Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 45
  1. #1
    Mid-Fi
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    76

    Recommend me some good subs around $600.

    I think my next upgrdad will be my subwoofer. Now I am using a JBL PB12. It works fine, but sounds a little boomy ( I guess because I didn't own better sub). I love my Paradigm Studio 40 V3 and CC470. And I want a better sub to match those best valued Studios.

    I am thinking of following options:

    1. Dayton Titanic from Parts Express. ( I wonder if I will have difficulty to sell it when next upgrade since it is not a famous brand)

    2. A used Sunfire True Sub..

    3. A used Paradigm around that budget( I don't know which one is good except the expensive Servo15)

    I need the sub to be both good in HT and music. And it should have the best performance for the dollar like my Studio 40.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Forum Regular Grandpaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Ms.
    Posts
    189
    Take a look at these


    http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-isd.cfm


    A friend of mine just ordered this one.... Jeff
    http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-....cfm#extension
    I decided years ago I was only going to have two types of days...Very Good Days or just Plain Good Days. I just refuse to have bad ones!!!, Jeff

  3. #3
    Forum Regular elapsed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    542
    Might want to consider the HSU VTF-2

  4. #4
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Orange, CA
    Posts
    552
    Once again, my vote goes to the Outlaw LFM-1. This Hsu-designed sub is musical, powerful (325 watt BASH amp) and great looking. Available on-line for $579 from Outlaw Audio.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    2,671
    You're right about option 1. Nice subs if you plan to keep it. Zero resale value.

    Option 2...I'd not even consider one of those. Too many reliability issues and Bob Carver seems to go out of business every other week.

    Option 3 I'd forget about UNLESS you can find a Servo 15 in your price range. It's definitley the cream of the crop.

    So unless you can do option 3, go with one of the other options...Outlaw, SVS, or HSU. The Outlaw is probably the best bang for the buck.

  6. #6
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    below the noise floor
    Posts
    3,636
    I liked my Sunfire when I had it, but I think the next sub I'm getting is an SVS.
    Eschew fascism.
    Truth Will Out.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevef22
    you guys are crackheads.
    I remain,
    Peter aka Dusty Chalk

  7. #7
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    17
    Jeff, be sure to let us all know how that SVS works out for your buddy. I am giving very serious thought to getting one myself.

  8. #8
    Mutant from table 9
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    1,205
    SVS, HSU, ect are all good choices. But, you mentioned "boomy" was a problem and that you might want some resale. So I'm going to recommend a sub that I think is very nice, even if it is not a big as some that you were looking at, the Velodyne Minivee
    http://www.crutchfield.com/S-stdHncC...sp?i=232MINIVB

    At $800 retail, maybe a little more then you want to spend, but I think a speaker as refined as the Studio 40 deserves a little more. Actually, you can get it for significantly less on Ebay. Come to think of it, with the 40s, I would pony up the extra cash and I would go for the SPL-1200R with automatic room correction. http://cgi.ebay.com/VELODYNE-SPL-120...em180028452738

    That will kick the hell out of your upgradeitus.

  9. #9
    Mid-Fi
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    76
    Thanks Guys. Now I've got some ideas.

  10. #10
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Department of Heuristics and Research on Material Applications
    Posts
    9,025
    Quote Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
    You're right about option 1. Nice subs if you plan to keep it. Zero resale value.
    Not really...you might not sell it on ebay as easily, but from what I've experienced Dayton woofers and amps sell for as much or higher resale than the likes of SVS and Paradigm....Just visit the PE forum or any DIY site and put a for sale post up, there are thousands of DIY-ers...it'll be gone in 3 days or less. I've sold used woofers and plate amps for 60-85% of new price before with no problem at all. I've paid that much for used drivers and stuff too. That's more than my Paradigm Studio's or PW-2200 went for second hand. You may be out the $100 cabinet, then again, maybe not. The Titanics are well known across the continent now and there are a few DIY-ers who buy the finished versions 2nd hand - not every DIY-er builds their own cabinets...subs always sell fast..you still see the older Titanics selling for good money.

    Depends on how long you plan on keeping it I guess...Buying a sealed, commercial sub from SVS, Outlaw, or HSU, you'd have to spend an aweful lot more money to get the something better. My old HSU was nowhere close to my the 12" Titanic I built for my folks and cost more brand new. But if you're buying a HSU or SVS sub with idea of resale for upgrade in the near future, you should probably just save up and get the sub you want anyway - you'd be saving a lot of money.

