The Speaker Hunt Nears an End

[frenchmon]

The Gallo 3.5 for instance is a dream rock and roll speaker with studio pedigree and lack of colouration that it can do justice to classical and jazz. But I'd need to have it in my house for a while to see what I can get from it from tubes or single ended amps. The treble hash I heard is likely due to the SS amp that was being run.

RGA...the more I read from you, the more I find myself in disagreement with you, but thats no biggie your ears are your ears and mine are mine...first your opinion on Paradigm and owners, I know sales persons who do in fact love them and own them, and keep them. I am a Paradigm owner as well...and now on the Gallo Reference 3.5's. While the speaker is transparent its not sterile and may I add, has emotion. I've listen to it for a while through a tube amp and hybrid preamp and it was a wonderful sounding speaker. I listen to Jazz classical, blues and a little rock and the speaker performed just fine....its just not a traditional looking speaker, and they are not as tall as they seem to be from looking at the image on the internet.

[frenchmon]

YBA, great pick up on that Rega Apollo SE CDP! It's a fantastic player and I would put it up players costing thousands more.

For speakers, I would consider a pair of PSB Synchrony's if they are in your budget. Awesome sounding speaker. They blow away the Paradigm Signature series in every aspect.

Raven...I have heard the Signature speakers and I thought they where a nice speaker. Not hard on the ear, but a nice lively tweeter and a great mid-section that held your attention to what it was doing. This speaker has emotion and is not a boring speaker at all. Not a laid back speaker and not a speaker to be in your face either. They require good power to get them to sound like they where made to sound.

The PSB Synchrony or any PSB speaker I have never heard. Can you kindly describe the speaker? I suspect they are two different sounding speaker from reading a few reviews....they seem to be more laid back and sterile from what I gather.

[frenchmon]

Indeed, I have a cheap and cheerful speaker that does just that in the Wharfedale Vanguard (is an upgraded 3 driver version of the classic E-70) For rock this thing will kill a Thiel. http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/olde...fedalee70.html for classical the Thiels will kill the Wharfedale - but since most people listen to more rock and roll they make more sense - and save a pile of cash.

Here's the thing that really gets me, and I know I do it, and am guilty of it as well. But when it really boils down, Some place on this planet some one is disagreeing with your dogmas and a write-ups dogmas about Thiel speakers or any speaker. Thats why a good listen to gear is always important to determine if it moves us one way or another.

Now I've listened to Thiels and I do find them boring speakers...but that's because I like a more lively speaker with more sparkle in the upper ranges of sound. And I've learned over the years, that a Nissan is not my cupatea...ima more of a Toyota kinda guy. Same with audio gear and speakers. Would I say a Nissa really is better than Toyota and will kick the Nissan's butt? I have, but in wisdom, I know that one is probably not better than the other, and it all comes down to taste and needs...In other words its all subjective in the end. So while I think my favorite speaker Canton is much more better than your Audio Note brand of Speakers, they really are not due to preferences in sound, and it would be better in wisdom if we act like its just a matter of taste rather than superiority. That way we wont come off as looking like a total snob and a jerk who knows everything about what is to be known about the subject...Unless of course, you value your ego over the feelings of people we interact with often. There is a way of saying it to smooth it out rather than mine is better than yours, and that settles it. ....Mr Kal Rubinson who also shares in your writing passion and contributes to online forums has wisdom...he understands its a matter of taste rather than mine is better.

[LeRoy]

Congrats on your Rega Apollo player. As you mentioned in your earlier post, you might decide to keep it if it really performs to your expectations. Since that might turn out to be the case have you already auditioned the Apollo with Rega speakers? Is the Rega speaker a consideration for you?

I am going to Austin,TX next weekend to meet with an audio retailer that carries Rega and Kudos speakers and I will be making direct comparisons between both. The retailer should also have an Apollo on hand for demo and I've been wanting to compare the Apollo to the M.F. XRAY so I will take that along with me. I'll be posting my interpretations on what I think I heard.

