Best Subwoofer for $500 or less

[Olivertmc]

Dean_martin:

Good memory and thanks for the interest! I have completed my upgrade (and came in just under budget). I must say that I never thought I'd have a system I would be so happy with. Thanks so much for your help and recommendations. Once I connected the new amp and sub, I played one of my wife's favorite songs for her ("She will be Loved" by Maroon 5 - Our music tastes diverge completely) and she responded with "Wow, you have a really good stereo." After living together for 7 years, this was the first time she actually acknowledged that she could hear the quality of the sound. She usually just asks me "which sound is the bass again?"!

So, I'm really pleased and don't think I'll need to make any drastic changes for awhile. I drive a little faster on my way home from work so I can fit in a few more minutes of listening time, and want to revisit my entire cd collection to hear the difference.

[dean_martin]

Congratulations! Sometimes first attempts at sound improvements don't work out. It looks like your upgraditis is in remission...for now.

[Woochifer]

All good questions...You can download a few design options by clicking "project ideas" on the woofer page at the PE website, or you can just copy the Titanic MKIII cabinet dimensions and build it yourself. If you're really keen, you could hit the PE forum and ask for some advice...there's lots of people who ask this same question for other woofers, and people would be glad to help you choose dimensions.

I would think for your room the 12" would be more than enough, but for the price, fun factor, and extra performance, you could go all the way with the 15"...the difference is about 10 dB max volume output, double the power, and the ability to go below 20 Hz vs. about 22 Hz in room. The 15" goes below 20 Hz and is tight and accurate. Check the DIY forums, I think Sealed did a review on the 15" a few months back here.

Now you've piqued my interest in the PE Titanic kits. I'm curious more about how they would compare to the Adire Rava. When I started shopping around for a sealed sub in the under-$500 price range three years ago, my options at that time were pretty much limited to the Rava and the PE kit. I went with the Rava because it cost less than the 12" Titanic kit, and it came fully assembled with a veneered oak cabinet. Now, the number of sealed options in the under-$600 price range has increased a lot with models introduced in the last two years from B&W, Atlantic, Acoustic Visions, Rocket, and Martin Logan.

I can understand the appeal of the Titanic kit because it allows you to tailor the cabinet and/or port dimensions to whatever performance parameters you're looking for. But, looking at it point by point with the Rava, I'm curious as to the advantage of the Titanic.

Basically, the Titanic has a more powerful 500 watt amp that comes with a one channel parametric EQ, while the Rava uses a higher capacity driver. (Adire's website claims a higher swept volume, longer driver excursion, and higher SPL for the Shiva driver over the Titanic driver)

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/...eFrameText.htm

Basically, the Shiva driver and the plate amp used in the Rava would cost about $300 just for the parts. For the extra $100, the Rava throws in a veneered cabinet and assembly. I know that the plate amp that comes with the Titanic kit costs about $120 more than the amp that's in the Rava, but the cost difference between the Rava and the 12" Titanic kit is about $136.

I guess my question is what more does the Titanic kit offer over the Rava? The Rava is essentially a glorified DIY project culled together from well regarded parts and built to a Q alignment (0.67) that's slightly biased towards longer frequency extension but not too far off from the Butterworth alignment (.707) that is statistically closest to a flat response.

The Parts Express site doesn't say too much about the Titanic kit's tonal characteristics. Since it's a sealed box, I would be curious about its Q alignment. The ACI sealed subs are built to a Q alignment of 0.6, which is extends the frequency range and is commonly regarded as a more "musical" alignment. I also read somewhere that B&W's sealed subs have a Q alignment closer to 0.8, which is surprising because that tends to shorten the frequency extension and create a slight boost in the midbass.

I see a lot of recommendations for the Titanic kits, and I've been curious as to what it offers over the Rava despite a higher price and the need to assemble it.

[jschaudel]

Thanks.

Receiver: yes, I would be willing to purchase a refurbished one on-line as long as the warranty was the same. I was looking at one site (don't remember which) some time ago and the refurbished unit (Denon) had an extremely short warranty. However, I don't know which sites a good and which are not.

[kexodusc]

Wooch, my plane's about to land so I have to make this quick, but real quickly I've noticed the stats in the link you provide seem to refer to much older Titanic MKII driver...the xmax of the new 12" MK III is a whopping 1.87 cm (or 2-way 3.74 cm), much longer than the Shiva driver, and PE claims a max SPL of over 110 dB's vs the Rava's 105 dB's.
The Titanic moves more air, has lower response, more power, and higher SPL...Parametric EQ (is it one channel?) and it comes in ugly black.
What more could you want?
More tomorrow hopefully.

[bargainseeker]

Thanks.

Receiver: yes, I would be willing to purchase a refurbished one on-line as long as the warranty was the same. I was looking at one site (don't remember which) some time ago and the refurbished unit (Denon) had an extremely short warranty. However, I don't know which sites a good and which are not.

Please see this thread in the home theater forum for my response.

[kexodusc]

Wooch, I've also confirmed that the Q alignment of the Titanic MKIII kits is 0.707...you could argue the real impact this produces, alot of subs seem to be going for higher Q's these days, the Q itself is meaningless, though, you have to take the parameters of the driver into consideration. My guess it was just an easy place for Vance Dickason to start.

The 12" driver produces a swept volume at 1.67 L by my calcs, though the Dayton driver measures only the effective radius of the driver, not sure if the Rava specs use the larger radius figure to boost the reported specs or not.

The 12" Dayton is the more efficient driver (not by much), but coupled with the larger amp I think you'd maintain see a bit less distortion at higher SPL...how much real world advantage this translates into is beyond me though, probably not much. It might actually be more of a benefit at lower SPL? I'm not really a sub guy, spend most of my time on crossovers and speaker cabinets.

Alot of would people argue you need the better (bigger) amp to take full advantage of the excursion both of these drivers...though I'm not sure utilizing full excursion capability is always necessary.

I've never heard the Rava personally, though I've heard of it often enough. It could be the better performing sub of the two, or even just a more affordable alternative that captures most of the performance at a better value...I know my parents 12" MKIII kit is noticeably lower, and leaner than my PW-2200 was in my room, but alot cheaper...I have high expectations for the 15" kit (almost double the surface area of the 12" and sweeping over 3 L, here I come)...

Thoughts?

[mjon99]

Kex,
Let us know what you think of the 15" when you finish it.

[Woochifer]

Wooch, I've also confirmed that the Q alignment of the Titanic MKIII kits is 0.707...you could argue the real impact this produces, alot of subs seem to be going for higher Q's these days, the Q itself is meaningless, though, you have to take the parameters of the driver into consideration. My guess it was just an easy place for Vance Dickason to start.

The 12" driver produces a swept volume at 1.67 L by my calcs, though the Dayton driver measures only the effective radius of the driver, not sure if the Rava specs use the larger radius figure to boost the reported specs or not.

The 12" Dayton is the more efficient driver (not by much), but coupled with the larger amp I think you'd maintain see a bit less distortion at higher SPL...how much real world advantage this translates into is beyond me though, probably not much. It might actually be more of a benefit at lower SPL? I'm not really a sub guy, spend most of my time on crossovers and speaker cabinets.

Alot of would people argue you need the better (bigger) amp to take full advantage of the excursion both of these drivers...though I'm not sure utilizing full excursion capability is always necessary.

I've never heard the Rava personally, though I've heard of it often enough. It could be the better performing sub of the two, or even just a more affordable alternative that captures most of the performance at a better value...I know my parents 12" MKIII kit is noticeably lower, and leaner than my PW-2200 was in my room, but alot cheaper...I have high expectations for the 15" kit (almost double the surface area of the 12" and sweeping over 3 L, here I come)...

Thoughts?

