I heard the B&W 800d's today

[Mr Peabody]

John, all I can say is that you must be a good salesman because no matter how you back end your system it won't reproduce what isn't there in the first place. Your system would be totally limited by the Fisher cd player and no matter how you might try to convince me or some one there's no way that Fisher will give the information or performance of a Krell, Arcam or similar quality cd player. I was in a repair shop several years ago and the tech used a cheap pair of Kenwood speakers on the bench, he through an old McIntosh tube amp on them and I was amazed at how good those old speakers sounded. I can't remember the source. That was one of the first examples that stuck in my mind even though the amp wasn't the source it still made more of a difference than putting a high end pair of speakers on his test receiver. I guess we will agree to disagree because I am absolutely convinced that front end loading will yield higher quality sound overall.

As far as new series that come out, I tend to, wait and see, if it's actually offering anything better than the older series. Typically on higher end gear the change is warranted where mass merchants have to keep the faces changing to excite new business from foolish consumers like the one you described.

[John Ashman]

John, all I can say is that you must be a good salesman because no matter how you back end your system it won't reproduce what isn't there in the first place. Your system would be totally limited by the Fisher cd player and no matter how you might try to convince me or some one there's no way that Fisher will give the information or performance of a Krell, Arcam or similar quality cd player.

Well, let's put it this way, the difference was so amazing that even my competitor's employee finally just threw his hands up and left. In this case, yes, there was $20K worth of Krell CD/Pre/Amp and exotic cable vs old, beat up, crappy electronics, that I would argue suck, driving a better speaker and the better speaker won. Pick your "dream" system at any price point and I'll gladly come over and spank it with a backloaded system. Which has nothing to do with my capabilities or anything, just the reality that speakers/room/setup is more than 90% of the battle. Yes, in this case, a CRAP Fisher CD player beat out a Krell CD player that cost 20 times as much.

I guess we will agree to disagree because I am absolutely convinced that front end loading will yield higher quality sound overall.

Yes, but I can actually prove I'm right

[Peter Duminy]

Cincy2, may I ask how you like the Transparent Reference XL speaker cables and Interconnects with the 800Ds? Have you tried any other combinations of cables with them?

[RGA]

Peter D

Soundhounds in Victoria carries the B&W Diamonds among other notables. There was a fellow I met ther who owned B&W speakers (I forget which one but probably in the CDM NT range) He re-wired all of the internal cabling with AN wires and was raving about how great it was.

When you worked for B&W did they ever experiment with different cables. I'm more than a little suspicious of cables because the only serious audition I had was with some MIT cables and they actually made the sound "worse" than the cheap speaker wires. I never argue with cable supporters because I can honestly say I heard a difference (albeit for the much worse) but I don't get why this B&W owner would wake up one day and think gee lets spend money and time having the repair guy open up the B&W's and the re-wire them with presumably silver wires from a totally different company?? He's happy so that's all that matters I guess but to me that sort of change COOULD just as easily made it worse no?

[Florian]

In my opinion some cables can improve the sound while others can/will make it worse. It's all about component synergy. In my system balanced cables from Rapport brought me the best so far, and the use of a pure silverstrand unshielded wire from the Transport to the DAC got me a tick more resolution. The differences are small, and i do not belive that someone can claim a 50% increase from cables no matter how you twist it.

Personally i do not care for B&W and think that they are far from the end in terms of detail, speed, lack of coloration and transiant responses. (See John i am learning ). I think its great that he likes his system but its a system i would never choose to own. The Diamond tweeter is much like the Kevlar drivers and the big comercials. Kevlar, space age materials and Diamond are all words that have a high status with us and it effects the judgment before hearing it on some people. Some of the best drivers i heard was from the "Wiener Lautsprecher Manufaktur" and they use coax paper drivers! But this would never sell because paper is less worth than a Diamond.

A fisher CDP with a old carver amp and some rotten socks will never touch a 20K system unless its from B&O or BOSE. A good thought out system for 20K will blow away a system costing less if the same amount of care and consideration went into the component selection. Of course, if you choose a Wilson Audio X2 and try to run them with a Onkyo TX5000 the system will be around 60K and sound like ****, but that's because no consideration and care went into it. Same goes with Apogee's and the Audio Notes. The Apogee's love current and like the sound of a good transistor on the bass with tubes on the mid high section and Audio Notes love single tube systems which can sound damn good and capture the spirit of the music very well. An Apogee will never play with that kind of component so different means are neceserry in order to reach the final goal.

A revelaing system will clearly guide you and help you on the selection of equipment. My DIVA can clearly show me the differences between cables, power filters, source electronics and amplification and room placment. Its not always better, it does not always improve but it shows me what she likes and does not like. But the DIVA never sounds harsh or unpleasant, thats not her style. The system is very well balanced and has a very good transiant response and lacks coloration. The technology has not been changed in over 30years, but B&W needs to come out with new toys in order to sell.

If you own a speaker whos only shortcomings are the driving electronics and the room plus the price than you can stop and say you have a ruthlessly revealing speaker. Otherwise just ruthless

-Flo

[John Ashman]

I'm more than a little suspicious of cables because the only serious audition I had was with some MIT cables and they actually made the sound "worse" than the cheap speaker wires.

RGA, MIT cables actually are a passive electronic circuit. However, I've found that, for B&W owners who feel their speakers are too bright, they make a very postive difference and many have adopted them. I'm not a fan of "two wrongs make a right", but sometimes you just use what works to get to where you need to be. I think Transparent cables work the very same way as the MITs and could be why Cincy finds his system to be so smooth.

[Peter Duminy]

RGA

Yes, we did extensive testing and research into cables and their properties. Many Companies around the World sent samples for us to evaluate and test. Each had their strengths and weaker points, and many were extremely expensive. We never had a real favorite we could name the "last word" in cables however.

As to opening up a product and re-wiring it, the main deterrent would be the 5 year Factory Warranty that would be voided. After that period, one can try this, and a number of enthusiasts have done so and posted their results on the Hi-Fi Choice Forum for example over the years. It can be a tedious task as some of the routes can be very narrow and awkward on some models. There is also the risk of rattling against the enclosure walls and drivers developing, so one has to be very careful in laying the cables out. As to whether such a short internal run of silver wire within the loudspeaker would be a sonic benefit is a debatable issue. Still, the main point here is that the user you mention in your post is happy with his modification.

[Cincy2]

Peter,

I've never owned any speaker cables other than Transparent. I started with B Stock dealer demo Ultras and over the years upgraded to Reference and XL (soon to Opus MM wife permitting). I found each upgrade increased transparency and reduced background noise (please no flames here fellas). I never had the urge to look elsewhere since 1) the Transparent folks are wonderful to work with, 2) their products have worked great in all my systems over the past 15 years. There are several price points of Nordost cables you could try to compare. They don't have a network as the Transparent cables do. The biggest knock against Transparent's product line is that the network rolls off the treble. I have not found this to be the case, but only you can be the judge. The Cable Company (www.fatwyre.com)carries Nordost and will loan you a set of which ever ones you want for a deposit which has to be applied to some purchase. They are also great folks to work with.


Topspeed,

The picture of the room treatments is somewhat old. I kept the rear wall diffusers and Tube traps. They control the base. On the side walls I have small Studio Traps from ASC at the first reflection points. They diffuse rather than absorb allowing me to keep some "snap" and "sizzle" in the room.

Cincy2