I heard the B&W 800d's today

[Mr Peabody]

Topper, what you are describing I refer to as system Synergy. That is a real consideration and sometimes obstacle if it's not there. When I bought my first Krell integrated I already had an Arcam Alpha 9 cdp, it was apparent that the player had better synergy with my old amp so I eventually traded it up to a Krell cdp which made the system fall into place. I've played with other cd players and I think a lot of the synergy with Krell is due to the balanced circuits and inputs. Even without the synergy I could tell the Krell amp killed the one I was using.

BUT, no amount of synergy or lack there of will make a $2 or 300.00 Fisher cd player out perform a Krell of any price. That's a ridiculus statement for anyone to make, especially one claiming to have audio experience.

[dean_martin]

Dean Martin

Beware

John Ashman is an NHT Salesman. So expect the sales pitch for the XD system.

Don't worry, RGA. I have 2 pairs of SuperOnes. Although I like'em, I'm going to try something else when I move up from their price bracket. I also know that his recommendations are his opinions based on his experiences, but it doesn't hurt anything to hear various opinions. It's difficult for me to audition a lot of speakers because of where I live. However, I travel enough to where I can do a little research ahead of time and find a place to audition speakers and other components. Due to time constraints on my trips I usually plan to listen to 2 or 3 speakers. I've heard Maggies in Denver, B&Ws, MAs and Revels in Mobile, Martin Logans and Nola Alons in Birmingham, Paradigms in Pensacola and Meadowlarks and Vandersteens in Atlanta. I was planning a trip to the Gulfport/Biloxi area to listen to some Von Schweikerts before Katrina hit.

[John Ashman]

Dean Martin

Beware

John Ashman is an NHT Salesman. So expect the sales pitch for the XD system.

Yes, but at least I recommend other brands beside Audio Note and those 20 year old speaker designs

[theaudiohobby]

That one pretty much speaks for itself. I can't add much there.

John,

Why not quote the full text of the paragraph in question, afterall the answer to the smoking gun is second part that you glaringly omitted.

[John Ashman]

Feel free to post away. All they say is that an FST cone can produce wider dispersion than a standard 6" cone, which isn't saying much. The problem with this is that it causes more ON AXIS distortion of the sound in order to increase the quality of OFF AXIS sound. If you really want to take the discussion in this direction, that's fine with me, but it's not good for B&W. There are several *better* solutions to the dispersion problem, but none of those are an excuse to use kevlar.

[theaudiohobby]

Its all about trade offs, your comments previously where about cone-breakup...

The break-up pattern of woven Kevlar® has proved beneficial for use in midrange and
bass/midrange units, being superior to many other materials, not only because of
the inherent properties of Kevlar, but also because the woven cone is not axi-symmetric.

Any comments why B&W and many others use "woven" kevlar?

PS: I am not sure of the specific white paper you are quoting from, which of the white papers will it be?

[Florian]

Yes, but at least I recommend other brands beside Audio Note and those 20 year old speaker designs

Interesting i didnt even know that. I am a dealer for VMPS, Ampzilla and RTFS but i dont advertise for it on the forums. You should mention that you are a dealer, this makes your opinion a tad different.

-Flo

[John Ashman]

Its all about trade offs, your comments previously where about cone-breakup...

Yes, but, remember, the upper management has boxed the engineers into a) using a 3-way, b) using only one midrange and c) using kevlar, at least for now. If your boss pays you to make a bridge out of paper, you get creative, but that doesn't make it as good as using steel and concrete. Remember also, when *freed* from constraints, the solution was the genune Nautilus speaker which used metal drivers in a 4-way design with a wide dispersion dome midrange. The advantages? Wider dispersion, lower distortion, less "shouty" sound (the upper midrange of a kevlar cone behave as if in a horn, because it is), higher output. All of the advantages B&W claims to desire, but can't produce because they are "boxed in" by management. One might say "but a 4-way design like the Nautilus is too expensive", but NHT is shipping an $1800/pr 4-way speaker with all metal drivers and far more in common with Nautilus than any current B&W product. It is possible to do. There is no excuse except for the fact that Kevlar is popular and they want to roll with that until it isn't popular. Which is why I predict that the next gen midrange in the 800 series will be some form of proprietary ceramic or other composite that "solves" their problems. Watch for it. And then it will trickle down from there.

Any comments why B&W and many others use "woven" kevlar?

Yes, it breaks up some of the modes (not all) on the cone. It is critical to do that or the sound would be truly and obviously awful. It simply creates discontinuities in the resonances of the cones which helps break them up a bit and dampen them down.

I worked at a B&W dealer when the 600 series was replacing the 500 series and Kevlar was trickling down to the 600s for the first time. It wasn't pretty. The 630's poly midrange was *far* superior* to the 640's kevlar midrange. It was when I learned to dislike the sound because I could actually hear two different solutions from the same company and the poly solution was obviously superior. I like a lot of B&W's old speakers, especially the Matrix 3, so it has nothing to do with the company itself.

PS: I am not sure of the specific white paper you are quoting from, which of the white papers will it be?

The 800D development paper. They are actually quite honest in the obstacles they face and how the (somewhat) overcome them. The problem is that there are *better* solutions to the ones they used, but they are prevented from using them. They don't say "management made us do this", but it is implied that they have boundaries - high output, wide dispersion, but with only one midrange whereas most companies would either do dual 5" drivers (as in the Matrix 800) or a mid/midbass combo as in the actual Nautilus, most NHTs, Energy Veritas, etc.

