Are Bose 301 Speakers the best in there price range?

[Woochifer]

I'm afraid you underestimate the intelligence of the consumer. Hype as a business strategy will only get you so far. I've already admitted that (at MSRP) Bose speakers probably aren't the best deal out there, but that should be no surprise. All big name companies charge a premium.

But, Bose charges the biggest premium among the "big name" audio companies for the performance that they deliver. That's what people consistently call Bose out on.

A Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system will cost anywhere from $1,600 to $4,000. In contrast, Sony's DVD Dream systems cost $400 to $1,500 (except for their $2,000 wireless system). Yamaha's Cinemastation integrated systems cost $450 to $650. So, tell me where's the premium that these guys are charging if the Bose systems routinely cost 3x, 4x, or up to 10x more? Or are you trying to forward the argument that Sony and Yamaha aren't "big name companies"?

Nevertheless, you can't just hype your way to success without delivering a quality product. That business model just doesn't work. I'm sorry to go against the grain of established audiophile dogma, but what you're saying just isn't true.

Nothing to do with going against established audiophile dogma. Your posts are offering up plenty of unsubstantiated claims and strawman arguments that have little basis in reality. Not all audiophiles and hobbyists subscribe to the lunatic fringe pseudoscience that you've taken it upon yourself to ascribe to everybody who simply takes Bose to task for the lax sound quality that they're offering up at a specific price point. I mean, what is "established audiophile dogma" anyway? How does pointing out superior sound for the same price constitute a dogmatic approach?

Like I said earlier, compared to a TV speaker, a Bose Lifestyle system will sound pretty damn good. But, if you line it up against comparably priced competition, the performance deficiencies are all too easy to listen for and measure.

The truth is that Bose bashing is simply a way for audiophiles to stand out from the masses (period).

The truth is that many people on this board have owned Bose products before (usually purchased as their first audio system), so their disdain comes through experience. Who better to criticize Bose than one of their former customers? The truth is that I've never met anyone who at one time or another owned a Bose system, and then for their next audio system, purchased another Bose system.

Earlier you talked about underestmating the intelligence of the consumer, yet here you are claiming that people's opinions about a product are formed only because they want to "stand out from the masses." Obviously, it hasn't occurred to you that people bash Bose because they've done their due diligence and comparisons (something that you likely haven't done), and come to their own conclusions about the product quality and value (or lack thereof) that Bose represents.

If audiophiles were really ONLY concerned about value (as you claim) then they would go off on companies that sell things like this:

......

Yep. I could go one, but I think I've made my point for now.

Another strawman argument, since not all audiophiles purchase the kinds of products that you link to. This board has had plenty of debates over the years regarding the validity of expensive and questionably effective tweaks, so your labeling exercise once again does not hold up. When it comes to Bose, it's very much a question of value/performance for the money, and whether their design approaches (such as the direct/reflecting drivers and bandpass bass module) produce worse sound quality than more widely accepted approaches.

Trying to muddy the waters with presumptions about how audiophiles like to spend their money has nothing to do with why people criticize Bose. I know that I've never colored my CDs with green markers, or bought a "dual beam clarifier", or used ceramic cable lifters, etc. I've based my opinions on actual listenings and comparisons. And on that basis, Bose comes up consistently short. Obviously, a lot of others have come to similar conclusions after doing their listenings.

[njspeer]

Firstly, I don't know of any audiophiles concerned with value really. They care about sound. Good sound. Something you don't have. Something people can have for a lot cheaper than Bose can give them for a ton more money.

Is it me, or do these sentences contradict each other? Anyway, they definitely contradict what you said in you're other post. See below.

[from prior post]The whole point of all these flame attacks on Bose is that they are *not* a good deal at their price point.

I guess we can just make it up as we go along.

Nice of you to group everybody into one group and tell us how they think though, thanks.

Hey, it's called anthropology. But wait. Didn't we just group everybody into one group in our last post? Let's find out. See below.

[from prior post]People will buy garbage if you can convince them it's treasure.

He he. Like I said: we can just make it up as we go along.

[GMichael]

Maybe, but you'll still never catch me paying $2000 for a wooden knob. LOL!

BTW, just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I put on Bob Dylan's "Don't Think Twice," crunk up the volume on the ol' Sansui, and my vintage 901s sound good - really good.

Repeat after me. There's no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place like home.

[GMichael]

But, Bose charges the biggest premium among the "big name" audio companies for the performance that they deliver. That's what people consistently call Bose out on.