LeRoy

[Mr Peabody]

LeRoy that should be an interesting shoot out, look forward to your report.

[YBArcam]

Congrats on your Rega Apollo player. As you mentioned in your earlier post, you might decide to keep it if it really performs to your expectations. Since that might turn out to be the case have you already auditioned the Apollo with Rega speakers? Is the Rega speaker a consideration for you?

I am going to Austin,TX next weekend to meet with an audio retailer that carries Rega and Kudos speakers and I will be making direct comparisons between both. The retailer should also have an Apollo on hand for demo and I've been wanting to compare the Apollo to the M.F. XRAY so I will take that along with me. I'll be posting my interpretations on what I think I heard.

LeRoy

I might be wrong about all this, but I'm a little wary of Rega speakers. Not that they are bad or have reliability issues or anything like that, but just because Rega is known as one of those flat-earth brands. My experience with flat-earth sound is that it's just not my cup of tea. Naim for example, is often criticized for sounding thin and not doing those audiophile things (soundstaging, detail) all that well. I heard a Naim system and my impressions were exactly that. I've come to realize that I enjoy these things when listening. Part of the reason I moved on from Exposure was also due to the thinner sound.

I opted for the Apollo because I really like using Rega players, and it's got a reputation for being successfully used in many different kinds of systems. If it gives me some of the pace Rega is known for, and the rest of my system gives me the other stuff I like, I figured that might work. And it seemed to while the Apollo was working.

I've read that Rega turntables play just a little bit fast. I wonder if their CD players employ a similar kind of trick.

[RGA]

RGA...the more I read from you, the more I find myself in disagreement with you, but thats no biggie your ears are your ears and mine are mine...first your opinion on Paradigm and owners, I know sales persons who do in fact love them and own them, and keep them. I am a Paradigm owner as well...and now on the Gallo Reference 3.5's. While the speaker is transparent its not sterile and may I add, has emotion. I've listen to it for a while through a tube amp and hybrid preamp and it was a wonderful sounding speaker. I listen to Jazz classical, blues and a little rock and the speaker performed just fine....its just not a traditional looking speaker, and they are not as tall as they seem to be from looking at the image on the internet.

I think you read my post incorrectly. I chose Gallo as one of the 5 best sub $10k rooms I auditioned at CES. I think it would have been better with better (likely tube) amplifiers. It still made my top 5 with SS amps. As for Paradigm, IMO there is better for less in the Studio price range and up. The monitor line down is fine enough for the price. I have not been impressed with anything from them since the V2 series. Here is my Gallo Coverage http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=713

[RGA]

Now I've listened to Thiels and I do find them boring speakers...but that's because I like a more lively speaker with more sparkle in the upper ranges of sound. And I've learned over the years, that a Nissan is not my cupatea...ima more of a Toyota kinda guy. Same with audio gear and speakers. Would I say a Nissa really is better than Toyota and will kick the Nissan's butt? I have, but in wisdom, I know that one is probably not better than the other, and it all comes down to taste and needs...In other words its all subjective in the end. So while I think my favorite speaker Canton is much more better than your Audio Note brand of Speakers, they really are not due to preferences in sound, and it would be better in wisdom if we act like its just a matter of taste rather than superiority. That way we wont come off as looking like a total snob and a jerk who knows everything about what is to be known about the subject...Unless of course, you value your ego over the feelings of people we interact with often. There is a way of saying it to smooth it out rather than mine is better than yours, and that settles it. ....Mr Kal Rubinson who also shares in your writing passion and contributes to online forums has wisdom...he understands its a matter of taste rather than mine is better.

Unfortunately I disagree that it's a matter of taste. I believe there are clearly superior sounding amplifiers and speakers. At certain "levels" once there are speakers at that level then it's certainly a matter of taste. Using your car analogy there are clearly very superior vehicles to other vehicles and there are general classifications. For example if you like Sports cars (which we may say are analogous to people who like Rock music) you have cheap but good sports cars like Camero which might be a Gallo that the average person can afford at some point and then there is a Bughatti which will BLOW AWAY a Camaro (maybe that is a top beastly Tannoy). But there is clearly a superior speaker/car.