[John Ashman]

Interesting i didnt even know that. I am a dealer for VMPS, Ampzilla and RTFS but i dont advertise for it on the forums. You should mention that you are a dealer, this makes your opinion a tad different.

Yes, but also a tad more informed

I thought you knew that from Audio Circle. Oh well, I hate parading the fact that I'm a dealer because I'm an enthusiast. What sucks is no one ever allows you to "punch out".

[Florian]

20 year old design or not has nothing to do with it. The Apogee ribbon design is older than that and copied by manys and still hold their place as the finest speakers on earth. Good speakers are timeless!

[Florian]

Yes, but at least I recommend other brands beside Audio Note and those 20 year old speaker designs

20 year old design or not has nothing to do with it. The Apogee ribbon design is older than that and copied by manys and still hold their place as the finest speakers on earth. Good speakers are timeless!

[Florian]

Tell me about it, i was a moderator but the problem is that you can't speak your mind freely and have to be neutral

-Flo

PS: Doesn't matter if you have knowledge or not, i learned that people will make their own truth. Trust me on this, its a waste of time to repeat yourself or post facts. People consider true what they want.

[John Ashman]

20 year old design or not has nothing to do with it. The Apogee ribbon design is older than that and copied by manys and still hold their place as the finest speakers on earth. Good speakers are timeless!

And Quads! Nah, I'm just giving RGA crap. He's drunken the Snell/Audio Note kool-aid. Kinda like folks that picked a year to stop listening to new music

[Florian]

Well i sealed my year ongoing fight with RGA, so please dont start again. It was horrible!
RGA and I are audioreview semi-advert stones He loved AN and i love Apogee, and everyone knows we are biased

[John Ashman]

Well i sealed my year ongoing fight with RGA, so please dont start again. It was horrible!
RGA and I are audioreview semi-advert stones He loved AN and i love Apogee, and everyone knows we are biased

Don't worry, I have no intention of doing anything but avoiding RGA. And I was going to further nitpick some of your "ribbon theories" and "cone theories" but then I realized that I might as well try to convince Michael Moore to be a Republican

[Florian]

Exactly, noone will ever sway me to a cone speaker. I can hear a cone and box with my eyes closed. Place me in a showroom blindfolded and i will tell you what has a box and what not, and if it has one it already failed

[Florian]

Too bad you're in Germany, your preconceptions are safe. For the moment

Not a chance, i heard all the high end box setups. I heard the DALI Megaline completely actively driven with room correction. What your NHT setup is, i heard it and will never buy it over a ribbon system. But you can have a chance if you show me a dealer in germany, but i can already tell you whats gonna happen

[GMichael]

Exactly, noone will ever sway me to a cone speaker. I can hear a cone and box with my eyes closed. Place me in a showroom blindfolded and i will tell you what has a box and what not, and if it has one it already failed

Oh come on Flo. You know that you love those Bose cubes. Admit it.

[Florian]

Oh come on Flo. You know that you love those Bose cubes. Admit it.

Alright you got me. Those cubes are really somthing!

[John Ashman]

Not a chance, i heard all the high end box setups.

Not all of them

I heard the DALI Megaline completely actively driven with room correction. What your NHT setup is, i [haven't] heard it and will never buy it over a ribbon system. But you can have a chance if you show me a dealer in germany, but i can already tell you whats gonna happen

Hah, with that prejudice? What's the point?


As you said, people make up their own truth.

[GMichael]

Alright you got me. Those cubes are really somthing!

Ok, I'll pack up some cubes and send them to you with my next shipment to Germany. I'll have my contact there pick up your old maggies as an exchange. This way you'll have no frieght to pay. I think I still have those 9 hundred and one cubes I bought from the guy in the white van.

We'll do a straight trade. I'll even throw in some magical pixie snot, no charge.

[Florian]

Not all of them

Hah, with that prejudice? What's the point?


As you said, people make up their own truth.

Exactly, its not a dipole, doesnt have a ribbon, it has a box and small cute drivers. Already failed for me, so there is no need to try to make me want them. This is not a question about money, but about taste and why should i listen to a system that i already dont like

[Florian]

Ok, I'll pack up some cubes and send them to you with my next shipment to Germany. I'll have my contact there pick up your old maggies as an exchange. This way you'll have no frieght to pay. I think I still have those 9 hundred and one cubes I bought from the guy in the white van.

We'll do a straight trade. I'll even throw in some magical pixie snot, no charge.

Wow your a class A guy all the way! I cant wait to get that magix pixie and rub it on the contacts of the cubes. It will beat the NHT's and the DIVA's. BOSE rules. Better sound through advertising !!!

[GMichael]

Wow your a class A guy all the way! I cant wait to get that magix pixie and rub it on the contacts of the cubes. It will beat the NHT's and the DIVA's. BOSE rules. Better sound through advertising !!!

HAHAHAHA, Just don't forget to send those old Maggies. I bet you don't even have them anymore. Besides, what would I drive them with, my receiver? Does anyone smell smoke?

[Florian]

HAHAHAHA, Just don't forget to send those old Maggies. I bet you don't even have them anymore. Besides, what would I drive them with, my receiver? Does anyone smell smoke?

I still have the first good speakers i ever heard. My 0.5 Maggies! My friends Scintilla and MG20 are out for repair so he is using them currently after giving back a highly aclaimed box speaker from his dealer. They still sound wonderfull!

-Flo