A Bose 5.1 Lifestyle system will cost anywhere from $1,600 to $4,000. In contrast, Sony's DVD Dream systems cost $400 to $1,500 (except for their $2,000 wireless system). Yamaha's Cinemastation integrated systems cost $450 to $650. So, tell me where's the premium that these guys are charging if the Bose systems routinely cost 3x, 4x, or up to 10x more? Or are you trying to forward the argument that Sony and Yamaha aren't "big name companies"?



Nothing to do with going against established audiophile dogma. Your posts are offering up plenty of unsubstantiated claims and strawman arguments that have little basis in reality. Not all audiophiles and hobbyists subscribe to the lunatic fringe pseudoscience that you've taken it upon yourself to ascribe to everybody who simply takes Bose to task for the lax sound quality that they're offering up at a specific price point. I mean, what is "established audiophile dogma" anyway? How does pointing out superior sound for the same price constitute a dogmatic approach?

Like I said earlier, compared to a TV speaker, a Bose Lifestyle system will sound pretty damn good. But, if you line it up against comparably priced competition, the performance deficiencies are all too easy to listen for and measure.



The truth is that many people on this board have owned Bose products before (usually purchased as their first audio system), so their disdain comes through experience. Who better to criticize Bose than one of their former customers? The truth is that I've never met anyone who at one time or another owned a Bose system, and then for their next audio system, purchased another Bose system.

Earlier you talked about underestmating the intelligence of the consumer, yet here you are claiming that people's opinions about a product are formed only because they want to "stand out from the masses." Obviously, it hasn't occurred to you that people bash Bose because they've done their due diligence and comparisons (something that you likely haven't done), and come to their own conclusions about the product quality and value (or lack thereof) that Bose represents.



Another strawman argument, since not all audiophiles purchase the kinds of products that you link to. This board has had plenty of debates over the years regarding the validity of expensive and questionably effective tweaks, so your labeling exercise once again does not hold up. When it comes to Bose, it's very much a question of value/performance for the money, and whether their design approaches (such as the direct/reflecting drivers and bandpass bass module) produce worse sound quality than more widely accepted approaches.

Trying to muddy the waters with presumptions about how audiophiles like to spend their money has nothing to do with why people criticize Bose. I know that I've never colored my CDs with green markers, or bought a "dual beam clarifier", or used ceramic cable lifters, etc. I've based my opinions on actual listenings and comparisons. And on that basis, Bose comes up consistently short. Obviously, a lot of others have come to similar conclusions after doing their listenings.

This all makes perfect sense. So I predict that he will not understand any of it. He will twist it all up so that it will have a new meaning. Here's what he will read, "Bose is great and everyone here just says that it isn't because we are a bunch of sheep following each other around sniffing each other's butts." We all just spend thousands on wooden knobs and sonic snott.
Forget the facts. They don't mean a thing to him.

[L.J.]

Well this has been a fun one to read.......it's been awhile

[GMichael]

Well this has been a fun one to read.......it's been awhile

Almost like the good ol' days huh? Can you pass me the popcorn?

[noddin0ff]

Give the guy an advanced degree in trolling!

[GMichael]

Give the guy an advanced degree in trolling!

Not until he brings his teacher an apple.

[Resident Loser]

...when Polk's were considered an "insider" speaker...spoken of with reverence and in hushed tones in darkened hallways...but...out comes the advertising and mass-market sales from BB and CC and whoever...get my drift...so in some respect our Bose fan is correct...the more sales nearly anything gets seems inversely proportional to the opinion of the audiopile community...

Are Bose products overpriced?

Yes...someone has to pay for all the advertising...think along the lines of "free" tee-vee...every jar of tomato sauce or 6-pack of beer could be much cheaper if they weren't advertised so heavily...

Do many of their products fail (Lifestyle sytems, etc.) at any sort of integration with standard RCA-terminated gear?

Yes...but they are marketed and sold to folks who want quick and clean installation/enjoyment...they achieve the corporate goal in spades...

I personally have a problem with closed-end systems AND the operating parameters of their bass modules AND non-Bose single summing subs in general.

Are they the best?

By someone's definition they are...name recognition is priceless...

The 301s are a decent speaker...but...they do have the sonic signature of the Bose Direct/Reflecting speakers...which is not the same as any direct radiator. Can't be...their design and intent are quite far apart in practice. Comparison of the two is the proverbial "apples/oranges" IMO. If you own 901s as fronts, the 301s make perfect rears...the 301s as fronts, approximate the sound of the 901s, but with a lesser degree of success of the "stereo everywhere" presentation...

As an aside, 901s can be used as a part of an HT setup only if the AV reciever has a true "tape mon" ckt or if one plans to use outboard power amps...the 901 EQ requires either one for the speakers to operate properly...Bose can supply compatibility info on request.

IMNSHO, those used to the direct-radiator types of loudspeakers, will never be happy with the Bose sound or presentation and quite converesly, once you identify with the qualities of a properly set-up set of 901s and listen into them, nearly everything else fails by comparison...feel free to make all the insulting remarks you might care to...DQ-10s were in the running, but there was a sonic asymmetry (which I later found out was subsequently rectified with the mirror-image mod) that disturbed me....About 20yrs. ago I heard an electrostatic that compared somewhat favorably, but I detected a distinct disconnect, if you will, between the dynamic woofer and the 'stat panels...plus they required too much room and too much $$$.

Out of curiosity, how many manufacturers would sell you the latest version of an item for the same price that you paid 20yrs ago. When my 301-IIs fell victim to foam-rot. that was the offer from Bose when I inquired about replacement parts...seems like pretty attentive customer support to me. As I recall, Skeptic had a similar offer re: his 901s...

My 901-IIs (MSRP $525/pr) are now over 30yrs. old...that says something...I haven't grown weary of them and they still do what they're supposed to...quite well I might add. Bass response is second-to-none in my highly anecdotal opinion. I rarely admit to owning them...take a wild guess as to why that might be...

Would I buy them again?

Well, mine were the last acoustic-suspension design before they went to the ported acoustic matrix...I understand the newer vintages aren't quite up-to-snuff in some regards and listening in a showroom leaves lots to be desired...I really would have to bring them home to a suitable environment for a fair evaluation...My response would be a definite I dunno'...problem is, I've not heard anything else in recent memory that I found acceptable...and yes, I do listen, I'm not deaf and, being a musician, I know what live sounds like...but then again recordings, more often than not, rarely give the same sonic cues that one gets in a live presentation, so that might be a moot point.

Are they for everyone? No...can't think of anything that satisfies everyone...but that's why they make vanilla and chocolate.

jimHJJ(...which is why I hardly make specific recommendations and suggest folks listen for themselves...)

[emaidel]

I too am a 'wine snob" and proud of it. I also intensely dislike Bose, but I'm not a fan of JBL either, so what does that make me?

Comparing one's tastes in audio to one's ability to distinguish subtle differences in wines is ludicrous, and shows such posters' ignorance of what makes a wine truly good. Despite comments to the contrary, price is very much an object, and I've never spend thousands of dollars for a single bottle of wine, and never will, but I can certainly tell the difference between a mediocre and a fine red wine. I consider touring the wine country in Northern California one of life's supreme enjoyments, and one in which, if people are genuinely interested, a lot can be learned.

The fact that many wineries sell lots of cheaper, less substantial wines is no indication of that winery's overall quality. Indeed, the famous Robert Mondavi winery was recently sold due to serious financial issues due to the younger Mondavi brothers' insistence on concentrating on rotgut and not the fine wines that established the winery's original fine reputation.

Many fine wines are indeed overpriced, and the same can be said for many a Bose product (and has in fact been said in several posts to this thread). Ridiculing those of us who enjoy the experience of wine-tasting, and comparing us to audio spendthrifts is pointless and silly.

[topspeed]

Jim,

There are actually very few posts where members are proclaiming the 901's or 301's as outright garbage. We aren't calling out Bose so much as calling out njspeer. At best, he's a tool, at worst a troll. Blanket statements, bold generalizations, and a complete lack of respect buoyed by a dearth of facts. He has found it convenient to lump anyone that doesn't agree with him into one big cauldron of audio voodoo and snake oil.

Skep loved his 901's and even modified them quite heavily w/ supertweeters IIRC. No one had a problem with him or his speaks. It's the poster, not the subject.

[topspeed]

Indeed, the famous Robert Mondavi winery was recently sold due to serious financial issues due to the younger Mondavi brothers' insistence on concentrating on rotgut and not the fine wines that established the winery's original fine reputation.

Actually, Mondavi's downfall was when took the company public in '93. This was followed by installing a BOD who placed shareholder benefits over quality and brand equity. If you are a wine aficionado, you'll find this article enlightening as well as heartbreaking.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/busin...6045/index.htm

It's sad because without Mondavi, there would be no Napa Valley as we know it. Most of the great winemakers were at some time involved with Mondavi Wineries in some shape or form.

