Small Subwoofer?

[Redbeard]

I just put together an entry level audiophile H/T and music system comprising of an NAD T753 receiver and a full set of new Focal JM Labs Chorus S speakers. The system sounds incredible with amazing clarity and suprising bass down to 55hz from the 5" in the speakers. The problem is I would like to have more of a bass presence especially with the range down to around 25hz. The problem is that I live in a duplex and do not want to blow the neighbors sox off and get evicted. I am looking for a sub that will produce super tight, fast hitting bass to match the speakers. After listening to Tone Loc's Wild Thing I heard the speakers bottom out horribly on the bass notes and new I seriously lacked a subwoofer.

Don't get me wrong the speakers sound awesome with almost anything that is thrown at them and sometimes I dont even think they need a sub if you can believe that, to make a long story short I am looking for suggestions for a smaller sub that will provide tight, clean fast hitting bass without blowing the roof off. I looked into the matching focal sub but it only goes down to 40hz.

I have considered the Def Tech Pro sub 80, the Hsu Research STF 1, and several small M&K subs like the VX-7 series II. Someone also suggested the Canton AS22.

Anyhelp is greatly appreciated.

[skeptic]

"The problem is I would like to have more of a bass presence especially with the range down to around 25hz. The problem is that I live in a duplex and do not want to blow the neighbors sox off and get evicted. I am looking for a sub that will produce super tight, fast hitting bass to match the speakers."

That is a contradiction. The kind of bass you are looking for WILL blow the neighbor's socks off and you will sooner or later be looking for a new place to live unless you reach an accomodation with them such as what time they will not be around to get annoyed.

Try Parts Express. The Titanic III looks like a winner. If you can spend an hour building a very simple kit, you can save a couple of hundred bucks.

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....ge_ID=242#kits

[Redbeard]

True, what I ment was a sub with a smaller amp like the ones I stated. To rephrase: What is the best small sub for music and H/T based on tightness and musicality? My objective is to play the system when he is not home and keep it lower as to not knock his roof off when he is home. I want something that will simply round out my system.

[Eric Z]

You might have considered this already, but just want to be sure. Try not on buy HT equipment on where you live now (especially if you are renting- not sure if you're renting or not). The reason I mention this is what if you buy a smaller sub just to please your neighbors. Then move to a bigger place in the near future. Just my $.02!

Regarding the smaller subs (around 8"). I checked out the Def Tech PS80 and the Canton AS22. I ended up going with the PS80. The Canton was nice, but inferior to the PS80 IMO. I don't know much about the Hsu, but from what I read, it seems pretty nice! Fyi, the PS80 retails for around $350. Please do not pay that price. I got mine for $275 from an authorized dealer. If you have any questions about bargaining, please let me know.

Good luck and enjoy!
Eric

[Redbeard]

Thanks for the info, I just signed a two year lease and landlord lives next door- I hope to be here for a while, I do not mind selling and upgrading my speakers I am a freqeunt ebayer. I am really interested in the PS80 is the base tight? Some have said it is boomy at higher volumes? I used to own a paradigm PDR10 so that is all I have to compare it to, though I have heard many others.

[Eric Z]

From what I've heard the PS80 is pretty sensitive to placement. I've been remodeling for a little while so my HT equipment has been all over. Mine only sounds a little boomy at very high volumes with songs or movies that have loser bass (i.e some R&B or rap).

Remember that this is an entry level sub, so sometimes it's difficult to compare it to others. Make sure you compare apples to apples. Some reviews are negative because it doesn't sound like this $500 or $600 sub. It shouldn't sound like a $500 or $600 because it's only a $300 sub!!

Are you able to demo one at home? If I were to do it again, I would demo a PS80 and some other subs at home before making a final decision. I don't say this because I think it's not performing well; I say this before I want to ensure I'm making the best decision possible. It's also difficult to listen in the retail "showroom" because the odds are the room size and set up isn't exactly as yours at home.

In addition, I didn't have anything to compare the PS80 to. I only had 2 channel before the sub.

Good luck.