If however your tastes is for a more laid back sound like a Quad 2905 that is posh sounding then maybe we equate that with a luxury sedan. Maybe the Quad is a nice Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. It's no sports car but it's comfortable. Maybe a top Vandersteen is a Rolls. But again you should be able to tell that one is better than another. The subjectivity of it comes in when you are deciding between two products in the same class - you don't compare the Rolls to a Corolla but you can certainly compare Rolls to a Mayback or Corolla to a Civic. Then of course your personal tastes comes in to play.

Indeed, even if you ONLY look at one manufacturer they themselves sell several models - some companies sell $300 speakers and $60,000 speakers - the latter is going to be a far far superior loudspeaker - it's not a matter of taste. The flagship speaker is better than their cheapest speakers. Thus if that is true why isn't it also true when you cross-compare speakers from different makers? The answer is that it is in most cases.

With Cars I have never owned a car from the same maker more than once. I am not someone that is interested in what a car maker was like 20 years ago or even 3 years ago. I am interested in what they are doing now and how it directly compares against others. They are big corporations that are out for the bottom line. If building quality will gain a foothold they will do it - if resting on their name reputation and building unsafe rubbish will net them a profit then that's what they'll do.

With the American companies building their usual crap, and Toyota doing their best GM impersonation (it's too bad Americans don't seem to get the lemon Aid but they were talking about engine surging problems in 2000 not 2010), and Honda slipping dramatically in reliability I thought it was a good opportunity for the South Koreans to step up and gain a nice foothold into the market. And what do you know the horrible little Pony days are over and reading the Elantra stomp everything in it's class and Kia not far behind and both offering far better warranties to go with it - they're objectively superior to most of the stuff in their price class. But people are very tied to name brands and will only buy a Ford or only buy a Toyota(even if it will kill them).

I like a lot of different stereos and dislike a lot of them. One man's opinion.

[YBArcam]

Not to get into a car thing, but Ford is kicking butt now. Building great cars that are reliable and fuel efficient. My '97 Grand Prix keeps going strong, no major issues. I'm glad I didn't spend $5K more for a comparably equipped Accord or Camry. And the Grand Prix looks way sweeter to boot. Always been an American car guy, probably always will. I've always preferred the styling and performance (low end torque). Frankly, the talk that Americans built crap and Japanese built quality reached hyperbolic levels. If you listened to people, you'd think every single American car was a lemon, and all you had to do with a Japanese car was oil changes and nothing would ever go wrong.

[frenchmon]

I think you read my post incorrectly. I chose Gallo as one of the 5 best sub $10k rooms I auditioned at CES. I think it would have been better with better (likely tube) amplifiers. It still made my top 5 with SS amps. As for Paradigm, IMO there is better for less in the Studio price range and up. The monitor line down is fine enough for the price. I have not been impressed with anything from them since the V2 series. Here is my Gallo Coverage http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=713

Pardon me if I miss understood. As for Paradigm...im sure you may find better for less. I wont argue that point. That is most certainly the case with a lot of things. I relly have not been impressed with the monitor series above v3.

[frenchmon]

Unfortunately I disagree that it's a matter of taste. I believe there are clearly superior sounding amplifiers and speakers. At certain "levels" once there are speakers at that level then it's certainly a matter of taste. Using your car analogy there are clearly very superior vehicles to other vehicles and there are general classifications. For example if you like Sports cars (which we may say are analogous to people who like Rock music) you have cheap but good sports cars like Camero which might be a Gallo that the average person can afford at some point and then there is a Bughatti which will BLOW AWAY a Camaro (maybe that is a top beastly Tannoy). But there is clearly a superior speaker/car.

Please don't miss my point, and perhaps I should have been a bit more clear...its about apples to apples and not oranges to oranges.

