Poor customer service from Paradigm Electronics

[Brianphoto]

Yeah you are probably right, will have to chaulk it up to a learning experience. Hope others have learned something as well.

[GMichael]

Yes, the waiting (or delay) is what is hurting you now. I don't think you are trying to pull anything on them but I do see their point. From their side they figure that you damaged it within the 1 year time and are trying to get something for nothing. Unless you get a very understanding Sales Person or Manager I doubt you'll get anything out of them short of going the RGA method of rattling their cage with letters and CC's. Even then It may be a tough battle. I have been doing business with a lot of companies all over the world for over 20 years. One thing most of them agree on is that damage must be reported immediately to get any credit or replacements.

Good luck, as I know that this must be very disappointing to you.

[Brianphoto]

GMichael, thanks for your comments.

[Woochifer]

Woochifer

After reading it again it sounds like he bought a brand new sub after 2 months it rattled - sends it back -- they replace it with a new one (I assume a V2) but the one they sent has water damageand blemishes thatthe original one did not.

Granted to you and I and many the blemishes may not be a big deal. On the other hand I think it's a matter of principal -- yoy buy a pristine product and you pay hard earned money for it. The product fails which the company admits to as they send out another -- the one they send him as a replacement is a scuffed up water damaged mess "The new unit had obvious defects in the cabinet, chipped wood around the driver opening as well as 2 places where the laminate had separated from the wood. I sent the sub back to Paradigm and after more than 2 months their response was the sub had water damage and all they were willing to do was "fill" the areas and send it back to me."

Sure, it's a matter of principle, but I also look at matters of practicality. Are the issues at hand worth all the trouble and hassle in the name of principle? Personally, I don't think that cosmetic issues are, particularly those that aren't readily visible. The other issue is that the original poster waited so long to raise a stink about it, and his website said that these cosmetic flaws were there from the beginning. So long as the driver is properly sealed with no air leaks, the appearance of the juncture is inconsequential to me. If anything, I'm surprised that Paradigm went with a flushed driver mount on the Servo 15 because the tolerances have to be so much tighter than with the surface mounting that all of Paradigm's bookshelf and tower speakers use.

if their response was that it had water damage then I'm sorry this is just wrong -- whether it is a sionic masterpiece or not -- if i buy a Red Ferrari and I have an engine problem send it to the dealer and they sdecide to give me a replacement loaded with dents and a pink door I'd be pretty choked -- even if it goes from point a to point b as good as ever. Speakers are part of ones furniture after all.

Once again, your car analogy does not work because the cosmetic flaw in question is not in a normally visible area. A more appropriate car analogy would be finding paint chips and scratches on the engine block. You could choose to raise a stink about it just because it's there, or you could just go on enjoying your Ferrari, since no one will notice it anyway with the hood down.

Besides, laminate cabinets are not exactly fine furniture. Doesn't matter how well it approximates the look of wood, it is what it is -- a vinyl stickyback that covers the MDF layer. If you want something that looks good, go for the wood veneer option. If you prefer utilitarian function and saving a few bucks, go with the laminate.

If Paradigm admits that tthe replacement has water damage then in a couple of years it is conceivable that the sub cabinet will completely fall apart. So if I got that message even if the cabinet was in reasonable shape I'd be wanting a replacement.

Completely fall apart? Let's not get too far removed from reality here. It would take a lot of water damage to rot away the structure of a braced MDF cabinet. I've left cheap particleboard bookcases outdoors for an entire rainy season, and they did not fall apart. If the water damage were that debilitating, then it would stand to reason that the first sign that something's amiss would be air leaks around the driver. That would be a justifiable reason for cabinet replacement since it has a direct bearing on the performance of the subwoofer.

I don't see what his post count has to do with anything -- for all we know this could be his first system. My only complaint is they he has not been as descriptive of the events and messages back and forth...I like the details to be presented and i get the sense there is some information we're not getting -- namely Paradigm's side of the story.