Very interesting indeed! Sounds like the MKIII driver's a nice step up over the Shiva, which would then justify its higher price. With the new driver specs, that answers my question about the differences between the two. The driver and amp used in that Titanic kit would alone cost about $440, while the Rava costs $400 fully assembled. I would expect and hope that a $540 kit can outperform the Rava, otherwise what's the point?

The Rava uses that Q=0.67 alignment and they modified the amp with both a rumble filter and an EQ circuit that's supposed to flatten out the response (I believe that the 250 watt amp used by Adire is a pretty generic design that just about every DIY sub supplier sells some version of). Choosing the Rava three years ago was a pretty easy choice, because it was pretty much the only option that matched what I was looking for (at that time, I did not consider DIY an option because I'd never owned a sub before and didn't want my first foray to incur more complications than there already were). Now, with more comparable choices out there, this is a great time for people looking for an affordable sealed sub option.

As far as your kit goes, have fun with it and let us know how it goes! But, just to muck things a bit more for your bout of upgradeitis, you should get a look at Adire's 15" Tumult driver. That thing has a linear excursion of 3.4 cm one way and Adire claims a swept volume of over 5 liters! Acoustic Visions is the only company I'm aware of that currently builds finished subs around the Tumult driver, and they start at $1,500 (the driver itself costs $500). See how long you can resist!

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/...eFrameText.htm

[kexodusc]

Wooch, what are you doing to me? Don't temp me!!!

I've got a 20 X 24 room that is nicely filled with decent bass by the PW-2200 I have now. I believe the Rava and 12" Titanic would be significant improvements, the 15" Titanic is overkill.
That Tumult monstrosity would likely get me in trouble with the neighbors. (that's my way of saying it's about 2.5 times too expensive).

You're right about sub options exploding...even commercial offerings (ported and sealed) have multiplied and become better and cheaper in the last few years. I'm not married to Dayton or the Titanics at all, if anyone's got a sub project idea under $600 or less they think is better I'd love to know. Unfortunately, I don't know how long I can hold out...I've got a buyer for the PW-2200 that'll cover most of the cost of this upgrade...must....resist...

[Woochifer]

Wooch, what are you doing to me? Don't temp me!!!

I've got a 20 X 24 room that is nicely filled with decent bass by the PW-2200 I have now. I believe the Rava and 12" Titanic would be significant improvements, the 15" Titanic is overkill.
That Tumult monstrosity would likely get me in trouble with the neighbors. (that's my way of saying it's about 2.5 times too expensive).

You're right about sub options exploding...even commercial offerings (ported and sealed) have multiplied and become better and cheaper in the last few years. I'm not married to Dayton or the Titanics at all, if anyone's got a sub project idea under $600 or less they think is better I'd love to know. Unfortunately, I don't know how long I can hold out...I've got a buyer for the PW-2200 that'll cover most of the cost of this upgrade...must....resist...

Yeah, what was I thinking! That Tumult is for wusses.

If you REALLY want to be a menace to your neighborhood, get a look at Adire's Parthenon driver. This is the driver that with a simple 24" diaphragm can power down to 20 Hz at reference levels with no box or baffle. No one I'm aware of has built a practical application for this monstrous motor, but it seems geared for serious bragging rights. Adire claims that this motor is powerful enough to achieve a 12" stroke with 450 liters swept volume while driving a 48" diaphragm. So, if you got a $3,000 DIY project coming up, this has got your name all over it!

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/...eFrameText.htm

[Jack]

Kexodusc, Wooch, etc. I'm looking at the Titanic 10" kit and have a question. The ONLY space in my living room for the sub is only 15"x15"x21", hence the 10" and not the 12" enclosure. My question...How will the tight spacing affect the sound of the sub, if at all? It will only be about 6" from the back wall, very close to touching the A/V rack and very close to a 6 inch "quasi" wall on the other side. The front will, of course, face the sitting area. As you can probably tell from my question, I have no experience with sub placement, etc. I searched on this site and could not find the answer, and since you were on the topic, I decided against starting a new thread. Any and all info would be greatly appreciated. BTW, this will be my first attempt atany type of DIY, but the reports about the quality and ease of construction of the Titanic kits has me interested. Thanks in advance for any help you may offer....Jack

[kexodusc]

Wooch is probably far more qualified to give a meaningful response in the area of sub placement. If you're stuck with one suitable position for a sub, I would still argue you can make do and enjoy a sub. You will probably get a boosted response having the sub so close to walls, but other than that, I can't offer you much help on this front without actually measuring the sub in the room. You might not really be able to predict much before you try the sub in your room.

As for the 15"X15"X21"...you can totally do a 12" in that...the 1 cubic ft cabinets used in the 10 Titanic kit are suited for 12" woofers as well and can be purchases separately with no pre-routered holes...take a look at the "sealed subwoofer" recommendation for an alternative approach to the Titanic kits...it uses the 14"X14"X14" cabinet in a sealed box...I don't know the parameters exactly, but I have little doubt you'd get usuable bass into the high 20's...using the Parametric eq would probably further enhance that...there's a lot of guys on the PE forums that have reported excellent results in this compact design, and apparently they're especially good for music applications. You'll need a plunge router and jig to cut out a 12" hole for the driver, and probably a drill if the other holes aren't pre-drilled. Just an option.

[kexodusc]

Yeah, what was I thinking! That Tumult is for wusses.

If you REALLY want to be a menace to your neighborhood, get a look at Adire's Parthenon driver. This is the driver that with a simple 24" diaphragm can power down to 20 Hz at reference levels with no box or baffle. No one I'm aware of has built a practical application for this monstrous motor, but it seems geared for serious bragging rights. Adire claims that this motor is powerful enough to achieve a 12" stroke with 450 liters swept volume while driving a 48" diaphragm. So, if you got a $3,000 DIY project coming up, this has got your name all over it!

http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/...eFrameText.htm

Okay, I'm selling me right kidney on ebay now...any takers...it's in near mint shape, has some minor wear and tear, but is far better condition than my liver. Never driven hard, from a non-smoking home...selling to finance home theater upgrade.

Maybe some day, Wooch, this looks more like something Sir Terrence would use for center channel or something...I have a nut bar Uncle that has a 31" Fostex driver in his subwoofer that cost more than any speakers I've ever owned. Just when I get feeling good about my system, I pay him a visit and get served a slice of humble pie.

There must be a point where a subwoofer becomes overkill in a given room...I don't know where that is, but I'm pretty I'll be close enough.

[46minaudio]

Kex and wooch,These drivers are based on adires xbl2 technolgy..The 15 does not have as much xmass as the 15 tumalt ,but its a $170 less expensive..
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/Avalanche%2018.htm
Here are some graphs for the sealed 18...
http://www.ascendantaudio.com/Avalan...ed%20graph.htm
Wooch if you ever want to try DYI, give me a call I will build you a box with driver cutout for the cost of the MDF and shipping...(yea I love building this stuff).

[kexodusc]

46minaudio: mmm...yummy, $300 for the driver, this is a bit more reasonable...Any recommendations on a good plate amp to go with it? I think the 1000 watt bad boy at PE is still a good buy. They seem to recommend the standard 0.707 Q alignment, but a small 2.2 cubic ft. With a 15.5" diameter that's kind of an odd shaped box. Not really that big, though...all right, you've got me interested...

Wooch: Let's do it...46minaudio's given you a pretty good offer...MDF is cheap, and you could probably ship it flat and glue it yourself. Next we'll get you trading the Studio's in....You're going to need a table saw, dado blades, a plunge router, belt sander, orbital sander, a soldering iron, and of course a spectrum analyzer (can't build without testing)...I'd give you my kidney, but I'll need it.

Give in to your feelings, join the Dark Side...

[46minaudio]

46minaudio: mmm...yummy, $300 for the driver, this is a bit more reasonable...Any recommendations on a good plate amp to go with it? I think the 1000 watt bad boy at PE is still a good buy. They seem to recommend the standard 0.707 Q alignment, but a small 2.2 cubic ft. With a 15.5" diameter that's kind of an odd shaped box. Not really that big, though...all right, you've got me interested...

Wooch: Let's do it...46minaudio's given you a pretty good offer...MDF is cheap, and you could probably ship it flat and glue it yourself. Next we'll get you trading the Studio's in....You're going to need a table saw, dado blades, a plunge router, belt sander, orbital sander, a soldering iron, and of course a spectrum analyzer (can't build without testing)...I'd give you my kidney, but I'll need it.

Give in to your feelings, join the Dark Side...

I bought the 500 watt version with a single band PEQ for 198$ while on the deal of the day..You think it will be under powered with the standdard .707Q.This will replace my HSU VTF 2..Also I just finished a sub using a Dayton 8" DVC in a 1.5 cubic ft box tuned to 30 hz and one of the Audio source plate amps MCM had on sale.I used a 1/2 inch round over on all edges then sprayed it with truck bedliner spray..

[kexodusc]

I bought the 500 watt version with a single band PEQ for 198$ while on the deal of the day..You think it will be under powered with the standdard .707Q.This will replace my HSU VTF 2...

Sorry not sure I'm following (been a long week)...which woofer did you mate in what size cabinet to the 500 watt plate amp?

What were your thoughts on the VTF-2? I wasn't all that amazed with mine compared to other offerings, but I like it just fine.

You've definitely got me second guessing my choice of subs now....
I've got a bit of time, still have the 6th and 7th speakers to finish, as well as a new cabinet for my center channel. It's tough with a job that has me on the road 40% of the time...
Great hobby though, I've learned more in the last year about audio in general than my previous 25 put together.

[46minaudio]

Sorry not sure I'm following (been a long week)...which woofer did you mate in what size cabinet to the 500 watt plate amp?

What were your thoughts on the VTF-2? I wasn't all that amazed with mine compared to other offerings, but I like it just fine.

You've definitely got me second guessing my choice of subs now....
I've got a bit of time, still have the 6th and 7th speakers to finish, as well as a new cabinet for my center channel. It's tough with a job that has me on the road 40% of the time...
Great hobby though, I've learned more in the last year about audio in general than my previous 25 put together.

Sorry Kex..I havent mateded the 500 watt amp with any thing yet..I was wondering if the amp would be to small for the Avalanch 18 with .707 alignment..The VTF2 is what it is.For the size IMO it is a outstanding preformer.There are some room peaks that I hope to fix with the single band peq on the pe plate amp...And yep its time to upgrade...I cannot decide between the 15 or the 18..ANY thoughts on either...

[kexodusc]

Sorry Kex..I havent mateded the 500 watt amp with any thing yet..I was wondering if the amp would be to small for the Avalanch 18 with .707 alignment..The VTF2 is what it is.For the size IMO it is a outstanding preformer.There are some room peaks that I hope to fix with the single band peq on the pe plate amp...And yep its time to upgrade...I cannot decide between the 15 or the 18..ANY thoughts on either...

46minaudio, I couldn't find any sensitivity/efficiency specs for these drivers, but the site seems to imply you can get by with 500 watts. Intuitively, I'd be a hesitant to buy a 18" driver and then mate it to a 500 watt amp, but what do I know? I think you can get buy with the 15" and 500 watts, well enough...but I don't really know. How loud do you like your bass? I'm sure 500 watts would be enough for alot of people...but as your demand for earthquake rumbles increases, that 18" woofer is gonna want lots of juice at 25 Hz and below...I'd hate to have a great driver and not enough power to drive it...you know what that leads too...I think I'd rather have more power than not enough.

The 1000 amp might be a bit overkill for the 15" though, as it is with the Titanic kits. I would think if you're careful enough, you can go either way. My PW-2200 only has 400 watts, I don't have it maxed out, and it does ok in my room right now.

But bigger always = better, right?