If however your tastes is for a more laid back sound like a Quad 2905 that is posh sounding then maybe we equate that with a luxury sedan. Maybe the Quad is a nice Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. It's no sports car but it's comfortable. Maybe a top Vandersteen is a Rolls. But again you should be able to tell that one is better than another. The subjectivity of it comes in when you are deciding between two products in the same class - you don't compare the Rolls to a Corolla but you can certainly compare Rolls to a Mayback or Corolla to a Civic. Then of course your personal tastes comes in to play.

Yes thats the point...apples to apples.

Indeed, even if you ONLY look at one manufacturer they themselves sell several models - some companies sell $300 speakers and $60,000 speakers - the latter is going to be a far far superior loudspeaker - it's not a matter of taste. The flagship speaker is better than their cheapest speakers. Thus if that is true why isn't it also true when you cross-compare speakers from different makers? The answer is that it is in most cases.

With Cars I have never owned a car from the same maker more than once. I am not someone that is interested in what a car maker was like 20 years ago or even 3 years ago. I am interested in what they are doing now and how it directly compares against others. They are big corporations that are out for the bottom line. If building quality will gain a foothold they will do it - if resting on their name reputation and building unsafe rubbish will net them a profit then that's what they'll do.

With the American companies building their usual crap, and Toyota doing their best GM impersonation (it's too bad Americans don't seem to get the lemon Aid but they were talking about engine surging problems in 2000 not 2010), and Honda slipping dramatically in reliability I thought it was a good opportunity for the South Koreans to step up and gain a nice foothold into the market. And what do you know the horrible little Pony days are over and reading the Elantra stomp everything in it's class and Kia not far behind and both offering far better warranties to go with it - they're objectively superior to most of the stuff in their price class. But people are very tied to name brands and will only buy a Ford or only buy a Toyota(even if it will kill them).

I like a lot of different stereos and dislike a lot of them. One man's opinion.

The whole point of the conversation was not automobiles...but being dogmatic in what we believe is superior gear. I have my favorites...just as well as the next audio hobbyist. But I think it be wise not to kick his gear to the ground as junk and put mine on a pedestal as the end all solution. That was my only point.

[frenchmon]

Not to get into a car thing, but Ford is kicking butt now. Building great cars that are reliable and fuel efficient. My '97 Grand Prix keeps going strong, no major issues. I'm glad I didn't spend $5K more for a comparably equipped Accord or Camry. And the Grand Prix looks way sweeter to boot. Always been an American car guy, probably always will. I've always preferred the styling and performance (low end torque). Frankly, the talk that Americans built crap and Japanese built quality reached hyperbolic levels. If you listened to people, you'd think every single American car was a lemon, and all you had to do with a Japanese car was oil changes and nothing would ever go wrong.

YBA....I agree that Ford is doing an outstanding job with their new cars. I also think they where the only ones not taking the bail-out. I also think GM is doing a good job as well as Chrysler at the come back. If any one needs a new car its me...just ask MrP...he has road in my hoopty more than once and im sure he will tell you that thing stinks. Its a 1992 Saturn. and its raggaly to the max. But the problem is I hate car notes. Im trying to hold on to it as long as possible.

That Ford Taurus is just a fine automobile. That thing is on my list as well as that new Buick... if I can get over the car note thing. I also agree that the talk about American cars being junk is also untrue. I have personally owned one Japaneses car in my life and it was a Subaru. Now my wife is a different story...if it does not have a Toyota or Lexus symbol on it..she wont have it.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, I'm not dissing the Paradigm S series. They are a nice sounding speaker. But the PSB Synchrony's at $3K and $5K have better bass, and a smoother midrange and treble. They present a wider sound stage and have more detail, resolution as well as an over all more balanced if not warmer sound. A good friend mine owns a pair of the $5k Synchrony's and before he bought them (he bought them online based on a Stereophile review with out hearing them first) I went with him and auditioned the Paradigm S series. The Paradigms had more of an aggressive in your face sound.

