of their amps for review.

[Mr Peabody]

That's interesting that Paradigm is marketed differently in the U.S. To my knowledge they aren't in any big box stores. They are also very particular over territory and dealers not selling out of theirs.

A bad economy has a way of changing things though, who would have thought you would ever by Krell over the internet.

[Enochrome]

Peabody,

I own a pair of Mini Monitor V.6's, this is not in the same league you are looking in but, i think they are an extremely versatile speaker. I did however audition the Studio 20's and they completely floored me. They turned everything I love about my Mini Monitors (check out my review on this site) up to eleven; their detail and depth are phenomenal and by the way, the Mini Monitors won Absolute Sounds "Best Budget Bookshelf" award, so what does that tell you. Strings and bass are unmatched in this price range. And the look: they were able to balance a very aggressive design with classy/regal touches and finishes.

I thought these speakers faired better than the B&W CM1 I auditioned them against.

As far as materials and construction: forget about it, all in house Canadian construction.

Hope this helps.

[Mr Peabody]

Enochrome, it certainly helps the cause for Paradigm but I wasn't the one looking to buy.

[Pat D]

Frenchmon, I'm not dissing the Paradigm S series. They are a nice sounding speaker. But the PSB Synchrony's at $3K and $5K have better bass, and a smoother midrange and treble. They present a wider sound stage and have more detail, resolution as well as an over all more balanced if not warmer sound. A good friend mine owns a pair of the $5k Synchrony's and before he bought them (he bought them online based on a Stereophile review with out hearing them first) I went with him and auditioned the Paradigm S series. The Paradigms had more of an aggressive in your face sound.

I've heard the PSB's on my friends system which consists of an AR Tube line stage preamp, Bells Hot rod amp and the Marantz SA8001 CDP. He recently upgraded his amp to a $5K pair of Nuforce REF-9se monoblocks and the speakers still sound awesome if not better.

The problem with comparing speakers is that most of the time the other equipment and setting is different, so it's almost like comparing apples to oranges. They are both types of fruit but they are very different.

I auditioned the PSB Synchrony One at some length a couple of years ago and was very impressed. I am sure I could live quite happily with them. Very neutral, great wide and deep image, and very easy to listen to.

On the other hand, I have the Paradigm Signature S2 (and a 15 inch subwoofer) and am very pleased with them. Very neutral, great wide and deep image, a little bit laid back--which I like, and very easy to listen to. The speaker does not call attention to itself.

When you find yourself just wanting to listen to the music instead of evaluating the speaker, you know you've found a good speaker.

[bobsticks]

When you find yourself just wanting to listen to the music instead of evaluating the speaker, you know you've found a good speaker.

Amen...

[YBArcam]

An unexpected turn of events:

Listening to my system lately, I'm a little disappointed. It wasn't as sweet sounding as I remembered it just last week. Drums with the 8000S are big, which can be fun, but I'm starting to think they are overblown. And it just isn't sounding as transparent and organized as my Exposure stuff...more jumbled, with added grain. I never felt that about music played back through the Exposure during the time I used it. And the Exposure could sound big too, it's not a wimpy amp, but perhaps it does this when the music calls for it and not all the time. Maybe this is what RGA talked about with his comments about damping and negative feedback (which Exposure probably uses, but not to the same degree).

Anyways, I don't know...I don't want to open that can of worms. I'm just reaching for an explanation as to why it's sounding the way it did. More listening is required...I didn't get rid of my Exposure gear yet, so I'll be comparing over the next several weeks. I'll continue to use the 8000S with my Quads. I should, in a few weeks, be able to try out the ProAc and Paradigm speakers. Both the 8000S and 2010s2 amps will get a shot with all of these speakers. I'll see what configuration I prefer. Right now it's looking like the 2010s2 might be coming back into the system. I'll be getting my Apollo back soon, it should be next weekend.

[frenchmon]

An unexpected turn of events:

Listening to my system lately, I'm a little disappointed. It wasn't as sweet sounding as I remembered it just last week. Drums with the 8000S are big, which can be fun, but I'm starting to think they are overblown. And it just isn't sounding as transparent and organized as my Exposure stuff...more jumbled, with added grain. I never felt that about music played back through the Exposure during the time I used it. And the Exposure could sound big too, it's not a wimpy amp, but perhaps it does this when the music calls for it and not all the time. Maybe this is what RGA talked about with his comments about damping and negative feedback (which Exposure probably uses, but not to the same degree).

Anyways, I don't know...I don't want to open that can of worms. I'm just reaching for an explanation as to why it's sounding the way it did. More listening is required...I didn't get rid of my Exposure gear yet, so I'll be comparing over the next several weeks. I'll continue to use the 8000S with my Quads. I should, in a few weeks, be able to try out the ProAc and Paradigm speakers. Both the 8000S and 2010s2 amps will get a shot with all of these speakers. I'll see what configuration I prefer. Right now it's looking like the 2010s2 might be coming back into the system. I'll be getting my Apollo back soon, it should be next weekend.

Oh boy! sounds great...a shoot out with not only speakers, but amps as well! Now you've got me really interested. Can you post pictures of your gear as you shoot out? I like to look at gear...and I suspect many here does as well but they wont come out the closet as of yet and say it...so I will...ima audio porn nut who loves to look at pictures of others audio gear...so please..if you can post pictures as you shoot-out.

[YBArcam]

Haha, I'm the same way. No problem frenchmon, I'll post some pics when this gets rolling. I may throw up some pics of my current system today or tomorrow, then as I add in various components I'll put those up too. The real comparisons won't begin for a few weeks though. I've got a couple of days off later this month that I'll be using to test the speakers, and that's when I'll get the Exposure gear back in place.

[YBArcam]

Okay, here are the pics! Wish I had a better camera but I think these turned out pretty good.



There is an Ultralink power conditioner in the corner under the credenza.















Atlas Jumpers, QED Screwloc banana plugs

[frenchmon]

Yes!!! Ima lovin the pictures. The Quads are just gorgeous. I like the color as well. What sound characteristics do they have? Is that the Music Hall tracker on your table? The Cambridge looks nice. Have you thought about giving a little isolation to you CDP/BDP? I put home made isolation under my X-Ray and it helped the sound greatly.



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I've been away from Vinyl for 20 years and wife bought me a discounted MMF 2.1 that was sitting in the back room in storage at Music Direct to see if I wnated to get back into it. It came with a Tracker/Elan cart... I've removed it in place of a Ortofon 2M Red that is more lively and detailed than the Goldring Tracker. I like the warmth of the Goldring though. I have also got home made Isolation for it as well and yes...it did wonders for the sound. I have to get some pictures of it up.

I've heard good things about the Cambridge 650p. How do you like it?

The Audiolab 8000S integrated amp is one that im not familiar with. I do know Exposure though Cant wait for the shoot out.

Heres a picture of my gear....



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I have since added another turntable that I got at Goodwill for $12 buck. works perfect. I figure I can sell it for triple the price. Its a Technics SL D3.

[YBArcam]

Thanks frenchmon! Those Rotel amps you have look serious!

Yes, the Quads are gorgeous. Sometimes I just stare at them. I don't know if I can give them up to be honest. They are really nice speakers. Driver integration is the best I've heard, bass is surprisingly deep but very tuneful, the highs are smooth and easy to listen to, detail is good, pace is excellent. I think the lows and highs are slightly more emphasized than the midrange, but I don't think drastically so. Things I am looking to improve are sense of scale, a fuller midrange, resolution, and a bit more detail. This is sort of nitpicking though...the Quads are not horrible in these respects. But when I compared the 12L2 to the PMC, with the PMC the resolution was noticeably better, and bass was truly impressive with the transmission line - as good as the 12L2 bass is, it's not on the same level.

Isolation is one of the next things I will consider. The credenza these components are on is very heavy and non-resonant, so it hasn't been a priority for me. But I should really explore this area as I'll never know until I try.

Yup, I have the Music Hall Tracker. I've been eying those Ortofon carts, but the 2.2 is only six months old or so. I'm going to figure out my amp and speakers, and use the 2.2 for a bit before making a change. I do plan on buying the Pro-Ject Speed Box and Acryl-It platter later this year though. They seem like two well regarded upgrades that also don't cost much. After a few years with the 2.2 I might upgrade the table.

The Cambridge is there to play SACD and DVD-A. I'll be using it for some Blu-Ray too once I get a high def monitor for my PC (I'll run an HDMI cable to it). For CD it's not bad, but not as good as my dedicated CD player (the Exposure 2010s2). I haven't been able to compare it to my Apollo yet, but I'd expect the Apollo to win.

[vlastoc]

Frenchmon,

I finally see your very nice setup...you've got mu sympathy for beeing a Cantons lover...

[frenchmon]

Well thank you Vlastoc...how do you like the Vento in comparison to the Ergo series?

[YBArcam]

So I got my Apollo back yesterday - they replaced the PC board. Tried out a couple albums last night and it worked flawlessly. I compared it to my Cambridge 650BD and the Apollo won handily. Perhaps for some reason the Apollo has some synergy with the Audiolab 8000S, because it sounds much better with the Rega player than it does with the CA. Better separation of instruments and an overall less congested sound. Maybe the 8000S is a keeper after all, but I'm looking forward to seeing how my Exposure amp acquits itself.

[frenchmon]

Boyeee! That Apollo looks sweet. Whats different about the sound of the Apollo compared to the CA? When do you think you will get the Exposure ?

[YBArcam]

Just as I described frenchmon, the Apollo just sounds cleaner, smoother, and better able to reveal small details because it's not as congested. Frankly, I was quite shocked the first time I realized just how much of a difference the source can make. The CA is staying put though, as it is going to play BR, DVD-A, and SACD discs. I would never expect it to beat a dedicated CD player with Redbook anyway.

I already own the Exposure. Will work it in sometime in the next couple of weeks. I just want to listen to the 8000S/Apollo a bit more before I do. Then hopefully I can make a call and sell some of this stuff already!