[goatspeed]

Take a look at a SVS 25-31pci. It has the kind of bass you are looking for. You'll have to keep it low...but you'll have that with whatever sub you look at, unless it's not very good.

[Redbeard]

Take a look at a SVS 25-31pci. It has the kind of bass you are looking for. You'll have to keep it low...but you'll have that with whatever sub you look at, unless it's not very good.

Thanks all for the info on the subs, PS80 sounds good but like they say its a $300 sub, that is why I was somewhat drawn towards the small M&K's very tight and deep, however some say overpriced. Goat you are absolutely right I am going to keep the volume low around 8 o'clock or so- I just want to add a little low base presence without breaking the bank or blowing the walls out. I looked for the above sub but could not find it on the web site. Anyone want to suggest a good sub that hits fast and tight and can be had for under $500 or so??? My main concern is that they can match the incredible tightness of the Focals.

[goatspeed]

Here's a link: http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pci_25-31.htm

It's a little over your price range, but you can order it and try it knowing you can send it back within 45 days for a full refund. I have a house and a little larger room, I went with the 20-39pc+ and find it to be fast and accurate, sounding perfect with my new Monitor Audio setup.

[Redbeard]

Thanks again.... Hey I recently stumbled across the Athena P2 subwoofer which has gotten excellent reviews- does anyone have any feedback on this before I order it?

[Redbeard]

Goat I like the sounds of the SVS suggestion but I dont think I could get away with having a 30" tall 16" diameter black bass tube sticking up in my living room, though I appreciate the suggestion and mulled it over for quite sometime before reality hit me (wife factor)....

[mtrycraft]

Thanks for the info, I just signed a two year lease and landlord lives next door- I hope to be here for a while, I do not mind selling and upgrading my speakers I am a freqeunt ebayer. I am really interested in the PS80 is the base tight? Some have said it is boomy at higher volumes? I used to own a paradigm PDR10 so that is all I have to compare it to, though I have heard many others.

You have a problem: you want good bass and you live in an apartment.

Buying a small sub with a small amp will not serve you much. It woun't go down to low frequencies that is audible and won't give you the punch you are looking for.

You could get a good sub and just throttle it back. When the complex is empty, you turn it up. You move and you already have a good sub

[chimera128]

That's why you use that sub for a bedroom system and upgrade when the time comes =). It's amazing how many times people recommend SVS subs when someone says they are looking for a small subwoofer. Not all of us want a refrigerator-sized (even a beer fridge sized ) subwoofer in our living rooms. Now I could understand it if the guy says he wants a good performing cheap subwoofer, but he clearly stated something small that goes to the 25hz range. In terms of blowing out the neighbors, that is when we ellicit the little knob commonly known as "volume". I have no experience with Athena subs, but I would definitely listen to it before you buy it if at all possible. Though reviews can be helpful at best and give you a direction in terms of which subs you might want to add to your list, remember that it is your list and your ears that will have to live with that sub. $300 is $300 and I don't know anyone that would want to have a $300 piece of crap in their living room. If you do decide to go with a Definitive Technology model I would at least get the ProSub 100TL. You should be able to get it for around $350 or so. M.S.R.P. is just a suggestion and I'm sure most of us have never bought our equipment at retail (at least I hope so or I owe the salesperson an apology () =)). Don't be afraid to ask for 20% off, although I would try to find an ad at a local store offering at least 10% or so before you do it. Ultimate Electronics usually runs an ad of at least 10% off Definitive Technology products, and I have been able to negotiate prices down on most other brands of speakers as well. I just haven't bought them. Whatever you end up getting I hope that it fits your needs and brings a smile to your face. Good luck!

[Redbeard]

Thanks for the help gentlemen, I do agree with the suggestions of turning the volume low and then cranking it up when they aren't around. I also like the one of using it in a bedroom system after becasue I am a music nut and love building and listening to systems. These are great suggestions thanks alot....Any subwoofer suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[RGA]

I gotta say I would seriously look at the Titanic Kit mentioned by Skeptic - for what it appears you're getting it is significant for the money - the thing looks like it would take less than an hour to put together - a couple of screws here and there. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...Number=300-762

The woofer alone is $160.00.

If it wasn't for the fact that I would be nailed such high import duty and dollar conversion I would look at this for my eventual home theater system - It also comes with its own parametric EQ which you will need to properly set-up your sub.

[skeptic]

You're scaring me RGA.
You're agreeing with me.
You're taking the same view I am.
You're acting civil towards me.
You're being nice to me.
I don't like that.

(Where are those emoticons when you need them?--Remember Paul Linde's tv commercial for Chemical bank? Sorry, probably before your time.)

[RGA]

You're scaring me RGA.
You're agreeing with me.
You're taking the same view I am.
You're acting civil towards me.
You're being nice to me.
I don't like that.

(Where are those emoticons when you need them?--Remember Paul Linde's tv commercial for Chemical bank? Sorry, probably before your time.)

I agree with a lot of what you have to say as I do with Mrty and Woochifer among others. The sub looks like good value for the dollar - and you can return it within 45 days if you don't like it.

I will be trying kits down the road - because if some 12 year old girl in china can build it then damn it so should I be able to. It's ben 13 years since I've held a soldering iron however.

I have seen $1800.00 Subwoofers that look considerably worse than the Titanic's. Unfortunately it's tough to say how they'll sound - but for home theater all I really would want is bone crushing depth.

[mtrycraft]

I agree with a lot of what you have to say as I do with Mrty and Woochifer among others.





I will be trying kits down the road - because if some 12 year old girl in china can build it then damn it so should I be able to. It's ben 13 years since I've held a soldering iron however.

She probably has more hands on experience though She might also have better tools to put it together


but for home theater all I really would want is bone crushing depth.

Then you want it large and powerful.
Tom Nousaine has 6 or 8 15" or 18" in the basement with a chimney up to the listeing room The chimney had to be highly reinforced as it was buckling
Written up in a mag a while back.

[Redbeard]

Does anyone on this post have any experience with the Dayton audio subs? Specifically the titanics? I am particularly interested in how the case looks, Hsu should get a clue and use some gloss for their products rather than that krinkle black crappy finish. Speakers should be like fine furniture....

RGA if i were in the UK I would definately look up MJ Acoustics subs, to bad they don't sell them in the us....

[Woochifer]

As others have pointed out, getting down to 25 Hz and keeping things quiet for next door neighbors is a contradiction in terms. The wavelengths for notes that low are such that they easily travel through walls and interact in unpredictable ways both within your room and as they pass through walls into adjoining areas. A bass note that sounds normal from your listening position could actually sound louder and unbearably boomy next door. That's just the way that room acoustics work. In my house, I use a parametric equalizer to eliminate the room induced peaks at my listening position, but that doesn't stop the bass from sounding much boomier in the kitchen.

As far as which model to go with, there are plenty of very small subwoofers (cubes less than 12") that can still belt out notes that go way deep. REL, Velodyne, and Sunfire among others make tiny subwoofers that can go past 25 Hz. But, these models are very expensive (the Velodynes and Sunfires I believe start around $1,500), and therein lies the rub. In order to get that kind of extension from a small cabinet size, they rely on drivers with very long throws and require very powerful amps to get that decent output. Components that meet those requirements aren't cheap. It's easier to go with a larger cabinet and driver. It will give you the same extension, not require as powerful an amp, and cost less, but you got that large cabinet to deal with.

If you want a "tighter" sounding sub, then you'll probably want to go with a sealed sub because of their generally quicker transient response. Their advantages are that tighter sound, and more extended lows. Their disadvantages are that they are less efficient, the bass begins to drop off sooner than with a ported sub (but declines slower), and they can have higher distortion as the driver excursion increases in the lower frequencies. Those smaller high output subs that I mentioned are all sealed designs. If you're looking for something less expensive, then your range of options is very limited since your price point appears to be around $500. I have one of Adire's $400 Rava subs, which is a 12" sealed sub that has serviceable output well below 25 Hz. However, it is 18" on the outside, which might be too big for what you're looking for.