    You could probably build something a lot better than the Titanics if you're so inclined - they're a great value and alternative to a lot of higher priced commercial stuff, but they've been surpassed by other DIY offerings. They're equally suited for music and home theater - probably more versatile than most ported sub offerings in that regard - SVS subs are excellent for home theater, but aren't quite as good for music. A Titanic might not play quite as low as an SVS on account of the sealed design, but the sound quality is definitely better. Transient response and "tightness" or "bass-definition" or whatever you want to call it are the strengths. Bit of a trade-off. Of course if you got the 15" Titanic you'd be fine.
    For $600 you could easily build a crazy ass subwoofer that you couldn't buy in a store for over $2000. Might have to ask yourself how much you really care about owning a brand name.
    My 15" subs cost $250 each to build, and are better than $800 subs I've bought. Not as good as the Titanic for Home Theater, but definitely a step up on them for music, that was a trade-off I wanted. Personally, when you get down to 23 Hz or lower at 100 dB for movie effects, it's all the same to me, I haven't thought twice about it.

    These days though, there's a lot of pretty good $600 and under subs that would have cost a lot more just 5 years ago. Look how many people are selling subs now. Easy to desing and build, and not quite as much mark-up anymore. Subs have improved more than anything else in audio in the past several years IMO. I don't think you'll be disappointed whatever direction you go.

  11. #11
    3db
    3db is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Posts
    527

    The PSB Subsonic6i bests the Outlaw LFM1 by quite a margin

    Quote Originally Posted by RoyY51
    Once again, my vote goes to the Outlaw LFM-1. This Hsu-designed sub is musical, powerful (325 watt BASH amp) and great looking. Available on-line for $579 from Outlaw Audio.
    and within 50$ of the price of the Oultaw. According to a subwoofer shoot out in Sound and Vision, the PSB Subsonic 6i played lower, louder, cleaner and had a more uniform freqquecny response curve compared to all the other subs in that price range. The LFM-1 ran 2nd place.

  12. #12
    SuperPoser Rock789's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    608
    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    My 15" subs cost $250 each to build, and are better than $800 subs I've bought. Not as good as the Titanic for Home Theater, but definitely a step up on them for music, that was a trade-off I wanted. Personally, when you get down to 23 Hz or lower at 100 dB for movie effects, it's all the same to me, I haven't thought twice about it.
    I don't suppose you would share your design
    HT: Anthem AVM 50 / PVA-7; Focal JM Lab 4x Chorus 716 S, CC 700 S, 2x Chorus 706S; 2x 12s - Homebuilt Sub
    2CH: B&K PT3 s2, Anthem PVA-2, VonSchweikert VR-1
    Computer: Denon AVR 2805, Old Tecnic & Optimus Speakers
    2004 KTM 200 SX
    2003 Spyder
    2002 Single Cab, 3" cornfed lift, 34"LTB & 31" AT's
    ONLINE PHOTO ALBUM

  13. #13
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Orange, CA
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by 3db
    and within 50$ of the price of the Oultaw. According to a subwoofer shoot out in Sound and Vision, the PSB Subsonic 6i played lower, louder, cleaner and had a more uniform freqquecny response curve compared to all the other subs in that price range. The LFM-1 ran 2nd place.
    I auditioned the PSB Subsonic 6i (along with a few others in this price range) and it was a very impressive unit. On movies, it sounded very similar to the Outlaw. With music, however, the Outlaw sounded faster, more responsive. Given that the LFM-1 is more powerful (325 watts compared to 225 watts), has a higher peak wattage (1000 watts compared to 600 watts), plays lower (25 hz compared to 29 hz), is drop-dead gorgeous, more nimble, AND sells for $50 less, I don't think that I'll be trading it in for the 6i anytime soon.

    By the way, have you ever noticed how many and how large the PSB ads are in S&V? Something to consider...
    Last edited by RoyY51; 09-19-2006 at 09:26 AM.

  14. #14
    Forum Regular Grandpaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Ms.
    Posts
    189
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfanga
    Jeff, be sure to let us all know how that SVS works out for your buddy. I am giving very serious thought to getting one myself.
    The sub has been pre ordered but they won't start shipping them untill some time in October. The system he will be using it on will be for two channel stereo, so that will be the only way I hear it. It is for Bingo and he is not interested in home theater, but I will still let you know what I think of it, Jeff


    He likes orchestras and violins
    I decided years ago I was only going to have two types of days...Very Good Days or just Plain Good Days. I just refuse to have bad ones!!!, Jeff

  15. #15
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Department of Heuristics and Research on Material Applications
    Posts
    9,025

    Sure....

