Best Subwoofer for $500 or less

[kexodusc]

The new PE sub kits have sparked my interest as well. Have you had a chance to do an in room frequency response on your 12" kit? Does it have good response down to 20Hz?

I build the 12" for my folks, and only had it in my place for a about 8 days. In my old room I couldn't get below 23 Hz response, but that, I'm sure had more to do with my room acoustics (it was 24 X 24 square) than the sub itself. Which is fine, my tested hearing doesn't pick up much below 22Hz.

My PW-2200 on the other hand cut out in the same room at 24 Hz, despite measurements to 19Hz or something.
At 1/2 the price it is far, far better.
To be honest, I owned the older Hsu Research VTF-2 model and it couldn't keep up with my PW-2200. I feel pretty confident extrapolating that the PE kit would destroy it.

I've ordered the 15" Titanic MKIII woofer and 1000 watt plate amp for the larger model (building a box myself to match the speakers I built), for the money, no commercial subwoofer, on-line retailer or B&M store, can come close.
For more measurements of actual in room performance, you should visit the PE forums. Lots testaments there from people who've owned the popular Hsu Research and SVS subs, Velodynes, Paradigm's, etc....

Good luck

[46minaudio]

I build the 12" for my folks, and only had it in my place for a about 8 days. In my old room I couldn't get below 23 Hz response, but that, I'm sure had more to do with my room acoustics (it was 24 X 24 square) than the sub itself. Which is fine, my tested hearing doesn't pick up much below 22Hz.

My PW-2200 on the other hand cut out in the same room at 24 Hz, despite measurements to 19Hz or something.
At 1/2 the price it is far, far better.
To be honest, I owned the older Hsu Research VTF-2 model and it couldn't keep up with my PW-2200. I feel pretty confident extrapolating that the PE kit would destroy it.

I've ordered the 15" Titanic MKIII woofer and 1000 watt plate amp for the larger model (building a box myself to match the speakers I built), for the money, no commercial subwoofer, on-line retailer or B&M store, can come close.
For more measurements of actual in room performance, you should visit the PE forums. Lots testaments there from people who've owned the popular Hsu Research and SVS subs, Velodynes, Paradigm's, etc....

Good luck

Kex check this driver out at only $329...
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/Avalanche%2015.htm
Same tech as the as the Adire..I bought one of the 500 watt amps from PE on the DOTD.This may be the driver i use.I modled a 8cubic ft box tuned to 17hz on winisd ported that looks good//..

[Luis31]

I My PW-2200 on the other hand cut out in the same room at 24 Hz, despite measurements to 19Hz or something.
At 1/2 the price it is far, far better. To be honest, I owned the older Hsu Research VTF-2 model and it couldn't keep up with my PW-2200. I feel pretty confident extrapolating that the PE kit would destroy it.

Interesting, Kexodusc

I had quite the opposite experience between my VTF-2 MK1 and the Paradigm PW-2200. In both my HT/Music systems, the VTF-2 outperformed the Paradigm PW-2200. I had similar reads in outputs from 25Hz-60Hz in both subs at 109dB, but in both rooms, the PW-2200 rolled off quickly below 25Hz. On the other hand, the VTF-2 played louder with more authority and pitch definition down to 20Hz at 93dB. In music, the PW-2200 tended to "bloom" a little too much even after properly calibrating it, the VTF-2 simply trounced it.

In the end, I sold the PW-2200 and bought the "superb" VTF-3 MKII

Go figure...

[mjon99]

I build the 12" for my folks, and only had it in my place for a about 8 days. In my old room I couldn't get below 23 Hz response, but that, I'm sure had more to do with my room acoustics (it was 24 X 24 square) than the sub itself. Which is fine, my tested hearing doesn't pick up much below 22Hz.

My PW-2200 on the other hand cut out in the same room at 24 Hz, despite measurements to 19Hz or something.
At 1/2 the price it is far, far better.
To be honest, I owned the older Hsu Research VTF-2 model and it couldn't keep up with my PW-2200. I feel pretty confident extrapolating that the PE kit would destroy it.

I've ordered the 15" Titanic MKIII woofer and 1000 watt plate amp for the larger model (building a box myself to match the speakers I built), for the money, no commercial subwoofer, on-line retailer or B&M store, can come close.
For more measurements of actual in room performance, you should visit the PE forums. Lots testaments there from people who've owned the popular Hsu Research and SVS subs, Velodynes, Paradigm's, etc....

Good luck

Kex,
I'm always reading about DIY subs and have checked out the kits on PE. Other than the amp, box and driver what else is included? Are there any other wires/hookups that need to be purchased when you decided to buy the amp and driver and build the box yourself? Or is it as simple as out from amp in to driver and that's it. That seems just too easy and if that's all that's needed I don't see why more people don't do this instead of paying for a name. Although, I assume that it's more complicated to build mains myself opposed to a sub.