One option that seems to fit all of your requirements is the $600 Rocket UFW-10. It is a sealed 10" sub with an exterior dimension of 13" and available in a gloss rosewood or maple finish. From what I've read, it has decent extension (not quite as deep as the SVS, Hsu, or Adire options, but still very good) and it looks good.

http://www.av123.com/products_produc...rs&product=1.1

If you're looking at DIY options and looks are a priority, then I suggest that you contact some other sources as well. Acoustic Visions is one of Adire's major resellers and they offer a wide variety of finishes with their cabinets. Of course, the cost escalates once you opt for fancy veneers and better looking finishes.

http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~aco...painting.shtml

And as for why Hsu subs have ugly finishes. The answer is simple -- the majority of people who opt for one of their lower level subs would rather save a few extra bucks than pay more for a fancier finish. The Hsus have a great reputation for how they sound, and for around $350, their performance is what people are looking for. If you want the option for a better looking cabinet, then their $800 VTF-3 model is available in a piano black finish or rosewood veneer. Of course, that will cost you extra.

[mtrycraft]

I am particularly interested in how the case looks, Hsu should get a clue and use some gloss for their products rather than that krinkle black crappy finish. Speakers should be like fine furniture....

....

Well, a speakers finis is indeed an artistic touch to it. Maybe they should offer that option? Would that add to the cost?

[Redbeard]

When looking at the Titanic subwoofers from Parts Express I am confused, what is a parametric equalizer? I notice the 12" which is a bit big for my room but the 10" which is more in my price range and room size does not seem to include this equalizer. Is there any alternative to getting a parametric equalizer and is it absolutely neccessary????

Still Confused as to which sub to by, I would like no more than $500 less is better and smaller cabinet is better 12" square. I have a smaller room 10x12 with hardwood floors and a large brick walled fire place. Sounds travel easy so very high output is not necessary. Sub would be 60/40 for music/movie. Might not even use it on movies if it is to loud.

[RGA]

It helps you position your sub - you can do it by ear but it tales longer - a true parametric EQ would allow you to basically hack off certain frequencies or raise them just like a graphic equalizer. Sort of an EQ for bass frequencies.

It is not truly necessary for home theater - but it would be very handy for music - especially if you're limited to where you can place the sub. I am personally not a fan of matching subs for 2 channel music listening.

[drseid]

>>One option that seems to fit all of your requirements is the $600 Rocket UFW-10. It is a sealed 10" sub with an exterior dimension of 13" and available in a gloss rosewood or maple finish. From what I've read, it has decent extension (not quite as deep as the SVS, Hsu, or Adire options, but still very good) and it looks good.

http://www.av123.com/products_produ...ers&product=1.1>>

I second the Rocket UFW-10 suggestion...

This sub is not going to be the be all, end all for HT super low bass... but it is very musical, and goes down to 25-28 hz nicely.

I will say that the fit and finish is superb, and it looks much better in person than on the av123 website. My mom liked the looks of the sub quite a bit (and she absolutely hates the look of most hi-fi gear).

My dad is using one I bought him with some very large standmount speakers he and I built out of Focal drivers, and the combination for music is quite impressive. Definitely worth consideration for your purposes, IMO.

Another possible option is the ACI Force sub. It is a bit pricey, but ACI makes some great products, and they also look quite nice.

---Dave

[bobhaze]

Check out the Cambridge SoundWorks P500.
http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/s...zzz&type=store
It's a sealed box with dual 8" woofers on opposing sides. As a result, it doesn't transmit mechanical vibrations into the floor, which can be a great help in an apartment. I don't have this model, but my brother-in law does so I've had lots of opportunities to listen. It's one of the cleanest sounding woofers I've heard and IMHO is more than competitive with a lot of the well known and highly reviewed woofers in just about every area except maximum SPL capability. CSW has an in-home trial period so you can audition it at home where it counts instead of in a store with unknown acoustics and the wrong electronics.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW