Recommend me some good subs around $600.

[Grandpaw]

Guys, Guys, Guys....you want Boom Times. Just get one of these and have it done with.

I never thought about placing my center channel vertical to get more bass out of it, but doesn't it still need to be next to my TV? LMAO, Jeff

[nightflier]

Kex, drseid,

I should not forget to add that my testing was done some time ago using what was then pretty much the best that SVS had to offer. I've been an SVS evangelical ever since and that does cloud my better judgement. Since it is now in my HT room, it has become the family sub, rather than my 2-channel music listening sub...

As much as I enjoy the SVS, I am also realizing that my esthetic tastes are changing and I am actually looking to replace this sub because of its size to one of the box subs from SVS or any of their competitors. I'm curious to know how the sealed box subs from SVS compare to the likes of ACI, Rel, Dayton (and Rocket?) on music.

Yes, it's for the "family HT" room, but that is also the only place that I can enjoy SACD in surround.

[drseid]

Kex, drseid,

I should not forget to add that my testing was done some time ago using what then was the pretty much best that SVS had to offer. I've been an SVS evangelical ever since and that does cloud my better judgement. Since it is now in my HT room, it has become the family sub, rather than my 2-channel music listening sub...

As much as I enjoy the SVS, I am also realizing that my esthetic tastes are changing and I am actually looking to replace this sub because of its size to one of the box subs from SVS or any of their competitors. I'm curious to know how the sealed box subs from SVS compare to the likes of ACI, Rel, Dayton (and Rocket?) on music.

Yes, it's for the "family HT" room, but that is also the only place that I can enjoy SACD in surround.

I'll have to defer to Kex or others on this one, as the new sealed sub from SVS is one I have not heard yet (although it is on my list of things that I must hear soon). All of my SVS sub experience has been with the ported varieties...

---Dave

[kexodusc]

I'll have to defer to Kex or others on this one, as the new sealed sub from SVS is one I have not heard yet (although it is on my list of things that I must hear soon). All of my SVS sub experience has been with the ported varieties...

---Dave

I'm only aware of the 1 sealed model, SB-12 Plus model for $700-$800.
It's not even available yet, but it certainly LOOKS impressive and it's nice to see SVS finally offer a sealed sub. This shows me they're less concerned about the horsepower race and more about the product.
It may or may not exceed the ACI, REL stuff, I personally doubt it at that price, but the comparable ACI's for example are $1100 +. Out of many people's price range. Looking at the specs, I think it could give the 12" Titanic kit a run for it's money. The Titanic has a larger, and higher quality amp and I'm sure plays louder (they were designed with low distorion, hi output in mind), but wouldn't be surprised if the SVS sounded as good in most rooms. The price is certainly appealing, for only $200 more you get a pre-assembled, vinyl finished SVS sub that would at least be very close in most aspects to the Titanic kit. That is impressive considering SVS probably builds these for around $400 or so depending on the finish. I see a lot of $700-$800 commercial subs likely cost aroundn $200 to throw together. I can't wait to hear one, but it could be quite awhile since I don't know anyone shopping for subs in my area.

If it were me, I would consider spending $200 on a 500 watt Bash amp, mate it with a $130, Dayton Reference - Hi Fi 12" woofer (or hi-output version if so desired), and buy a $115 cabinet (or build and finish a better one for $40-$60) and for under $400 you have a provend design, 12" sealed sub that leaves $1200 sealed subs behind. If size permits, step up to a 15" woofer that would likely sound better and be cheaper (it costs money packing good performance into small packages) Or if you want to spend $700-$800, go with a 12" or 15" TC Sounds or Adire woofer or something crazy and never look back.

[46minaudio]

If you are thinkin DIY give this site a look also...
http://www.tcsounds.com/tc3000.htm

[nightflier]

Kex, just out of curiosity, if I were to go the Dayton route, any inexpensive & simple upgrades to their basic 12" kit that would help improve on their design? I was thinking about anything less involved than soldering, maybe better bracing, damping, and padding options?

I'm not sold on this option yet, but the $200 difference would buy a nice pair of interconnects or maybe a dinner out on the town with the wife...

[GMichael]

the $200 difference would buy a nice pair of interconnects or maybe a dinner out on the town with the wife...

Or the 15 incher?

[Rock789]

how do the dayton titantic subs compare with themselves? (10" 12" & 15")
is the 10" tighter than the 12" & 15"
is the 15" able to reproduce much lower than the 10"?

on another note...
when building your own sub, is it best to use an amp such as the Dayton HSPA1000, or use a normal amp (NAD, ADCOM, whatever...) and use a crossover prior to the amp?

thanks,
Mike

[kexodusc]

Kex, just out of curiosity, if I were to go the Dayton route, any inexpensive & simple upgrades to their basic 12" kit that would help improve on their design? I was thinking about anything less involved than soldering, maybe better bracing, damping, and padding options?

I'm nost sold on this option yet, but the $200 difference would buy a nice pair of interconnects or maybe a dinner out on the town with the wife...

How loud do you play your subs? Bracing and damping are overdone too often IMO. The returns on damping affect on acoustic performance are very diminishing after 3/4" MDF (though front baffles benefit from 1.5 - 2 inch thickness). If you took 10 golden ears and told them to tell which 12" titanic kit used Acousta-stuff or Acoustic foam, which had shelf bracing, which used 1" MDF, etc, they couldn't.

There's no soldering in the Titanic I can remember...just spring clips and screwing in the hardware as I recall....been 2 years though.

Honestly the best thing money wise would be to not use the 12" Titanic woofer. It's a good woofer and has it's place. But it's really a home theater woofer that does music well, rather than a musical woofer that does HT well (being nitpicky here). The Reference woofers are far superior and cheaper.

If you have room, I would consider the 15" kit they have: now:http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=300-770
Swap the 15" woofer in that for the 15" Quatro...At under $300 you have a sealed sub that will hit the low 22 Hz or so (depending on your room of course, I get 20 Hz) and sound better than the 12" Titanic, and only (arguably) be second in maximum SPL and distortion at loud volumes. But at almost 1/2 the price buy 2 and brag to your friends, or throw in a BFD. This is similar to what replaced my PW-2200. Don't worry about the 240 watt thing - it's a class AB amp, not the goofy alphabet class sub amps like BASH and other make, and the woofer has higher sensitivity which means you don't need to spend as much money on a high wattage amp (hence the cost savings).

Or put something together yourself...You can order the cabinet, a 1000 watt sub amp that Doesn't require a cutout (it's a rack mount amp) and any driver you want. Stuffing is easy to find at a hardware store. All you may need is a someone with a plunge router who can cut a big circle. If you're really interested in a custom built cabinet, there are DIY-ers people in most cities that will build them for you, better and cheaper (sometimes for a few beer).

Speakers are complex, but building a sub is fairly straightforward with computer modeling these days. There's other kits out there, I'm just not familiar with them. THey may be better. The Titanics have been around awhile now.

Worst case, I would still argue that a 12" Titanic Kit, with a $80-$100 Behringer Feedback Destroyer for 3 or 4 parametric filters would sound significantly better than a $700 SVS sealed sub without full parametric EQ (those built in features just don't do as well). And you'd save $100 or more. Try buying some Acousta-Stuff, or rigid fiberglass (or even the pink stuff) to fill it instead of the foam which isn't that great.

[kexodusc]

how do the dayton titantic subs compare with themselves? (10" 12" & 15")
is the 10" tighter than the 12" & 15"
is the 15" able to reproduce much lower than the 10"?

on another note...
when building your own sub, is it best to use an amp such as the Dayton HSPA1000, or use a normal amp (NAD, ADCOM, whatever...) and use a crossover prior to the amp?

thanks,
Mike

IF anything the larger subs are tighter..the notion that smaller woofers are "tighter" than larger ones is false. I use to hold the same opinion, but in reality, it's other factors, not the physical size that contribute to the "tightness". The larger woofers will have better transient response all things equal. They move more air, they require less movement because they are bigger to move the same amount of air..that means the start/stop time and distance travelled is less, considerably less - hence "tighter".

The 10" Titanic I really can't recommend if HT is in the mix....it's a good bass reinforcer for stereo in small/mid rooms, and that's it. Not a great value really.

The 12" is still a good option...the 15" is better. The larger woofers do go significantly lower and play louder and cleaner than the smaller woofers.

I'd use a dedicated sub amp for sub duties - they're built with high-current/low impedance loads in mind, have the phase and xo adjustments, LFE in etc...And they're cheaper than even quality used power amps of comparable wattage. But if you have some lying around or can get some really cheap, nothing wrong with using an amp for sub duty if you're sure it can handle the load.

[kexodusc]

Didn't LJ buy a 12" Titanic Kit? Who are some of the other AR.com-ers with experience with these who could chime in and recommend them? I haven't seen "Sealed" around here in quite some time, but you can search him and his review of the 15" kit I believe.
There's a few others, can't remember who.

[GMichael]

Didn't LJ buy a 12" Titanic Kit? Who are some of the other AR.com-ers with experience with these who could chime in and recommend them? I haven't seen "Sealed" around here in quite some time, but you can search him and his review of the 15" kit I believe.
There's a few others, can't remember who.

LJ put the 10" together for his bedroom. He seemed to love it.

How about the 1000w amp mated with 2 of the 15" Reference woofers in a sealed box?

[kexodusc]

LJ put the 10" together for his bedroom. He seemed to love it.

How about the 1000w amp mated with 2 of the 15" Reference woofers in a sealed box?

Hmmm, could I suppose if they, but how would you wire them? Two woofers in parallel would present some very low, 1-2 ohm loads, in series would cut the power of the amp...I'd just build 2 separate subs with a 500 watt Bash or AB amp in each. Or use 4 woofers to in parallel, series configuration...yeah, then you'd boom just fine. You'd probably get better results. One 15" would be enough for most of us.

[GMichael]

Hmmm, could I suppose if they, but how would you wire them? Two woofers in parallel would present some very low, 1-2 ohm loads, in series would cut the power of the amp...I'd just build 2 separate subs with a 500 watt Bash or AB amp in each. Or use 4 woofers to in parallel, series configuration...yeah, then you'd boom just fine. You'd probably get better results. One 15" would be enough for most of us.

I was thinking of that last night. They would have to be in series. Maybe 2 of the 12".

Do you feel that the Bash 500w is better than the Dayton 500w? Or did you suggest the Bash because it cost less?

I think I'll just go with the kit when I finally pull the trigger. Wifee got tired of all the sawdust last time.

[kexodusc]

I prefer the Dayton 500 watt because it has a class AB output stage, more hi-fi oriented. It will handle sustained high current demands better. It is of higher quality throughout. It weighs 3 times as much (that matters to some people).

But I wouldn't hesitate to use a BASH amp for sub duty, it's fairly priced and will do the job for most normal sub applications. It's light and cheap, part of the reason they're so popular. Hi-fidelity is moot point since bass is more forgiving anyway.

[Rock789]

Are there other sub amps in the same price range as Dayton 500/1000 with the same'ish quality?
Any larger sub amps you would suggest Kex?
Also, I have read the specs on the Dayton 1000, but does it really do ~1000 watts @ 4ohm? (I'm comparing to perhaps a NAD or Adcom amp again...)

Thanks,
Mike

[kexodusc]

Are there other sub amps in the same price range as Dayton 500/1000 with the same'ish quality?
Any larger sub amps you would suggest Kex?
Also, I have read the specs on the Dayton 1000, but does it really do ~1000 watts @ 4ohm? (I'm comparing to perhaps a NAD or Adcom amp again...)

Thanks,
Mike

I don't really know where else to look for plate amps other than MCM electronics. But I'm sure there's other ones out there. Tons of 200-300 watt amps, few above 500. Yes, the the 1000 watt amp will do 1000 watts @ 4 ohms, and no doubt far better than a NAD or Adcom could. They handle low impedance speakers, but handling bass full-time is something else. You'd spend more than $400 on a 1000 watt bridged, 4 ohm NAD or Adcom that had all the connecton features. What's a 200 watt per channel @ 8 ohm NAD running for these days?

Really though, why 1000 watts? Bragging rights? You guys really use that in your homes? I hit ear-bleeding levels long before 1000 watts. A lot of DIY-ers I know do fine with 200-240 watts and efficient woofers or multiple subs. If you're pushing 1000 watts, I think you'd benefit more from buying a cheaper BASH amp, and second woofer to get the extra SPL.

[Woochifer]

The choice of sub depends greatly on your room. Generally speaking, the smaller the room, the more that the room acoustics will favor going with a sealed sub. SVS has a very good reputation, and I like that they've announced a sealed sub.

It would be interesting to see how the SVS stacks up with the Rocket because they seem like they're aimed at different markets. SVS is clearly marketing the SB12-Plus as a small design-friendly option, and not going into the "musicality" of its sealed design. Contrastly, Rocket is very much touting the "quality" of the sealed approach. Part of this might be because Rocket does not make any ported subs, whereas SVS's entire lineup outside of the SB12-Plus is ported.

As Kex said though, whatever option you go with, some form of room correction will make a huge difference. No matter how much you spend or how well a sub performs, in the end, it's the room acoustics that will dictate how the sub actually sounds.

[darth2222]

So Wooch what your saying is that if you have bad room accustics and one placement option a BFD will help regulate the sound. Will a mic that comes with the reciever do the same thing or is the BFD a much better way to go. I have a 16x 20 room with vaulted celings, left side is open. So i have only one corner to put the sub in. Where can you buy the BFD. By the way for that room size should i go with a more powerful sub. Im stuck between either the SVS 20-39 Pci Plus or the 20-39 PCI the plus has a 525 BASH amp other has 325 BASH amp. The one thing i liked about the Plus is the 3 ports and that you can block them to change the overall sound. Would this be important with my room accustics the way they are to give me more flexibility with the sub.

[Woochifer]

So Wooch what your saying is that if you have bad room accustics and one placement option a BFD will help regulate the sound. Will a mic that comes with the reciever do the same thing or is the BFD a much better way to go. I have a 16x 20 room with vaulted celings, left side is open. So i have only one corner to put the sub in. Where can you buy the BFD. By the way for that room size should i go with a more powerful sub. Im stuck between either the SVS 20-39 Pci Plus or the 20-39 PCI the plus has a 525 BASH amp other has 325 BASH amp. The one thing i liked about the Plus is the 3 ports and that you can block them to change the overall sound. Would this be important with my room accustics the way they are to give me more flexibility with the sub.

At least with the Hsu models, those port plugs work in conjunction with an EQ switch on the sub amp that adjusts the response curve to keep it as flat as possble. Basically, one profile maximizes the output, while the other maximizes the bass extension. Whenever you plug a port, you fundamentally alter the response curve, and without some form of EQ the curve will deviate from a flat response. Of course, some listeners like these deviations and some combinations might give you a more desirable sound depending on your room and placement, so you could always experiment with different port profiles.

With regard to the BFD vs. the receiver's auto calibration, that wold depend on

1) how far into the bass range the calibration goes, as some of these auto calibrations do not work with the low frequencies (Yamaha's YPAO only equalizes down into the mid-80 Hz range, although their newly announced midlevel models extend down to the mid-60 Hz range);
2) how problematic your room conditions actually are (multiple peaks are better addressed by the BFD because it allows for up to 12 parametric filters); and
3) the degree to which you want to customize the bass profile (the BFD allows you to store multiple EQ profiles so that you can, for example, use one profile for action movies, another one for hip-hop music, and yet another one for other types of listening).

In general, the BFD gives you more flexibility. But, it does require a learning curve. Here's the website that has excellent pointers that will get you up to speed.

http://bfdguide.ws/

You can buy the BFD from Musician's Friend for $100. IMO, one of the best bargains out there in audio for the amount of performance improvement that it delivers.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...24P?sku=182467

With regard to the amount of amplification that you need, for your size room I think that the 325 watt amp would be more than enough, especially if you're using a ported sub, which is more efficient to begin with. Whether the extra $$$ is worth the features and potential flexibility is up to you. My room is 13'x18' with a partially open end, and I use a 250 watt sealed sub. This is plenty. But, it sounds like the Plus has more than just extra wattage if it also has three ports.