[kexodusc]

mjon99:
The woofers just use your basic spring posts, no soldering required. Haven't seen the 15" woofer, but I'm pretty sure it'd be the same, take a look at some pics at PE's website.
Yep, it really is that easy...you'll need a knife some glue or spray adhesive and some screwdrivers and wrenches...way too easy.

I look at it like building computers...I know a million guys that have assembled some or all of their own personal computers with the same parts they'd get from Dell or whoever, but saved a bundle...same thing with DIY speakers and subs.

And building mains isn't nearly as hard as you'd think if you can solder...buy a soldering iron and practice soldering paper clips or finishing nails and in a few hours you'll be more than ready to assemble any kit with pre-fab enclosures. If you can build your own, even better...it's way more work, but far more rewarding.

I'm in the middle of replacing my Paradigm Studio 40's and 20's with none other than the audioreview.com DIY kit by Ed Frias. These are the 2nd speaker design I've built myself, and the 3rd project I've completed (first was a vifa/scan-speak tower combo I had much help with).
The ar.com DIY's are just better at everything than the 20's and have almost as much bass as the 40's, but the bass is more accurate and tight, IMO...the soundstage is much wider, deeper and the imaging is equal if not better...The midrange and high end detail is where the DIY's really move ahead of the Studio's, I really can't think of a commercial speaker under $1200 I like better than these...sure I'm biased now, but it took alot of nerve for me to replace $900 and $1200 speakers with $250 worth of parts.

Warning, the DIY think is dreadfully addictive...I'm on my 3rd speaker project, and about to start my 2nd sub project. I don't think I've really "saved" any money, just learned a lot, picked up a relaxing, enjoyable hobby, and achieved much superior sound.

DIY is a great way to get the most for the least, but keep in mind I haven't designed any of these (that's next after the 15")...designing from scratch, the trial and error etc, would consume a bit more time...the DIY community is great and there's tons of info available though.

Good luck.

[mjon99]

mjon99:
The woofers just use your basic spring posts, no soldering required. Haven't seen the 15" woofer, but I'm pretty sure it'd be the same, take a look at some pics at PE's website.
Yep, it really is that easy...you'll need a knife some glue or spray adhesive and some screwdrivers and wrenches...way too easy.

I look at it like building computers...I know a million guys that have assembled some or all of their own personal computers with the same parts they'd get from Dell or whoever, but saved a bundle...same thing with DIY speakers and subs.

And building mains isn't nearly as hard as you'd think if you can solder...buy a soldering iron and practice soldering paper clips or finishing nails and in a few hours you'll be more than ready to assemble any kit with pre-fab enclosures. If you can build your own, even better...it's way more work, but far more rewarding.

I'm in the middle of replacing my Paradigm Studio 40's and 20's with none other than the audioreview.com DIY kit by Ed Frias. These are the 2nd speaker design I've built myself, and the 3rd project I've completed (first was a vifa/scan-speak tower combo I had much help with).
The ar.com DIY's are just better at everything than the 20's and have almost as much bass as the 40's, but the bass is more accurate and tight, IMO...the soundstage is much wider, deeper and the imaging is equal if not better...The midrange and high end detail is where the DIY's really move ahead of the Studio's, I really can't think of a commercial speaker under $1200 I like better than these...sure I'm biased now, but it took alot of nerve for me to replace $900 and $1200 speakers with $250 worth of parts.

Warning, the DIY think is dreadfully addictive...I'm on my 3rd speaker project, and about to start my 2nd sub project. I don't think I've really "saved" any money, just learned a lot, picked up a relaxing, enjoyable hobby, and achieved much superior sound.

DIY is a great way to get the most for the least, but keep in mind I haven't designed any of these (that's next after the 15")...designing from scratch, the trial and error etc, would consume a bit more time...the DIY community is great and there's tons of info available though.

Good luck.

Kex,

Thanks for the info. If I went the route of building my own box could you recommend a website that would explain the needed dimensions (cubic feet) depending on the size driver I use. Also, would you use the Dayton MKIII or is there a different brand you prefer or would steer me towards? And in terms of sound is there much of a difference between a 12" and 15"? My room is 15' x 18' and it would be mostly used for HT.

Thanks

[kexodusc]

All good questions...You can download a few design options by clicking "project ideas" on the woofer page at the PE website, or you can just copy the Titanic MKIII cabinet dimensions and build it yourself. If you're really keen, you could hit the PE forum and ask for some advice...there's lots of people who ask this same question for other woofers, and people would be glad to help you choose dimensions.

I would think for your room the 12" would be more than enough, but for the price, fun factor, and extra performance, you could go all the way with the 15"...the difference is about 10 dB max volume output, double the power, and the ability to go below 20 Hz vs. about 22 Hz in room. The 15" goes below 20 Hz and is tight and accurate. Check the DIY forums, I think Sealed did a review on the 15" a few months back here.

There's alot of guys who've built that and compare it to $2000-$3000 servo models and the latest and greatest popular internet retailers prime models....even if it falls short a bit, the price is right. As I said, my PW-2200 is outperformed , enough to warrant selling it and replacing it with the 12" MKIII. The 15" would be a massive upgrade, so that's what I'm doing.

Here's my take...if you build the 12" and love it, but still feel like you need a bit more, you could end up driving yourself crazy wishing you went with the 15". If you build the 15" and still aren't happy, you just have unrealistic expectations for DIY sub in this price range.

I can't say the MKIII's are the best woofers or best kit out there because I haven't heard them all, but in the last 14 months I have yet to find anything that's received as much praise from the knowledgeable DIY community and non DIY-ers who took the plunge (myself included). I know there's lots of popular kits out there, but these seem to stand out. The next step up in kits will cost considerably more. The option exists to design your own cabinet and elect to use a port (or not) and just use the woofer and plate amp, but the Kit's design is tested and proven. Dayton makes awesome drivers for the money, great value and solid performance. Good reputation among DIY-ers too, which means you can probably sell the sub, or the parts used if you ever get ambitious and want something more.

The only downside is the 15" will require more space and money...she ain't small.
When were you thinking of starting it?

[mjon99]

I wasn't planning to do this anytime soon. Maybe with in the next year or so. I'll probably upgrade my mains or receiver first before I do this. If and when I do, I'll probably try to build my own cabinet so I can make it more pleasing to the eye instead of having large bland cube. Thanks for all your input.

[Woochifer]

All good questions...You can download a few design options by clicking "project ideas" on the woofer page at the PE website, or you can just copy the Titanic MKIII cabinet dimensions and build it yourself. If you're really keen, you could hit the PE forum and ask for some advice...there's lots of people who ask this same question for other woofers, and people would be glad to help you choose dimensions.

I would think for your room the 12" would be more than enough, but for the price, fun factor, and extra performance, you could go all the way with the 15"...the difference is about 10 dB max volume output, double the power, and the ability to go below 20 Hz vs. about 22 Hz in room. The 15" goes below 20 Hz and is tight and accurate. Check the DIY forums, I think Sealed did a review on the 15" a few months back here.

Now you've piqued my interest in the PE Titanic kits. I'm curious more about how they would compare to the Adire Rava. When I started shopping around for a sealed sub in the under-$500 price range three years ago, my options at that time were pretty much limited to the Rava and the PE kit. I went with the Rava because it cost less than the 12" Titanic kit, and it came fully assembled with a veneered oak cabinet. Now, the number of sealed options in the under-$600 price range has increased a lot with models introduced in the last two years from B&W, Atlantic, Acoustic Visions, Rocket, and Martin Logan.

I can understand the appeal of the Titanic kit because it allows you to tailor the cabinet and/or port dimensions to whatever performance parameters you're looking for. But, looking at it point by point with the Rava, I'm curious as to the advantage of the Titanic.

Basically, the Titanic has a more powerful 500 watt amp that comes with a one channel parametric EQ, while the Rava uses a higher capacity driver. (Adire's website claims a higher swept volume, longer driver excursion, and higher SPL for the Shiva driver over the Titanic driver)

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/...eFrameText.htm

Basically, the Shiva driver and the plate amp used in the Rava would cost about $300 just for the parts. For the extra $100, the Rava throws in a veneered cabinet and assembly. I know that the plate amp that comes with the Titanic kit costs about $120 more than the amp that's in the Rava, but the cost difference between the Rava and the 12" Titanic kit is about $136.

I guess my question is what more does the Titanic kit offer over the Rava? The Rava is essentially a glorified DIY project culled together from well regarded parts and built to a Q alignment (0.67) that's slightly biased towards longer frequency extension but not too far off from the Butterworth alignment (.707) that is statistically closest to a flat response.

The Parts Express site doesn't say too much about the Titanic kit's tonal characteristics. Since it's a sealed box, I would be curious about its Q alignment. The ACI sealed subs are built to a Q alignment of 0.6, which is extends the frequency range and is commonly regarded as a more "musical" alignment. I also read somewhere that B&W's sealed subs have a Q alignment closer to 0.8, which is surprising because that tends to shorten the frequency extension and create a slight boost in the midbass.

I see a lot of recommendations for the Titanic kits, and I've been curious as to what it offers over the Rava despite a higher price and the need to assemble it.

[kexodusc]

Wooch, my plane's about to land so I have to make this quick, but real quickly I've noticed the stats in the link you provide seem to refer to much older Titanic MKII driver...the xmax of the new 12" MK III is a whopping 1.87 cm (or 2-way 3.74 cm), much longer than the Shiva driver, and PE claims a max SPL of over 110 dB's vs the Rava's 105 dB's.
The Titanic moves more air, has lower response, more power, and higher SPL...Parametric EQ (is it one channel?) and it comes in ugly black.
What more could you want?
More tomorrow hopefully.