It's not the post count, it's when people come onto a board for the sole purpose of venting and complaining, without contributing anything else. Seems that the original poster has gone onto other boards and posted the same message. It's fine, since it doesn't violate any board rules. But, on the other hand, people whose messages only consist of complaints are often viewed with skepticism. That's why I disagreed with your suggestion that the poster just keep bashing them on audio forums. If complaints and bashing represent the only contributions to those audio forums, then people will tune out in a hurry.

[Woochifer]

Woochifer, sorry your sub is so butt ugly. With all of the uneven seams and chep looking paint you may want to get a new one. I have a Servo 15 for sale if you like, just leave the grill on and it looks brand new, you'll love it.

My sub looks fine -- that's what grilles are for. It also sounds fine, which is why I'm not looking to buy a new one any time soon.

If you're serious about selling the Servo 15, you'll have no shortage of takers. Sealed acoustic suspension subs that extend down past 18 Hz and sell for $1,500USD are few and far between. In fact, the Servo 15 very well might have been the only sub in its price class with those kinds of performance credentials in a sealed box design. The new v.2 version extends below 15 Hz and has a higher peak SPL, but the price also got bumped up by $700USD. Because of that price jump and because the older Servo 15s already had more than enough bass for most rooms, you should have no problem getting a high resale.

Then the question becomes, what do you replace it with? Most of your options in that price range that can deliver the Servo 15's bass output are ported designs, and those have a noticeably different type of sound. Louder, more assertive, but not as clean and tight as a sealed box.

[RGA]

Woochifer

I did not realize the grill covers the blemish anyway -- persoannly if it works well I would not care. people are saying he waited a year to tell them -- not sure I read this in his post -- sounds to me he bough a sub a year in it broke down - sent it back they give him a replacement sub --- he gets the replacement with all the blemishes so he sends it back -- 2 months later it comes back to him and they say they won't do anything about it. I might gripe if I paid $1500.00US for a sub which first fails and then they give me the one engineers play while their working, as my replacement. I dunno perhaps I read the whiole thing incorrectly. i know at Future Shop here if you buy a printer say an HP and in year 3 (if you have their warranty) if it breaks 3 times or it takes more than 30 days to fix or they can't fix it, they repolace it with whatever the new replacement model is.

I can't see too many Paradigm Subs failing and strangely I can't see why they could not fix the older one to begin with -- replace the driver. I can understand them maybe not wanting to give him a new one so just give the money back and get him out of your hair.

[Florian]

Can you fix the optics by yourself with some fill-in sandpaper and then the same color?

-Flo

[corwin99]

Are the issues at hand worth all the trouble and hassle in the name of principle? Personally, I don't think that cosmetic issues are, particularly those that aren't readily visible.

To me they would be, but not in the name of principle... but in the name of resale value. I like to always have the option of reselling anything I buy, and if it's damaged, that's going to cost me on resale. The Audio Note AN/K Spe's I bought have slight damage to the cabinets.. I am still waiting on a response. The speakers were incredibly cheap made with leftover cabinets from the previous model year so the blems might have to be acceptible. I just want to know if Soundhounds was aware of the blems and if they were why wasn't I notified. At $1500CAD a pair (even tho they are normally $3000) I'd like them to not have blems.

In this case I probably won't "scream bloody murder" as someone so wonderfully put it, but I will definately let them know i am unhappy about it. I listen with my grills off, so damage under the grills bothers me.

[Florian]

I have the same issue. If i know something is not right, even tough i dont see it right away ir still bothers me.

-Flo

[JSE]

Hey RGA,

He got the replacment sub, saw the problem and then waited over a year to bring the problem to Paradigm's attention due to health concerns. Paradigm them repaired the sub and sent it back to him. He gave a time line in one of his posts.

Just FYI.

JSE

[Brianphoto]

Ok gentlemen (not sure if there were any lady posters) I think we got about as much milage out of this thread as possible. There were a lot of varying opinions here and be sure that I have read them all and really appreciate the input that everybody had here. As a new HT person I look forward to learning from all of the forums here and hopefully have something pertinent to contribute. I have already started another thread under projectors so check it out and let me know if you have any info to offer. Thanks again............

[RGA]

To me they would be, but not in the name of principle... but in the name of resale value. I like to always have the option of reselling anything I buy, and if it's damaged, that's going to cost me on resale. The Audio Note AN/K Spe's I bought have slight damage to the cabinets.. I am still waiting on a response. The speakers were incredibly cheap made with leftover cabinets from the previous model year so the blems might have to be acceptible. I just want to know if Soundhounds was aware of the blems and if they were why wasn't I notified. At $1500CAD a pair (even tho they are normally $3000) I'd like them to not have blems.

In this case I probably won't "scream bloody murder" as someone so wonderfully put it, but I will definately let them know i am unhappy about it. I listen with my grills off, so damage under the grills bothers me.

Huh? My understanding was that they were simply a prior model -- they should still be new just a prior model. The new models use better cabinets and from a new cabinet maker. I bought the AN K at the reduced price as well and I don;t believe I had any blemishes. My J's are not free of them though but they were half off and because they're black you have to really get close to see them. though I dropped the speaker and it put a whole in the wall -- so there is some scuffing on the bottom corner where it rubbed against the stand. but that's my bad. I never really looked close at them out of the box.

I don't believe they should have defects is my point though - and if so then they should tell you that up front..."these are $1500.00 because they are a year old and have some blemishes" So I doubt they are aware of it.

[corwin99]

I don't believe they should have defects is my point though - and if so then they should tell you that up front..."these are $1500.00 because they are a year old and have some blemishes" So I doubt they are aware of it.

Hmm.. i will definately call them on Saturday and try to straighten this out since i am getting nowhere via email. Thanks for your input on this.

[HAVIC]

The issue here is Customer loyalty and if Paradigm had given the Brianphoto what he wanted then he would consider them for his next set of speakers. He may not of even looked at another brand because of the customer service they gave him. However this is not the case and because of his post here I myself am very glad that I did not choose Paradigm for my speakers and went with another and I'm sure others have been turned away as well.

Granted there are many people in this world who take advantage of companies but companies also take advantage of their customers as well.

I am a big fan of a companies who have great customer service, because everyone has problems from Ferrari down to small company x. I don't care who you are S*** happens, but it is the companies that are willing to resolve these matters that stand out from the rest.

Quick example, I bought a $70 USD Logitech Wireless Xbox remote control that went bad on me, I called them up and the said ok I will send you a wired controller until our new model comes out. When it comes out we will send you the new wireless and keep the wired for the inconvience.

I did not have to say a word because they wanted to keep me as a customer. For all they knew I dropped the remote down a flight of stairs and that is why it doesn't work (that is not what happened though), and I always have and will remain a Logitech customer.

Now with a much smaller company like Paradigm they need all the customers they can get in the limited hi-fi speaker arena becuase most people are buying the cheapo speakers at Circuit city, best buy etc...

On the other hand I bought a VW jetta in 2000 and have had over $15,000 worth of repairs and had to fight volkswagen through the whole experience. I even had to video tape several problems till they "believed" me. They treated me like someone who did not know what I was talking about and I will never buy a VW/AUDI again.

So it's not the problems you encounter it is how it is handled.

Greg

[RGA]

it's funny you mention volkswagon because everyone our family knows or has known over the years reports the IDENTICAL thing. Their attitude to my friends parents when their engine head cracked after 4 months was that "well our cars are the best and therefore it must have been your fault" and they are roayal pains in the ass. Considering how often they break down I always laugh when I hear their tag line "German engineering" Yeah like thanks for the warning. Looking through the Lemon-Aid it would seem most new Mercedes and B&W are poorly engineered and poorly built -- Hmm can you say Lexus?