    Quote Originally Posted by Rock789
    I don't suppose you would share your design
    Not my design at all, but it's the extremely popular value-leading Dayton Quatro 15" woofer and a 240 watt plate amp...make your cabinet anywhere from 2.5 to 3.5 cubic ft internal volume - (I went 3.5 for a low Q of 0.67). 3/4" MDF is fine, I like double thicking the front baffle. I used a shelf brace at the midpoint and some shims at corners.

    There's been a zillion of these made, and every audio website I visit has a few people with this design. I have no idea who thought to combo them up first. For all but the largest rooms they'll rock the house, but the low xmax design and good efficiency make this a stellar woofer for music. There's better designs out there, but not for the money, yet. Throw in a Behringer Feedback Destroyer for Parametric EQ and you have a total bass solution for any room at less than $350. My old HSU VTF-2 and Paradigm PW-2200 were great for movies, and definitely added some punch to some forms of music, but they had that typical boomy sub "hangover" effect that a lot of ported designs have. For half the price I got more bottome extension, better sound definition, more output and full parametric equalization.

    This works great for people who want their home theater to tackle music as well. Of course, you can spend a bit more and do better, but this was the best cost/performance benefit I could find at the time. My critical music listening is done on my 2-channel rig.

  16. #16
    nightflier
    Guest

    SVS for music

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    SVS subs are excellent for home theater, but aren't quite as good for music. A Titanic might not play quite as low as an SVS on account of the sealed design, but the sound quality is definitely better. Transient response and "tightness" or "bass-definition" or whatever you want to call it are the strengths. Bit of a trade-off. Of course if you got the 15" Titanic you'd be fine.
    Kex,

    This has been a common misconception about SVS ever since they were selling exclusively cylinder subs. However, this is almost always due to tuning and location.

    When I first auditioned an SVS sub, I spent hours, days trying out different combinations and there was not a sub-$1000 sub that compared. I put it up against a $1200 Paradigm, as well as subs from Infinity, Velodyne, and Klipsch and it was faster, tighter, and more acurate than any other sub. I used music samples that are well into the low 20Hz range and the SVS sub was phenominal. I didn't plan on purchasing it because it was so large & ugly, but there was no better bang for the buck, literally. I spent hours on the phone and online talking to the sales reps from the subs to tune and place them optimally in the room, and the SVS still came out on top each time.

    Of course, I am now stuck with a 4 foot water-cooler sized box in my room and I am having to make the hard choice of finding a box that will perform as well. I'm considering all the subs mentioned here, including the Outlaw, SVS, and Daytons but I seriously doubt that I'll find an equally capable sub in a smaller box. SVS makes one incredible cylinder sub, especially for music, and I have to believe that the company will maintain that reputation in their box subs.

    Let us know what you end up with and how you like it.

  17. #17
    Mid-Fi
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    76
    "For $600 you could easily build a crazy ass subwoofer that you couldn't buy in a store for over $2000."

    That is really persuading.

    Kex,

    Can you give us some examples among commercial subs that have about-equal performance as the $534 12" and $688 15" Titanic?

    15" Titanic seems to be so good that I can stick with for a long time...

  18. #18
    Tyler Acoustics Fan drseid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    823
    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Kex,

    This has been a common misconception about SVS ever since they were selling exclusively cylinder subs. However, this is almost always due to tuning and location.

    When I first auditioned an SVS sub, I spent hours, days trying out different combinations and there was not a sub-$1000 sub that compared. I put it up against a $1200 Paradigm, as well as subs from Infinity, Velodyne, and Klipsch and it was faster, tighter, and more acurate than any other sub. I used music samples that are well into the low 20Hz range and the SVS sub was phenominal. I didn't plan on purchasing it because it was so large & ugly, but there was no better bang for the buck, literally. I spent hours on the phone and online talking to the sales reps from the subs to tune and place them optimally in the room, and the SVS still came out on top each time.

    Of course, I am now stuck with a 4 foot water-cooler sized box in my room and I am having to make the hard choice of finding a box that will perform as well. I'm considering all the subs mentioned here, including the Outlaw, SVS, and Daytons but I seriously doubt that I'll find an equally capable sub in a smaller box. SVS makes one incredible cylinder sub, especially for music, and I have to believe that the company will maintain that reputation in their box subs.

    Let us know what you end up with and how you like it.
    Certainly can't argue with the "bang for the buck" comment, as SVS is tough to beat there IMO...

    I do have to agree with Kex about them being better for HT than music. Of course, everything is relative... Out of the subs you mentioned/auditioned Nightflier, I too would have probably picked the SVS over them for music as well (as SVS is still quite capable in that area too). That said, other brands can handle music *better* than the SVS IMO like ACI, REL and Rocket, etc. I would pick SVS over all three if my primary use was HT, but if music was my priority I would most likely look at one of those first (although ACI and REL cant be had new for $600 or less). Also building a sub from scratch for $600 can yield some great results if you know what you are doing.

    ---Dave
    Integra DHC-40.2 Pre/Pro
    Coda 2 X 200 Watt Amp
    Rotel RB-985 5 X 100 Watt Amp
    2 Tyler Acoustics 2 Piece Linbrook Signature System
    1 Tyler Linbrook Signature Center Channel
    3 Tyler Taylo Reference Monitors
    1 ACI Titan II Sub
    Toshiba HD-A1 HD DVD
    Panasonic BDT-210 + 350 Blu-ray
    Consonance Droplet CDP-5.0
    Sony 55NX-810 1080p 3D-LED HDTV

    Office:
    Opera Audio Consonance CD-120
    Jolida 1301A 2 X 30 Watt Int. Amp (Sovtek Tubes)
    Opera Audio Consonance Eric-1 Speakers

  19. #19
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Department of Heuristics and Research on Material Applications
    Posts
    9,025
    Nightflier - I've heard no fewer than a dozen SVS subs - seems SVS has stolen the torch from Velodyne the past few years, pretty much all my non-DIY ing friends own SVS with a few Paradigms and HSU in the mix. I really like the subs (didn't at first), even the cylinders. THey are very cleverly designed, and well tuned. And they sound better for music than many ported subs do - probably a reason for their popularity - but they are just outclassed for music reproduction by a well designed sealed sub IMO. This isn't so much a knock on SVS, as it is on ported subs in general. They have certain limitations With the exception of possibly dual-chamber reflex designs and some transmission lines, but to my knowledge nobody build those at an affordable level.
    The flipside is the output, extension and power for the money SVS delivers - hard to beat. Sealed subs are at a disadvantage to SVS and other porteds in that department unless you spend more money or go very large. They tend to work better in smaller rooms. Porteds tend to work better in larger rooms. Just physics.

    I agree with drseid ACI and REL offer much better sounding subwoofers, IMO, but they probably aren't the best compromise for people who use their systems for Home Theater 50% of the time. Power, output, and "fun factor" are a subs biggest selling feature, especially in stores, and when $1200 sealed sub won't play as loud or as low as a $600 sub during Jurassic Park, it's hard to sell. Probably why we don't see many in stores.

    FWIW, I'm strongly considering replacing my HT sealed sub with a newer ported sub and moving it to my stereo system for some of these reasons. You don't tow trailers with cars, you don't get good gas mileage with trucks. Ported/sealed subs are similar in that regard - certain design traits lend themselves to certain applications a bit better than others.
    Last edited by kexodusc; 09-20-2006 at 04:50 AM.

  20. #20
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Department of Heuristics and Research on Material Applications
    Posts
    9,025
    Quote Originally Posted by minye
    "For $600 you could easily build a crazy ass subwoofer that you couldn't buy in a store for over $2000."

    That is really persuading.

    Kex,

    Can you give us some examples among commercial subs that have about-equal performance as the $534 12" and $688 15" Titanic?

    15" Titanic seems to be so good that I can stick with for a long time...
    There are many designs out there that offer better this or better that....depends what you're looking for. The Titanics aren't bad or obsolete by any means, they're just designed to offer wide appeal rather than tailor made to certain preferences.
    The most popular from the Parts Express/Dayton crowd these days is the new Reference line of subs - here's a good project that will offer significantly better sound and most of the output and extension of the Titanics in a smaller box. These are all the rage in Dayton world right now - and again arguably the best value in performance subs (Dayton's big on value).
    http://www.partsexpress.com/projects...ake/index.html

    There are better woofers and designs out there than this though, depends what you want and what your budget is:
    Just google Adire, TCSound, Dayton, Ascendant Audio, Brahma, and you'll find plenty of projects soon enough.

  21. #21
    3db
    3db is offline
    Forum Regular
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Posts
    527

    Outlaw since updated their LFM-1 since the subshoot out out

    Quote Originally Posted by RoyY51
    I auditioned the PSB Subsonic 6i (along with a few others in this price range) and it was a very impressive unit. On movies, it sounded very similar to the Outlaw. With music, however, the Outlaw sounded faster, more responsive. Given that the LFM-1 is more powerful (325 watts compared to 225 watts), has a higher peak wattage (1000 watts compared to 600 watts), plays lower (25 hz compared to 29 hz), is drop-dead gorgeous, more nimble, AND sells for $50 less, I don't think that I'll be trading it in for the 6i anytime soon.

    By the way, have you ever noticed how many and how large the PSB ads are in S&V? Something to consider...

    This review was done about 3 -4 years ago . Reviewing the specs of both, it seems the Outlaw has considerable more grunt now than it did during the shootout. Your posts of the subsonic6i specs were partially incorrect;
    Amplifier Power
    Continuous 225 Watts
    Dynamic 350 Watts
    Dynamic Peak 700 Watts

    I also noticed the Outlaws adds are also as prominent as PSBs ...

  22. #22
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Department of Heuristics and Research on Material Applications
    Posts
    9,025
    Quote Originally Posted by 3db
    This review was done about 3 -4 years ago . Reviewing the specs of both, it seems the Outlaw has considerable more grunt now than it did during the shootout. Your posts of the subsonic6i specs were partially incorrect;
    Amplifier Power
    Continuous 225 Watts
    Dynamic 350 Watts
    Dynamic Peak 700 Watts

    I also noticed the Outlaws adds are also as prominent as PSBs ...
    I'd pay much less attention to the power output (especially peak power) and more to the sensitivity of the woofers if given. If not take the peak SPL output spec and work backwards.
    The LFM-1 write-up I have claims 115 dB with ideal positioning and placement with room gain - ie: in a corner.
    Let's subtract the 6 dB or so corner gain, and we're at a healthy 109 max at Dynamic peak 700 power...working down to 1 watt I get around 82 - 85 dB sensitivity being generous - rather common for many 12" subs.

    The PSB specs only claim 111 dB max SPL at a ridiculous 100 Hz (above most subs operating range) and no further details provided. Given the peak power of 700 watts as well, I'd assume the Outlaw has a bit more real output capability. In real terms, both will top 100 dB in most rooms and that's probably enough for most people. Which one sound better is another question all together. I've heard neither.

    By comparison, my modest sub is powered by a 240 watt unit, but at 88-91 dB sensitivity it has no problem topping 112 dB anechoic (ie: no room gain) at 40 Hz and 240 watts <1% distortion...(I think peak power is 500 or something but those figures are unreliable). If I added 3 db for peak power and 6 dB for room gain I'm at 121 dB (too loud). Theory is a wonderful thing.

    All this to say sub specs are too misleading and unreliable since there aren't really any conventional measurement standards. When you get into peak power you're sub is gonna be distorting and probably approaching it's mechanical limitations which throws sound quality to hell.

    These days manufacturers throw inexpensive high-watt odd-ball digital style amps in subs with inefficient woofers and hope the 1000 watts or more acts as a selling feature.

  23. #23
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Cheshire
    Posts
    1,602
    Guys, Guys, Guys....you want Boom Times. Just get one of these and have it done with.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  24. #24
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Department of Heuristics and Research on Material Applications
    Posts
    9,025
    Quote Originally Posted by minye
    "For $600 you could easily build a crazy ass subwoofer that you couldn't buy in a store for over $2000."

    That is really persuading.

    Kex,

    Can you give us some examples among commercial subs that have about-equal performance as the $534 12" and $688 15" Titanic?

    15" Titanic seems to be so good that I can stick with for a long time...

    Oops misread your question earlier - all I can say is the 12" Titanic was a much better sounding sub than my $800 Paradigm PW-2200, which was alot better than my $500 HSU-VTF-2. (we're talking 2 years ago as I recall). I think you could spend at least 1.5 - 2.0 times as much on a lot of subs and not do any better. If you could build your own cabinet and avoid buying "kits" you can do much better though and save even more money.
    That's as bluntly honest as I'll go since those were upgrades I made after listening to the subs I had in my own home.
    I haven't done a shoot out with the Titanics and any other commercial subs I can recall, just other DIY subs.
    I haven't heard a commercial sub under $1200 I would put beside the 15" Titanic (not to say they don't exist, I just can't hear every sub), though I'd put the ACI Titan XL above the 12" Titanic for sound quality. And it does look much, much better, which is important.

  25. #25
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Department of Heuristics and Research on Material Applications
    Posts
    9,025
    If my wife would let me, I'd build an Infinite Baffle sub system with at least two 15" woofers - the large, 16" holes in the wall required continue to be a deal-breaker...

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •