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  1. #26
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

    -Flo
    Last edited by Florian; 05-18-2005 at 03:57 AM.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  2. #27
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    We're the fanboys?

    This from the self proclaimed Lord Magnepan.

    No bias there, eh

  3. #28
    RGA
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    Topspeed. Remember though that just because a company says it's better does not make it so...the word diamond has a connotation that comes with it and IF B&W is more about marketing than sound then it may very well be another gimmick and not an improvement. Abbey road is using loudspeakers from B&W that have no kevlar drivers. Skywalker Sound just released the new Star Wars DVD set which has been roundly hailed as a sonic disaster.

  4. #29
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Topspeed. Remember though that just because a company says it's better does not make it so...the word diamond has a connotation that comes with it and IF B&W is more about marketing than sound then it may very well be another gimmick and not an improvement. Abbey road is using loudspeakers from B&W that have no kevlar drivers. Skywalker Sound just released the new Star Wars DVD set which has been roundly hailed as a sonic disaster.
    Sonic disaster? No, the complaints that have been lodged at the Star Wars set have centered on the flipping of the music in the surround channels. That was a mistake by the recording engineer (easy enough to do when compiling everything digitally with Pro Tools), and nothing to do with the types of monitors used in the control room. Otherwise, the sonics on the Star Wars DVDs have been universally praised, particularly the remixes on Empire and Jedi. Plenty of other movies have been mixed at Skywalker Sound (which is frequently regarded as one of the most advanced mixing facilities in the world), and they sound just fine.
    Last edited by Woochifer; 05-17-2005 at 02:51 PM.

  5. #30
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    We're the fanboys?

    This from the self proclaimed Lord Magnepan.

    No bias there, eh
    topspeed -

    Yer makin' WAY too much sense here, what's gotten into you?

    This has been an amusing thread given that it started innocently enough when Peter Duminy simply posted a review of the 800D, and every other fanboy response has come from people who have not even heard the speaker in question. Just a lot of baseless presumption and self-righteous soapbox fodder. Amazing what happens when people get so wedded to their proclamations that they can no longer fathom that their world view isn't universally shared.

  6. #31
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    Remember though that just because a company says it's better does not make it so.
    True enough. I might also suggest that just because Peter Q says it's better does not make it so as well.

    I'll let my own ears be the judge, thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by woochifer
    Amazing what happens when people get so wedded to their proclamations that they can no longer fathom that their world view isn't universally shared.
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

  7. #32
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

    -Flo
    Last edited by Florian; 05-18-2005 at 03:59 AM.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  8. #33
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

    -Flo
    Last edited by Florian; 05-18-2005 at 04:03 AM.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  9. #34
    Forum Regular thepogue's Avatar
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    wow....missed taking your meds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    And topspeed, without getting too close to you. But your system is so far away from High End that i dont think you can really eveluate those systems at all. You are properbly very impressed by a Nautilus 800.....actually the only reason why that old snell looking nautilus is there is because people cant afford it and settle for a cheap 7NT because it contains the same technology.....Can you say, "i fell for it" ?

    If you grave for a 800 Nautilus, i can tell you that much. " You have no idea what your missing"....because that Diamond tweeter aint gonna give it to you.

    -Flo
    you go from making good points to name calling...makes your valid points kinda look lame..stop that or you'll be sent to your room...all of you...Lord Whatever and all your other names...with no dinner


    Pogue
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  10. #35
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

    -Flo
    Last edited by Florian; 05-18-2005 at 04:04 AM.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  11. #36
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    And topspeed/woochiefer, without getting too close to you both. But your systems is so far away from High End that i dont think you can really eveluate those systems at all . You are properbly very impressed by a Nautilus 800.....actually the only reason why that old snell looking nautilus (prestige) is there is because people cant afford it and settle for a cheap 7NT because it contains the same technology.....Can you say, "i fell for it" ?

    If you grave for a 800 Nautilus, i can tell you that much. " You have no idea what your missing"....because that Diamond tweeter aint gonna give it to you.

    -Flo
    Without getting too close to you, that's the most self-righteous, pompous, and ridiculously presumptuous piece of crap post that I've yet seen on this site in my five years here. That type of conceitedly snobbish attitude is exactly the kind of sentiment that gives all audiophiles a bad name.

    Just because I don't own a system that in your arrogant estimation equates to "high end", I'm therefore incapable of eliciting an opinion on those kinds of components? Frankly, you don't know squat about the amount of listening I've done or the types of components that I've been around in my many years in the audio hobby. And has it ever occurred to you that people buy their audio systems because it fits their preferences and meets their particular budgetary requirements, rather than because it meets some arbitrary definition of "high end" or impresses people with the five-figure price tags?

    If someone likes the B&W Nautillus 800, it's only because they don't know better? I suggest you check yourself right now, because statements like the one that you made above border on the ridiculous since you have no clue what people have listened to and what their basis of comparison actually is.

    All in all, you'd best do your own credibility some favors by refraining from presuming the types of components that I or anybody else would be impressed by.

  12. #37
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    My 2 cents worth

    Like most audiophiles, I am interested in the technical aspects of the equipment that I'm interested in, but I have long ago discovered that good sound does not necessarily equate with the materials or technology used. There is obviously a lot of art involved as well to meld all the disperate components into something which sounds great. Just because all the materials are top class and all the technology is the latest, does not guarantee anything.

    Of course B&W promotes its wares heavily. I would not expect anything different in our commercial world. Do you pan Merc, or Beemer, or Ford for that matter, for advertsing and promoting their wares? Its still up to us as consumers to weed out the chaff and find that special product which is just right for us. Of course, what is just right for me may be utter crap to my neighbour. Such is life - I married the girl that I did because she lit my fires, but I can't figure out what the guy next door could posibly see in the woman he married. That's what makes life so interesting.

    Although this discussion has gone off track, I have on the whole found it interesting. What I personally find insulting is the obviously snobbish remarks creeping in about people who don't own, or can't afford, high end gear. I identify myself as middle class and due to family and other commitments, could never afford the type of gear I would like to own. Do I therefore deserve the derision of the high income snobs who have more money than good sense?

    My choices have always revolved about the best equipment I could buy for what I could afford - in other words, value for money. Even if I win the lottery, I would never go for the really high end products. Frequently, value lies in the middle ranges, not at the top or bottom.

    Confession time - 6 months ago I bought the B&W 703 (my hi-fi store offered me a deal I could not refuse, 30% off), after searching, on and off, for about five years to replace a set of speakers originally bought in 1980 and which had their tone altered when they were re-woofered. I really wanted to like a number of much cheaper speakers, but even many in the 703's price range, to my ear at least, sounded as if they were playing through cotton wool - muffled and indistinct. Side by side, originally starting with the CDM 9NT, I compared many speakers over the past 5 years, and initially, only listened to B&W for comparison because I did not think I could afford them. I like all type of music, but especially with songs, whether operatic or jazz, I found I could actually hear the words being sung, unlike a lot of speakers where I had to strain. Oops, this post is getting longer than I intended. Let me just summarise - after an initial period of disappointment where I thought I had made a mistake because at first the speakers sounded harsh, I now love them. Partly it was break in, but a lot was dependent on positioning - these have to be a long way from the back wall. They serve general duty for music, TV and DVD. For music at least, my sub has become redundent.

    And, most of all, at my listening position, I do not detect that lack of integration between the seperate drivers alluded to by posters above. One last point - I actually listen to real music (live concerts, a lot). I used to play the violin, my daughter competed in international violin competions, my son plays jazz piano and clarinet and my wife teaches piano. My ears are attuned to real music, not just the canned artificial variety. My basis of comparison is always the live performance, and even the most expensive rigs fail to reproduce absolute realism.

  13. #38
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    And topspeed/woochiefer, without getting too close to you both. But your systems is so far away from High End that i dont think you can really eveluate those systems at all . You are properbly very impressed by a Nautilus 800.....actually the only reason why that old snell looking nautilus (prestige) is there is because people cant afford it and settle for a cheap 7NT because it contains the same technology.....Can you say, "i fell for it" ?