I've heard the PSB's on my friends system which consists of an AR Tube line stage preamp, Bells Hot rod amp and the Marantz SA8001 CDP. He recently upgraded his amp to a $5K pair of Nuforce REF-9se monoblocks and the speakers still sound awesome if not better.

The problem with comparing speakers is that most of the time the other equipment and setting is different, so it's almost like comparing apples to oranges. They are both types of fruit but they are very different.

[YBArcam]

The new Taurus seems to be a great performer. The exterior to me, I'm not sure if it works. But the interior styling is top notch.

The new Buick Lacrosse, it just looks flat out beautiful, both inside and out. If I were buying now I'd probably get a Ford Fusion. But that Lacrosse would be tough to turn down. The new Regal also looks great. And the new Focus, of course it's definitely a class or two below these other cars, but it looks amazing for a small car. They are bringing over the European model, which has always been well regarded and is more upscale than our Focus has been.

I don't mind if this thread veers off topic, and I'm sure that won't last long. Cars seem to be a passion for many people. I'll bring it back on topic when I listen to some more speakers (hopefully in a week's time). Of course, on-topic posts like the above are always welcome!

I'll definitely try to listen to a pair of Synchony One's, if they are on the dealer's floor. blackraven, what do you think of the Imagine line? They seem to be on par with the Studio line from Paradigm, but unfortunately there is no bookshelf model with a 6.5" driver.

[frenchmon]

Frenchmon, I'm not dissing the Paradigm S series. They are a nice sounding speaker. But the PSB Synchrony's at $3K and $5K have better bass, and a smoother midrange and treble. They present a wider sound stage and have more detail, resolution as well as an over all more balanced if not warmer sound. A good friend mine owns a pair of the $5k Synchrony's and before he bought them (he bought them online based on a Stereophile review with out hearing them first) I went with him and auditioned the Paradigm S series. The Paradigms had more of an aggressive in your face sound.

I've heard the PSB's on my friends system which consists of an AR Tube line stage preamp, Bells Hot rod amp and the Marantz SA8001 CDP. He recently upgraded his amp to a $5K pair of Nuforce REF-9se monoblocks and the speakers still sound awesome if not better.

The problem with comparing speakers is that most of the time the other equipment and setting is different, so it's almost like comparing apples to oranges. They are both types of fruit but they are very different.

Thanks Raven....I cant wait to hear a pair. Every review I read is like awesome. Problem is no place around hear has them. One day MrPeabody and I will have to take a trip up to Kansas City or Chicago to listen to some gear.

[RGA]

Not to get into a car thing, but Ford is kicking butt now. Building great cars that are reliable and fuel efficient. My '97 Grand Prix keeps going strong, no major issues. I'm glad I didn't spend $5K more for a comparably equipped Accord or Camry. And the Grand Prix looks way sweeter to boot. Always been an American car guy, probably always will. I've always preferred the styling and performance (low end torque). Frankly, the talk that Americans built crap and Japanese built quality reached hyperbolic levels. If you listened to people, you'd think every single American car was a lemon, and all you had to do with a Japanese car was oil changes and nothing would ever go wrong.

I think the hyperbole was not hyperbole but based on hard statistics. This is not to say that certain American models were not always quite decent or that there were not some Japanese models that were overrated junkers but the Lemon-Aid combined with CR (and I say combined because the Lemon-Aid catches a lot of what CR misses) that overall Toyota and Honda are FAR more reliable motor vehicles "overall" than GM, Ford, and Chrysler. In some cases a comparable GM and Ford will fail 10 times more often or more over a 10 year period. Those kinds of facts however will be ignored completely if you're the one guy in a 100 that has his Cavelier last 20 years and 400,000 miles with nary a problem. It's just that the 90 other guys will have it self destruct at 170,000 miles and 8 others won't get past 50,000 without a myriad of trouble.

But like I said if you are a Toyota guy you make fun of American car owners but as you note Ford is making some decent cars - and some very good ones - while Toyota is making death traps. So it's not a good idea to be "anti-American car" or "Pro-Japanese" because as you correctly note the tides shift. For years Ford was a laughing stock and they're working to change that. Kia and Hyundai were an absolute joke and now they're most certainly not. No they won't appeal to the style folks but they will appeal to the people who bought Toyota for their reliability. The Elantra recently got 5 stars in the Lemon-Aid which heavily focuses on reliability and price and features and ride and comfort. Honda Civic got 3 stars and costs more. Corolla got 2 stars and that's not counting their problems. But for 15 or so solid years or so the Civic was the 5 star champ in its class. And I must say it was certainly the most reliable car I have ever owned. It even went up hills better than my Pontiac Grand Am which was a V6. The civic was incomparably a better vehicle than the Grand Am. Though yes it looked better.

Just as an side - the Camero was the only GM I believe that got 5 stars in the Used car Lemon Aid - it got great scores in front and side crash ratings as well. You have to view cars model specific IMO not the company.

I suppose it depends on what you want from a vehicle. I don't really care what they look like since I can't see the outside of it while I am behind the wheel.

[poppachubby]

My assessment of Paradigm is that they are chameloen like, depends on the amplification. I have heard the same pair suck and then rock by simply switching amps.

Rich it is wrong for you and I to diss Paradigm as we must support all things Canuck. We must spread our influence globally, one pair of speakers at a time. Once they are all in place, we can activate the listening devices we have planted in them, and crush our enemies.

You Yanks don';t stand a chance, MMMMWWWHHAHAHAHhahahhahahaaaaaaaaa......

[blackraven]

YBA, I havent heard the Imagine line but the reviews on the line are good. The Image T-6 is a good speaker as well. It uses some of the same tech. as the Synchrony's.

Here's a link to some discounted Synchrony one's.

http://www.soundseller.com/index.php/cPath/25

[bobsticks]

Unfortunately I disagree that it's a matter of taste. I believe there are clearly superior sounding amplifiers and speakers. At certain "levels" once there are speakers at that level then it's certainly a matter of taste. Using your car analogy there are clearly very superior vehicles to other vehicles and there are general classifications...stuff...

I think you're on dangerous ground here in that A) your own argument disproves itself B) from a standpoint of of logical consistency that argument is unsuccessful, and C) you are, successfully managing to conjure the image of Melvin Walker.

Many if not most audiiophiles judge aspeakers value by it's capability to perform certain tasks to a level comensurate with their approval. Imaging? Check. Midrange lushness? Check...etc. A greater majority of the planet, however, wants their music to be palatable to their tastes for simple aesthetic reasons, charts be damned.

Things seem to get a bit closer when you analogize luxury cars because so many "qualitative" judgements within that realm are subjective. Let's face it, anything above a boombox or an iPod these days is a luxury...and caveat emptor don't buy stuff by reputation, graphs, charts or any other such rubbish.

My point, and my only point, is that whatever sounds best to someone in their room, with their gear is "best" for them. I think you and I, RGA, have similar tastes and similar conclusions, but we arrive to them by different routes...

[RGA]

When it comes to the way I listen - the first thing my ear is drawn to is this:

Do i hear the woofer separate from the rest of the speaker or a mismatch - I'm quite sensitive to it and I would say 99% of every system exhibits the problem and it's why I don't like most stereo systems (which may be odd coming from a reviewer). But there it is. It bothers me. Now I try and set that aside as best as I can and just accept the fact that I can hear the drivers operating as separate and not cohesively. So i try and find the ones that do it better than others. B&W for instance with the tweeter on top - well I ALWAYS hear the tweeter on top. They always sound like a gap and not just their look but it seems something is missing when the top of the midwoofer's passband where the tweeter picks up the rest of the notes. Quad and AN and a few others note the importance of the crossover but also of the physical materials used in the woofer and tweeter. If a note is carried through from one driver to the next it would make sense that both drivers are made from materials that compliment each other so that when it is physically outputting a frequency the resonance signature of the material somewhat matches the driver handing off the note. Quad wrote about this for their boxed speakers and of course they would consider this critical because they make electrostats which are single drivers.