Customer service is dissapearing in most industries because big companies really don;t care about you the little guy - I say most because some like you Logitech know that in the computer field you'll be a repeat customer so if you're happy today then the next 30 items for the computer you buy you will at least seriously consider or BUY a logitech.

Speaker companies in the mid-fi realm chances are are not going to sell you another speaker -- 1 because the buyer may keep the speakers 20 years and 2 if they go upscale they probably leave your brand anyway - so why really go the extra mile on service?

I remember talking to the owner of a GM car dealer who said thatthe best cars they sold in terms of not falling apart was the Chevy SPRINT and by a very wide margin. (confirmed by lemon-aid as well). He said that the average person buys about 10 cars in his her lifetime -- chances are the first car they buy will be a cheap car like a Sprint -- so they want to HOOK you on the brand with a relaile economical car that goes pretty good around the city. GM basically bought them all From Suzuki (who made the Swift).

Anyway, he said the WORST cars by a mile in the line-up was the Cadilac. they figure this is your LAST car and typically sell to retirees. It's loaded with surface niceties but is easily the worst put together highest profit margin car in their line-ups...they got your money and they know they are not getting any more. He told me that customer satisfaction across British Columbia for that vehicle was under 20% (this was 4 years ago so things may have changed). Yet the sprint was over 80% - still pathetic compared to Honda's 98% across the board.

A fellow not long ago here had tons of trouble with PSB and after badgering and internet postings they resolved it -- but really should it take all that? I worked at McDonalds and we'd have people come in saying that we forgot to put their fries in the bag. Some managers would get into an argument with the custmer asking for a receipt (which in a rush we probably forgot to give them). The customer would say he didn't get a receipt - so ten minutes of arguing goes by and the manager grudgingly give the guy his fries... or does not and the guy never goes back to McDonalds.

Me, I say sorry sir what size of fries did you order "a Small?" please take a large Fries and tasty a apple pie for your trouble. Sure maybe Mcdonalds got hosed out of this .25 cent cost to us for both items but on the other hand maybe we truly were in the wrong and we made this guy happy enough to not complain to anyone about his bad exoperience or better yet more than happy to say gee that McDonalds was pretty damn good to me.

I went to Tim Hortons - a donut restaurant that is HUGE in Canada. I asked for a Chile in a Bread bowl -- I ordered a combo $6.00 after tax. Anyway, they had no bread bowls for the Chile ready -- they said it would be about 7 minutes. I kinda frowned but said tht;s fine.. The manager comes over gives me all my money back hands me the cash and said the meal's on us. I am now writing this on this forum and maybe people want to go to Tim Hortons instead of KFC next time.

The cost of the stupid subwoofer to Paradigm or the speakers to PSB are a pittance -- deal with the service -- because a good experience people might talk about 1 in 10 -- but a bad experience will be talked about every time!!

[HAVIC]

Speaker companies in the mid-fi realm chances are are not going to sell you another speaker -- 1 because the buyer may keep the speakers 20 years and 2 if they go upscale they probably leave your brand anyway - so why really go the extra mile on service?

RGA will this may be true word of mouth referrals and the internet can have a great impact on your business. The amount of information and misinformation on the web can cost a company millions.

remember the febreeze disaster, it was either an email or websites that said using febreeze will kill your pets. Febreeze spent millions of dollars on an ad campaign to show you that it is safe for your pets.

The internet is a very powerful medium and ALL companies need to realize this.

A fellow not long ago here had tons of trouble with PSB and after badgering and internet postings they resolved it -- but really should it take all that?