    If you grave for a 800 Nautilus, i can tell you that much. " You have no idea what your missing"....because that Diamond tweeter aint gonna give it to you.

    -Flo
    Flo,

    I'm going to remember your stunted age here and chalk your response up to youthful naivity (or sheer stupidity, whichever fits best). As Wooch stated, this smacks of the kind of self-righteous elitism that makes the word "audiophile" a 4 letter word. It's actually comical that you've anointed yourself with hearing superior to all others. Perhaps a new moniker of Lord GoldenEars is in order? In a few years, perhaps after you're old enough for your testicles to drop, you'll look back on your post and realize its inanity.

    While I wish I could be as eloquent as my friend, alas the words escape me. I also don't see the point in debasing myself by justifying my level of experience. In the end, I would suggest that you refrain from making such huge assumptions about people. You know what happens when you make assumptions:

    You make an ass out of you and umption.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    And topspeed/woochiefer, without getting too close to you both. But your systems is so far away from High End that i dont think you can really eveluate those systems at all . You are properbly very impressed by a Nautilus 800.....actually the only reason why that old snell looking nautilus (prestige) is there is because people cant afford it and settle for a cheap 7NT because it contains the same technology.....Can you say, "i fell for it" ?

    If you grave for a 800 Nautilus, i can tell you that much. " You have no idea what your missing"....because that Diamond tweeter aint gonna give it to you.

    -Flo
    Sigh... I will just put these silly remarks down to youthful exurberance.

  15. #40
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    Being a new B&W owner, I of course was interested in this thread. And it's turned out to be quite lively, to say the least! Funny how heated discussions about audio can get.

    I have not heard the new 800D, or any of the newest 800 line, so I can't comment about them, but I would like to offer an opinion about B&W and value. In my limited experience, I find B&W to offer competitive value at most price points, if you really closely compare. I have not heard the 300 series, but I find the 600's to be very competitive in their class. And also the 700's. The 700's may seem overpriced at first glance, but if you consider driver and cabinet quality, and all-around performance, I feel they are competitive, although perhaps less so than the 600's. The 800N series are, IMO simply the most refined, technologically solid speakers on the market. No hocus-pocus, no bs, just pure engineering expertise. Although they are pretty much all out of my price range, I do lust after them!

    So far, I've just dealt with performance, engineering, and build quality issues, and just on those terms alone I think B&W offers fair value. But then, you have to factor in some of the less tangible things that effect value. For example, I value conservatism in a loudspeaker manufacturer. I don't like flavor-of-the-week, market-driven companies that change out speaker lines like I change the oil in my car. I also value doing business with a company that has been around awhile, and that I have confidence in to be around a long while to come. Resale value, as someone mentioned, is also something to consider. And B&W is extremely strong in that area too.

    So to me, if you look at the big picture, B&W definitely does offer competitive value across most of it's line. My 703's certainly aren't the cheapest thing in their size class, but in their quality class, I think they're darned hard to beat!

  16. #41
    Forum Regular thepogue's Avatar
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    although I don't totally agree...

    Quote Originally Posted by jdm56
    Being a new B&W owner, I of course was interested in this thread. And it's turned out to be quite lively, to say the least! Funny how heated discussions about audio can get.

    I have not heard the new 800D, or any of the newest 800 line, so I can't comment about them, but I would like to offer an opinion about B&W and value. In my limited experience, I find B&W to offer competitive value at most price points, if you really closely compare. I have not heard the 300 series, but I find the 600's to be very competitive in their class. And also the 700's. The 700's may seem overpriced at first glance, but if you consider driver and cabinet quality, and all-around performance, I feel they are competitive, although perhaps less so than the 600's. The 800N series are, IMO simply the most refined, technologically solid speakers on the market. No hocus-pocus, no bs, just pure engineering expertise. Although they are pretty much all out of my price range, I do lust after them!