Not everyone notices this failing but I suspect a lot of Electrostatic and Lowther owners tend to be bothered by some of this as well which is why they swear by those designs. While others either don't notice it or simply don't listen carefully enough, or even care so long as the soundstage is good and it has a flattish frequency response. Speakers like Paradigm to me are immediately obviously loudspeakers. I hear all the drivers and the box resonance instantly and it bugs me. I have tried Paradigm for 20 years with loads of equipment and it just doesn't sound like live, it sounds like plastic and has a presence on every disc - it just doesn't go away. I don't get the appeal. I got the 100V2 though because it had big loud powerful controlled sound (not cohesive but not much for the money is) and it had an attractive price and it was very very well built. Then the 100V3 came out cost 30% more money - worse build, less bass, sounded thin and I could hear an obvious box echo - I notice they got rid of that version faster than usual as many felt the same way I did - the V2 was better. I still say the 100V2 was one of the better floorstanding speaker values I heard over the decade. It offered a LOT of everything for $2k.

Anyway, that might explain where my ear is coming from and perhaps why multi-way speakers tend to have problems for me. Thiel for instance you have to sit way back for their drivers to sound coherent. The problem for me then is that I am so darn far away from them that I want to put up the volume. But they also are not terribly good on macrodynamics and so they don't really have any impact. It all sounds polite and as if I am in the back row of the hall. If I am going to go down the polite refined and not so great dynamic route I would buy a Quad or a King Sound - those are very coherent and have more resolution and a "window to the event" kind of presentation that Thiel and Vandersteen don't possess.

Even the Gallo which I like was not cohesive - the woofer made itself known - it's just that I think it has the speed articulation and impact that if you can get the positioning right you can probably get them in sync with more time and trials. And even if you can't it does have those other strengths and the sheer ability to blow you into next week. A speaker needs to do that IMO. If it can't play AC/DC at level then why would anyone think it could possibly play Beethoven's 9th credibly.

At the end of the day 90% or more of music playback resides in the midrange. A speaker like the Teresonic Ingenium is a speaker that makes a strong case against any multi-way speaker. Same of the Slilbatone Aporia single driver. There is a lot of bass - not the slam of a multi-way but none of them are even remotely close to capturing the midrange as cohesively. Some two ways like the AN E but the list is very small that I have heard - the E and J get away with it because they're further away from the listener and in the corner. The time deal from side walls are non existent so everything is coming from pretty much the same place resulting in a time correct presentation (though the speaker is deliberately stepped out) Other speakers like the Green Mountain Audio stuff may be as well but I have not heard any of them so I can't say. Single drivers and electrostats and pure ribbons would also be cohesive but they lack credible bass unless they're stupid large.

Sorry I am writing this at 2am so with luck some of the above is remotely coherent.

[YBArcam]

It's great that you mention that, RGA. Driver integration is something that I picked up on after hearing my Quad 12L2 for the first time, and I've written about it (albeit on other websites). Before the Quads I didn't really notice, or perhaps I did but I thought that's how speakers are, so I didn't pay it much mind. But with the Quads, the highs just mixed in so well with the lows and mids that it was really quite remarkable. I would say that it is the speaker's biggest strength. Is it enough for me to keep them? I'm not sure, but I'm quite fond of the Quads all around, so perhaps I will. Ultimately I'm looking for more scale and detail, perhaps a little deeper bass, but this is nitpicking somewhat as the 12L2 isn't horrible in these respects.

I'd say the PMC did an excellent job at driver integration as well. My old Monitor Audio RS5 did not, and I don't think it helped much that the highs were so much louder than everything else. I've also owned the Wharfedale Evo2-10, and of course my old Tannoy Mercury F2 and my first speaker, which was the Energy Connoisseur C-1. It's been too long for me to give an honest appraisal of those, but I'm quite certain that they were not on par with my 12L2.