Wow not want I want to hear because PSB is the brand I went with, but because I was able to get brand new unblemished speakers a wholesale which was 40% below MSRP so I know that the cost for replacing Brianphoto's sub would not have cost Paradigm a thing. I;m sure even at the discount I got for the PSB's, they still made money.

maybe a customer service thread/forum could be started that tracks the way companies handle customer service to help people make decisions on the products that they are looking at. Just a thought

Greg

[RGA]

Well I would not personally be put off by either paradigm or the PSB incident because even poor customer service can happen to comapnies noted as being good in this area -- maybe they have a temp employee in when the regular is on vacation and something gets screwed up -- bottom line is eventually PSB gave the guy a model up the line -- his cabinets came apart or something and like Paradigm had no replacement. basically divide a speaker by 10 that's about what it costs the manufacturer to build -- smaller makers are often lower in this regard not higher like some believe. My B&W 302 at $300.00 Cad I'd be surprised if it cost B&W more than $30.00 in parts - ditto for that speaker's competitors...and IMO it's worse in the higher models. You consider that the 302 costs roughly the same to ship to Canada that their N805 costs. The costs of physical materials and drivers even at a multiple of 10 which is unlikely would cost them $300.00 and the sepaker goes for $3k. I'm not surprised so many are turning to DIY. At least then with DIY you can buy real woods. Not that I think there is necessarily anything wrong with the speakers pricing BTW -- they are supplying the labour and "know-how" and the designing...If I had to buy all the equipment to build the DM 302 it would probably cost me more money buying the equipment -- and then without the design I may end up bulding a weaker sounding speaker -- but if these companies are not making at LEAST 50% mark-up over costs then why not sell clothes. My dealer has to have 25% to keep his doors open to cover overhead and employees and still make a buck. Bose is attractive to many because they're in the 70% range.

[dave123456@mail.com]

Woochifer


if i buy a Red Ferrari and I have an engine problem send it to the dealer and they sdecide to give me a replacement loaded with dents and a pink door I'd be pretty choked

lol thats hilarious. I can imagine a pink door slipping past QC at the last minute ( probably due to a disgruntled temp worker) and then sent to you like everything is fine .

I also read what you wrote about Hondas. My first car was a 99 Black Civic dx coupe and I loved it. Great car. It was stolen so now I drive an 02 civic.

[Woochifer]

RGA, PLEASE stop bringing up the car analogies. They just don't work, and the information you present is laughably out of date.

Chevy Sprint?! Are you kidding me? That thing went out of production in 1988, and you think it has ANY relevance to GM's current business model? Why don't you at least bring in some information that was at least current back in the 1990s?

GM's "lifecycle" marketing model where a consumer would come in as a youngster and buy a Chevy, move up to a Buick/Oldsmobile/Pontiac as the family grows, and eventually wind up in a Caddy for the golden years, was jettisoned a LONG time ago. Pretty much any business nowadays knows that they have to be adaptable and serve the needs of today's consumers, and not worry about what consumers will buy from them 20 years from now. Why do you think Cadillac is aggressively marketing to upper income 40somethings (basically the consumers who buy BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes)? The whole idea that there's some ruse to create reliable entry level products so that a company can rip the consumers off 40+ years from now when they retire is completely out of touch with today's business climate, which moves much more rapidly.

And while we're at it, let's look at the information that you're bringing up. The current JD Power survey debunks almost everything. Guess what, BMW and Mercedes have moved back into the top 10 on the latest IQS survey. The data that you're citing reflects the slide that began with those nameplates in the late-90s. The JD Power survey first flagged the quality problems with BMW and Mercedes more than five years ago, and that was eventually confirmed in the Consumer Reports reliability reports in subsequent years. These latest rankings indicate that they've reversed that trend with the current model year.

Buick and Cadillac are those GM nameplates that are supposed to have piss poor quality, y'know to rip off those retired bluehairs, right? Hmmm, GM must have done something wrong, because Buick and Cadillac are in the top 5, and have been there the last few years.

And Honda and Acura? They've slipped the last couple of years and are now right about at the industry average.

But, if you look at the overall average, you'll see that the automotive quality in general has improved dramatically since 1998. Suzuki (makers of your ultra high quality Sprint) ranked dead last in the 2005 IQS survey, yet their quality rating exceeded the industrywide average for every year prior to 2001. This should give you an idea that the entire industry has raised the bar.