One of my favorite memories is of a week long vacation whereas my girlfriend (now wife) and I drove my Saab convertible up through Napa following the Russian River to Mendocino. We must have stopped at a coupla' dozen wineries and microbreweries as we made our way north. However, at Mondavi we were lucky enough to be given a tour my Peter, Robert's newphew, who promptly took us off the beaten path and showed us the inner workings of the facility. We ended the tour in a private building where they held special events. Peter quickly got on the phone and had the staff bring in a few magnums of Cabs, Zins, and assorted others...all Reserve! If that weren't enough, he proclaimed that you can really enjoy wine without something to complement it so he had the kitchen bring in some duck pate, fine cheeses, and other assorted hors d'eurves. We ended up eating and drinking for the next hour or so, all the while overlooking the beautiful vinyards. It was amazing! Needless to say, we left with a few cases in tow .

[Resident Loser]

...most of the time, negative generalities abound re: Bose and within related threads ...and most of the time, I keep my mouth shut (or more appropriately put on a pair of mittens)...I mean, what's the use...but I do see the same type of rhetoric more often than not, and when njspeer started shoveling the same sort of generalized negativity re: his particular agenda, I found it, and some of the reactions to it, amusing...

I mean it really gets old to see the same ol' Bose-bashing or comments on the gullibility/deafness of the typical Bose customer..."lumped" if you will...

Obviously, there are some aspects of Bose products that leave a lot to be desired, and I neither suggest nor defend them...in fact, I'm more apt to point out their shortcomings...Every so often, I simply feel compelled to provide some defensive statements (as anecdotal as the may be) against the constant onslaught of "...no highs, no lows, it must be Bose..." or "Blose" or how the 901s are obsolete(?) or how bein' half-in-the-bag makes 'em sound good...that sorta' thing. I do try consider the source, keeping it in some context, and I do get a sense of self-satisfaction that the ones who are the most vocal are quite lucky that breathing is a function of the autonomic nervous system...

Hmmm...a nice ripe Stilton with some walnuts and perhaps a glass of Olorosso...or a beren auslese...

jimHJJ(...too bad I no longer indulge in the fermented grape...)

[GMichael]

...most of the time, negative generalities abound re: Bose and within related threads ...and most of the time, I keep my mouth shut (or more appropriately put on a pair of mittens)...I mean, what's the use...but I do see the same type of rhetoric more often than not, and when njspeer started shoveling the same sort of generalized negativity re: his particular agenda, I found it, and some of the reactions to it, amusing...

I mean it really gets old to see the same ol' Bose-bashing or comments on the gullibility/deafness of the typical Bose customer..."lumped" if you will...

Obviously, there are some aspects of Bose products that leave a lot to be desired, and I neither suggest nor defend them...in fact, I'm more apt to point out their shortcomings...Every so often, I simply feel compelled to provide some defensive statements (as anecdotal as the may be) against the constant onslaught of "...no highs, no lows, it must be Bose..." or "Blose" or how the 901s are obsolete(?) or how bein' half-in-the-bag makes 'em sound good...that sorta' thing. I do try consider the source, keeping it in some context, and I do get a sense of self-satisfaction that the ones who are the most vocal are quite lucky that breathing is a function of the autonomic nervous system...

Hmmm...a nice ripe Stilton with some walnuts and perhaps a glass of Olorosso...or a beren auslese...

jimHJJ(...too bad I no longer indulge in the fermented grape...)

My point was that I don't have a problem with Bose. I even own some Bose. When I posted as such he glossed right over that and went into twisting words out of context to mean something totaly different than what was being said.

I don't mind Bose. Still think that they are charging too much, but they are OK.

But a troll is a troll is a troll. I had fun feeding him. I know, that makes me a baaaaaaaaaaaad poster. But it was still fun.

hehehehehehehehehe

[paul_pci]

Redtail is one of my favorite beers.

Actually, Mondavi's downfall was when took the company public in '93. This was followed by installing a BOD who placed shareholder benefits over quality and brand equity. If you are a wine aficionado, you'll find this article enlightening as well as heartbreaking.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/busin...6045/index.htm

It's sad because without Mondavi, there would be no Napa Valley as we know it. Most of the great winemakers were at some time involved with Mondavi Wineries in some shape or form.

One of my favorite memories is of a week long vacation whereas my girlfriend (now wife) and I drove my Saab convertible up through Napa following the Russian River to Mendocino. We must have stopped at a coupla' dozen wineries and microbreweries as we made our way north. However, at Mondavi we were lucky enough to be given a tour my Peter, Robert's newphew, who promptly took us off the beaten path and showed us the inner workings of the facility. We ended the tour in a private building where they held special events. Peter quickly got on the phone and had the staff bring in a few magnums of Cabs, Zins, and assorted others...all Reserve! If that weren't enough, he proclaimed that you can really enjoy wine without something to complement it so he had the kitchen bring in some duck pate, fine cheeses, and other assorted hors d'eurves. We ended up eating and drinking for the next hour or so, all the while overlooking the beautiful vinyards. It was amazing! Needless to say, we left with a few cases in tow .