I would have thought Paradigm and Monitor Audio use materials in both drivers that compliment each other, as the drivers they employ are both metal. But I'm sure there is more to it than that.

I am honestly surprised at how many folks seem to dislike the Studio series from Paradigm. The reviews really make the speaker seem like a leader at it's price point (I realize a lot of reviews do this), and I notice that it seems to do well in the used market. I'll just have to hear a pair for myself I guess.

[frenchmon]

It's great that you mention that, RGA. Driver integration is something that I picked up on after hearing my Quad 12L2 for the first time, and I've written about it (albeit on other websites). Before the Quads I didn't really notice, or perhaps I did but I thought that's how speakers are, so I didn't pay it much mind. But with the Quads, the highs just mixed in so well with the lows and mids that it was really quite remarkable. I would say that it is the speaker's biggest strength. Is it enough for me to keep them? I'm not sure, but I'm quite fond of the Quads all around, so perhaps I will. Ultimately I'm looking for more scale and detail, perhaps a little deeper bass, but this is nitpicking somewhat as the 12L2 isn't horrible in these respects.

I'd say the PMC did an excellent job at driver integration as well. My old Monitor Audio RS5 did not, and I don't think it helped much that the highs were so much louder than everything else. I've also owned the Wharfedale Evo2-10, and of course my old Tannoy Mercury F2 and my first speaker, which was the Energy Connoisseur C-1. It's been too long for me to give an honest appraisal of those, but I'm quite certain that they were not on par with my 12L2.

I would have thought Paradigm and Monitor Audio use materials in both drivers that compliment each other, as the drivers they employ are both metal. But I'm sure there is more to it than that.

I am honestly surprised at how many folks seem to dislike the Studio series from Paradigm. The reviews really make the speaker seem like a leader at it's price point (I realize a lot of reviews do this), and I notice that it seems to do well in the used market. I'll just have to hear a pair for myself I guess.

Well..I am for one that dont have a problem with the Studio or Signature series from Paradigm. I like them both.

[RGA]

I am honestly surprised at how many folks seem to dislike the Studio series from Paradigm. The reviews really make the speaker seem like a leader at it's price point (I realize a lot of reviews do this), and I notice that it seems to do well in the used market. I'll just have to hear a pair for myself I guess.

As my dealer said - he has speakers he carries to sell and speakers he carries to own. Paradigm is a speaker he carries to sell. There are speakers that get great reviews and speakers that the reviewers keep. Which isn't to say that if the reviewer doesn't keep it it's not good but you can read between the lines.

[YBArcam]

It begs the question then. Are these reviews full of lies about the quality of these speakers?

Like you said, the fact that most, or even all, of Studio 20 reviewers elect not to buy the speakers doesn't mean they are bad. It's not like there are hundreds of Studio 20 reviews out there. So there might be ten reviews. A reviewer could love the speakers but perhaps they elect to spend a little bit more and get something better, or they might buy something in the same price range (after all, there are lots of options at each price level - there is no shame in speaker X being passed over for a pair of ProAc's, for instance).

But either the reviewers mean what they say, or they are lying. Either the Paradigm 20 is a great speaker, and one they could easily live with even if they actually chose something else, or the reviews are bunk.

[frenchmon]

As my dealer said - he has speakers he carries to sell and speakers he carries to own. Paradigm is a speaker he carries to sell. There are speakers that get great reviews and speakers that the reviewers keep. Which isn't to say that if the reviewer doesn't keep it it's not good but you can read between the lines.

Well you need to talk to Kal Rubinson...because he is a reviewer who has a pair in his system. I also know those who sell them down in Carolina and also own them. From reading your postings between the lines... you make it sound like no one likes them....and we all know that's far from the truth. They have a large following in may places....here is one such place.http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=559431

IF what you say is the majority, them Paradigm would have stopped selling them by now, but that's not the case. IF you don't like a product then that's fine, but to make it seem like its across the board that no one likes them is just not right RGA..