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases...asp?ID=2005069

[Brianphoto]

You guys are right about the whole customer service thing. Big companies may win on single customer issue but in the long run they lose. When I sent the sub back to Paradigm I had no idea that my version 1 was not available anymore and had been replaced with a version 2. I was quite happy with my version1 and do not need a version 2 model, but I offered to pay Paradigm the difference which would be about another 5-6 hundred dollars out of my own pocket. I am sure this would have covered the full manufacturing cost of a sub, it would not have cost them a thing really.

[RGA]

Dave

I've had three cars in my life -- a 1990 Ford Escort -- which was ok for an American Car -- only had a few problems:

Driver seat broke so I had to sit a little sideways 73,000km
Wheel bearings needed replacement 70,000km
Automatic transmission need replacing $79,000km
Widow roller broke off --- replaced but windows would never roll all the way down again
Engine failure at 101,000km

Yet what made me sell it was when I was racing my friends Hyandai Pony up a hill -- lets say it was not much of a race as he killed me. My car never liked hills.

Then I went to a GM Pontiac Grand Am 1994: I had it 16 months Ior thereabouts and had in the shop about 8 times with two brake replacements, an alternator, power door locks, power windows, paint peeling, passenger seat failing to lock onto place so pasenger would fly forward in heavy braking, cruise control failed, but hey the radio always worked. And don;t get me started on rattles -- the Lemon-aid had three pages JUST on fixing the rattles Ohh and if you tromped iot off the line the car veered left -- you know into on-coming traffic - and the ABS sucked. this was a car recommended by the Consumer Reports back int he day as well -- So much for reviews. I bought the car with 20,000km on it and sold it by 45,000km -- the straw that brioke it was hitting the back of another car at 4km and the front end practically fell off.

The I got fed up and bought a Honda Civic hatchback in 1996 -- I had it new for 3 years. Automatic. Emergency brake handle got looseso it rode up the shaft making it difficult to push the button. 5 minutes and some glue. Then i flooded the engine somehow so it would not start...I had to keep my foot fully depressed on the gas pedal while starting it...which was odd (they had to do it at the dealer though so it was a pain. But other than this 89,000km I sold it and it still had 30% on the pads and no problems no rattles no cheap plasticay crap -- even the dashboard had a soft rubber feel instead of the cheap hard palstic which always rattled in the Grand Am when you had the air-conditioner on.

Oh and the 4 cylinder Civic went up the Coquahala(A major freeway to kelown BC with killer hills) better than the V6 supposeldy more powerful GM.

I do have to say though that GM custmer service was always impeccable -- they're certainly experts -- probably because they never need to drum up business. My friend had a Beretta -- the computer chip went and cost her $1800.00...the dealer's repairman said that they all go and deliberately so --- that;s how they make their money -- same for the altenrators which were designed to run extra hot so that they would fail -- he suggested that one should neer run more than two items at a time -- so never run the air conditioner power windows and the radio all at once.

[Pat D]

RGA will this may be true word of mouth referrals and the internet can have a great impact on your business. The amount of information and misinformation on the web can cost a company millions.

remember the febreeze disaster, it was either an email or websites that said using febreeze will kill your pets. Febreeze spent millions of dollars on an ad campaign to show you that it is safe for your pets.

The internet is a very powerful medium and ALL companies need to realize this.



Wow not want I want to hear because PSB is the brand I went with, but because I was able to get brand new unblemished speakers a wholesale which was 40% below MSRP so I know that the cost for replacing Brianphoto's sub would not have cost Paradigm a thing. I;m sure even at the discount I got for the PSB's, they still made money.

maybe a customer service thread/forum could be started that tracks the way companies handle customer service to help people make decisions on the products that they are looking at. Just a thought

Greg

Now, now! Here we have a fellow who said he just got a subwoofer and it turns out he got it a couple of years ago and there was quite a hiatus before he notified Paradigm of the problem with the replacement. No wonder Paradigm seems rather sceptical. I wondered about his story from the beginning as it was the first version of the Paradigm Servo-15 and I couldn't figure out how he had "just" acquired it. I am still wondering if there is more he left out--in any case, he has a fully operational Servo-15, v. 1 with a minor cosmetic defect which is under the grille, for God's sake. I don't see a horror story here and so far my sympathies lie with Paradigm. From everything I've heard, Paradigm's service is very good.

As I recall, the PSB speaker had some of the veener come unglued. It was eventually replaced with a Stratus model, a line above what the customer had had. Just what the breakdown in communication was I was not sure at the time and it was pretty bad, but when Paul Barton heard about it, he sent him some Stratus Silvers.

I went ahead and got PSB Stratus Minis irrespective of the story because it really was the only story of dissatisfaction with PSB's service I had ever heard--and PSB resolved it well. After all, I had been listening to some very fine speakers by B & W, Dali, Sonus Faber, and others up to four times the price and the Stratus Minis seemed as good as they were and also had an overall balance giving a somewhat more distant perspective which I prefer for most recordings.

[JSE]

My friend had a Beretta -- the computer chip went and cost her $1800.00...the dealer's repairman said that they all go and deliberately so --- that;s how they make their money -- same for the altenrators which were designed to run extra hot so that they would fail -- he suggested that one should neer run more than two items at a time -- so never run the air conditioner power windows and the radio all at once.

RGA, that's why I always get a kick out of your post, right or wrong. You almost always start your posts with good solid experiences and believable information and then.....

BAM!

You hit us with the conspiracy theory, delusional, far out, undocumented, magic dust testimonials. I've had 4 GM vehicles over the years and had only 1 alternator go out at about 130k miles. I also had a Corvette with a chip problem, mainly because I tampered with it. I was young and thought I needed to go faster. I think the chip was about $300 installed.

Anyway, Keep'um coming!

JSE

[corwin99]

RGA, I also have to disagree with some of your car analogy there... take for example Mercedes, who have slipped in recent years, I agree, but they have one of the best (if not the best, but it is slipping) brand loyalty in the industry. Actually, their S-Class if I recall correctly, has better Brand Loyalty than any other line. I know many many mercedes owners that just buy one Benz after another, one of these people are my dear folks, who have owned 4 consecutive Benzes, and have felt that their most recent acquisition is not as nice as it should have been... At any rate, Cars aren't necessarily always upgraded, there are lateral upgrades as well. A person may move from a S-Class Sedan to an M-Class SUV because they find the G-Class ugly, but still want a Mercedes.

The AN/K Spe I recently picked up wouldn't really be considered an upgrade from the Gershman X-1/SW-1... but of course my purchase isn't the norm, since I do have more speakers than most people.

That Tim Horton's experience is quite cool actually. That leads me to another thing.. like you said about the bad day/timing situation, that could have just as easily gone the other way had you been at a difference Timmy's Franchise. My girlfriend used to work at a Timmy's that would NEVER do that. The Owner was far too cheap. Just like you could just have dealt with a Customer Service rep that was in a bad mood... or even perhaps with companies like Lenbrook who are distributors for many companies. They don't reflect the actual companies commitment, just perhaps poor management of personnel or something.

[dave123456@mail.com]

The 99 Civic was my brothers, he bought it when it had 40,000 miles on it, and It was mine at about 90,000 miles. Not a damn thing wrong with it. The only thing I can remember them doing to it was changing the battery. I know 90k isnt awhole lot, but some companies can barelly do that. My moms S- 10 from the 80's, which was taken care of my mom drives like a farmer, crapped out at 100k at was struggling for many miles before that. My friends dads explorers transmission ( 00 Explorer) stopped working at around 90k as well. Mustangs, samething with these theyre junk. We now own 00 Monte Carlo at 60k miles that felt worse ( steering problems) than the civic at 90k. Im glad I never got the late 90's S-10 I had originally planned on buying. Im sure there are many American cars that go beyond 200k, but thats pretty rare.