[noddin0ff]

However, at Mondavi we were lucky enough to be given a tour my Peter, Robert's newphew, who promptly took us off the beaten path and showed us the inner workings of the facility. We ended the tour in a private building where they held special events. Peter quickly got on the phone and had the staff bring in a few magnums of Cabs, Zins, and assorted others...all Reserve! If that weren't enough, he proclaimed that you can really enjoy wine without something to complement it so he had the kitchen bring in some duck pate, fine cheeses, and other assorted hors d'eurves. We ended up eating and drinking for the next hour or so, all the while overlooking the beautiful vinyards. It was amazing! Needless to say, we left with a few cases in tow .

Ok, I'm jealous!

[KaiWinters]

Just mention the name "BOSE" and the fingers begin to fly on the keyboard. God pity the "hunt and peck" person lol.

No matter the forum just mention "My friend is considering the BOSE...insert what you want...is this a good buy"? in a thread and the fur starts flying.

No other brand brings out such responses.

Very interesting in general though calling people names because of their choices, etc. is rather rude and tends to push people away rather than provide insight and a learning experience.

I prefer to think of myself as an "audio enthusiast" rather than an audiophile. It works for me. Been one since I bought my first "FM Converter" for my car in 1973. Still customize my cars system as well as my wifes, sons and daughters...same goes for my home system. But it is all on a budget I can afford, products that I can hear/compare, meet my needs/desires and puts me in the dog house for only brief periods.

I have a pair of old 301's and they did what I needed them to do for the money I could spend and the speakers available to me at the time.

I definately would not spend the money on the Bose Lifestyle systems knowing what I can get for less and the better sound but I would not disrespect someone that does like and buy such a system and think its great. It is all a matter of taste.

[ChrisY]

Thank you everyone for your opinions . I went with Polks as I find them inexpensive and very pleasing to my ears and Polk has an incredible website. Thank you kindly everyone.

[JeffKnob]

This argument sounds like our last presidential election. There was tons of proof that Bush (Bose) was horrible but because of propoganda (marketing), people were molded to think he was the best there ever was.

[GMichael]

Thank you everyone for your opinions . I went with Polks as I find them inexpensive and very pleasing to my ears and Polk has an incredible website. Thank you kindly everyone.

Enjoy. I'm sure the Polks will make you happy. What model did you go with?

[ChrisY]

Enjoy. I'm sure the Polks will make you happy. What model did you go with?

Polk R 30s which are the cheapest floorstanding speakers by Polk thus far and at 35 bucks (clearance) each there perfect for my small ,cheap but decnt sounding 5.1 system.

[GMichael]

Polk R 30s which are the cheapest floorstanding speakers by Polk thus far and at 35 bucks (clearance) each there perfect for my small ,cheap but decnt sounding 5.1 system.

Wow! I did a quick check on Google. They look great. Great deal & great reviews. http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/polk-...7_1594crx.aspx

What's next for your upgrade list? I want a new sub.

[emaidel]

Actually, Mondavi's downfall was when took the company public in '93. This was followed by installing a BOD who placed shareholder benefits over quality and brand equity..

You are correct, but then so too am I. Mondavi's downfall incorporated a number of different mistakes, and all of them were very well documented in a recent issue of The Wine Spectator.

I too have experienced the joy of sampling different (and "reserve") wines, accompanied by delicious pates, cheeses and so forth, and that's one of the reasons I stated as I did how much I enjoy a trip through the wine country.

I find that the more I learn about wine, the less I actually know. With audio, I too consider myself an "audio enthusiast," as opposed to an "audiophile," but thoroughly dislike anything Bose. When I first toured the Mondavi winery, and saw all of its sparkling, metal storage tanks, as opposed to the oak ones used by others, my traveling companion called the facility "The Bose of the wine industry."

[ChrisY]

Wow! I did a quick check on Google. They look great. Great deal & great reviews. http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/polk-...7_1594crx.aspx

What's next for your upgrade list? I want a new sub.

Well im not sure whats next for awhile, my girlfriend is putting a cigarette out on my new fascination but i'll keep you posted.

[paul_pci]

Well im not sure whats next for awhile, my girlfriend is putting a cigarette out on my new fascination but i'll keep you posted.

That happens all too often. Stash some money away and continue to expose yourself to quality audio equipment. Good luck with the Polks. They were my first speakers.