    So far, I've just dealt with performance, engineering, and build quality issues, and just on those terms alone I think B&W offers fair value. But then, you have to factor in some of the less tangible things that effect value. For example, I value conservatism in a loudspeaker manufacturer. I don't like flavor-of-the-week, market-driven companies that change out speaker lines like I change the oil in my car. I also value doing business with a company that has been around awhile, and that I have confidence in to be around a long while to come. Resale value, as someone mentioned, is also something to consider. And B&W is extremely strong in that area too.

    So to me, if you look at the big picture, B&W definitely does offer competitive value across most of it's line. My 703's certainly aren't the cheapest thing in their size class, but in their quality class, I think they're darned hard to beat!
    I fully respect your position because it's well thought out, clear and honest. Good for you...when you approach equipment shopping in this manner you'll never be sorry...BTW I've spend at least 4 or 5 hours with the 800D and they are very special indeed...but I think it's the 20K part that I get stuck on....


    Peace and well written post, Pogue
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  17. #42
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

    -Flo
    Last edited by Florian; 05-18-2005 at 04:04 AM.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  18. #43
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

    -Flo
    Last edited by Florian; 05-18-2005 at 04:05 AM.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  19. #44
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I apologize for my post, they were uncalled for. I am just stressed and ticked off at life, if i offended someone i am sorry.

    -Flo
    Last edited by Florian; 05-18-2005 at 04:05 AM.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    But i still stand by my opinion that you need to own those systems in order to pass god judement !!

    -Flo
    ROFLMAO! This has got to be the most absolutely foolish statement I have ever read on this board.
    While you may judge the quality of your speakers based on price alone, for those of us that actually listen to speakers instead of judge by pricetag, this statement isn't worth the cyber-space it occupies.

    Any human being, even you, can listen to 2 pairs of $200 speakers and determine which sounds better to them. Owning $45,000 speakers isn't a prerequisite for this.

    This the 2nd time inside a month you've managed to bring your elitist "my expensive gear is better than your inexpensive gear" attitude to a thread and piss off the general public.
    Good job, Mr. Moderator...it looks good on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    the line between Hifi and High End is big and its there, you guys need to accept that
    Oh your worshipfulness, please shed your infinite audio wisdom upon on us so that we who are blind can see the line you speak of...tell us specifically, at what point does Hi-Fi end and High-End begin?
    Please qualify your statments...We'll call them Florian's Rules of Audio...
    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    i can easily sell my current speakers (not VMPs or Maggies) and buy at least two nautiluses....but why dont i? Because they are not even worth a third of their price in my book. And pretty much every other serious audiophile
    Wow, you've spoken with every serious audiophile? That must have taken some time...
    By the way, what is a "serious audiophile"? Are there audiophiles that aren't serious, just joking around perhaps when they listen to dozens of speakers when determining their next purchase? Perhaps you have to spend so much money to be an audiophile?

  21. #46
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    I disagree with the statments on this thread. While i still think that only the people who own this kind of equipment have the right to pass judgment correctly, i am sure that almost everyone can tell the difference between two speakers in the same price range.

    -Flo

    PS: Eventough i am a moderator for the gallery, does not mean that i have to agree with all.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    While i still think that only the people who own this kind of equipment have the right to pass judgment correctly.
    Nope, You do not need to own another 20K speaker to correctly judge the sound quality of similar priced speakers.

  23. #48
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Well thats were i disagree. You need to spend time with a component and try it in your own room with different electronics in order to pass judgement. By liking a lower end model , one cannot state that the higer model is better. The Nautilus 800 which is a fine speaker, sounds very different from a 700 series. It also requires much higher electronics to sound good. I just think that if you dont run equipment like a Nautilus 802, VMPS RM40/RMX, Maggie 3.6 or big Dynaudio etc... you are not able to correctly judge systems of this caliper.

    -Flo
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  24. #49
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    Florian, you're making no sense at all... If you are incapable of judging gear unless you already own similarly performing gear, how in the hell could you ever be confident you are upgrading your system? How would you ever buy a speaker in of a higher level than you already have?
    Gonna take audiophile recommendations at face-value? Yeah right...

  25. #50
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Either its a language barrier that i cant brake or i am simply an idiot today. I will just stop for now.

    -Flo
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

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