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  1. #1
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    need to get this off my chest

    Over the past years/month as a moderator and user I have seen many systems, some good, some very good, most bad and I find it harder and harder everyday to commit myself to moderate/write in an audio gallery/forum that is not about high-end but about hifi. Of course hifi should have a place in society, but i look for forums which were meant to be for people to share experiences so the ultimate in music reproduction could be obtained for all who are interested.

    However, during the past couple of months, I have only helped out other people while I was anxiously waiting for some input of equal level, but I noticed a vast increase in entry level systems that should not be thrown around with High End systems. Since there is no ending in these kind of discussions (300$ bookshelv vs. 20K fullrange). I hereby resign as a moderator and member because i simply cant stand it anymore.

    I know i was definetly not always neutral or nice, but a lot depends on each other and this is stressing me endlessly. Members that have nothing better to do than envy people with high price tag systems will bring this forum down. The GOAL should not be to find the biggest deal on the net! The GOAL should be to find the ultimate in music reproduction to ones best ability.

    -Flo

    PS: There are many nice people on this forum, and i am not generalising here!
    Last edited by Florian; 06-18-2005 at 07:35 AM.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  2. #2
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    High end systems are nice, but the people who own them only represent maybe 10% of the buying public..of which .01% of them come here.

    You've got more money invested in just your turntable than lots of people have in their whole systems!

  3. #3
    asdf bjornb17's Avatar
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    that sucks florian. I hope its not because of people like me who are still with their first sound system.
    Last edited by bjornb17; 06-17-2005 at 06:21 PM.

  4. #4
    cam
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    Well, since you are quiting, get lost and don't come back you high end audio snob. Actually, sorry to hear about your situation. Sounds like you have had an inner emotional tug of war for sometime now. Do me just one favour before you go, dean martin has set up a main event topic in the steal cage and everybody has been antissapating a battle between you and rga. Just don't use any racial slurs or profanity and give us some good old brawlin entertainment.

  5. #5
    Forum Regular PAT.P's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    Florian Im sorry you fill this way.Some of us have family ,kids ,mortgage and cant afford a system like you .We use this forum for input and advice .I loved your picks and your system .In future I would like to own some high end gear like yours .I really love this site and if because you fill $$$$ vs the people is a priority thats your choice.Pat.P

  6. #6
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    Sorry to see you leave feeling this way. Not an easy job at the best of times either I would think.

  7. #7
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    i herby quit

    Now Florian i have only been on here a couple of days i only have question for you now i know you have a system that costs at least 50,000us are you the kind of guy who wouldnt consider a great system that costs 5000us as high end even it out performs a system that costs 20,000us system please answer this you like you are very knowlegeble i would like to know this before you quit because if you think like that than you are a snob not an audiophile but moneyphile so can you give me and answer?

  8. #8
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    I can't say that I blame you. If you're not having fun, what's the point? By the way, having been twice a resident of Bavaria and a visitor many times since, I must say it is one of my favorite places on the planet. Viel Gluck und Auf Wiedersehen.

  9. #9
    Forum Regular Peter_Klim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T BOMB25
    Now Florian i have only been on here a couple of days i only have question for you now i know you have a system that costs at least 50,000us are you the kind of guy who wouldnt consider a great system that costs 5000us as high end even it out performs a system that costs 20,000us system please answer this you like you are very knowlegeble i would like to know this before you quit because if you think like that than you are a snob not an audiophile but moneyphile so can you give me and answer?
    And I've been here for years and can tell you that I think I know what you think and if that's what you think then you are correct.

  10. #10
    RGA
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    The thing is Flo of all the people on this forum while we have argued i can relate a little more to you than some other people -- ignoring the equipment for the time being -- I understand what an up hill battle it is to discuss with people who have not "EXPERIENCED" what you have heard the SAME way you experienced it. In other words I get what it is like to hear something that in one's opinion compekltely destrys everything they have ever heard by such a margin that it would be like the World Series Boston Red Sox playing a 5 year old little girls team (and the last place 5 year old little girl's team).

    So you come onto a forum and you want to tell everyone that holy crap I've been listening for 15 years to all this stuff and it's all a pile of crap what you've been told by the press and marketers and here is the "panacea" of music reproduction that actually sounds "right" --- never of course thinking that people will look at you as some sort of liar shill or every other name in the book. So I get your "passion" for your equipment and in fact I'm probably the ONLY person on this entire board who does becuase you and i may be the only people who like our systems to such a degree that we want to tell everyone about it. We may disagree on the "system" itself but it's no different than me saying Schindler's List is the best American film and some other guy arguing for Citizen Kane - The film that gives you the ultimate life changing cathartic experience is the one you're probably going to think is best.

    What I came to realize is that all it's going to lead to is endless arguments. many people will believe that because they can only afford $300.00 on speakers that anyone who spends more wasted their money - or $3000.00 etc. Is it surprising to you?

    There are people who believe that $500.00 turntable set-up is better than the best CD player in the world - that any speaker that is not a horn is crap, that without tubes you lose. There are others who think if you don't spend $50,000 you have nothing worthwhile to listen to.

    There is a problem with using hi-fi and high-end. I have made the mistake several times of using these terms and i fear I learned them from the magazines -- they mean next to nothing. I tried to illustrate thet hi-fi is a technically very well made solid product in engineering terms but often a mecahnical and unengaging presentation that to me isn;t musical. High End I tried to explain as possibly being just as good or better in engineering terms or possibly even worse but sound organic rich and never fatiguing dry and uninvolving.

    Even with that one gets into even bigger trouble because you're perceived as insulting everyone's decisions - ask anyone here about me and Paradigm --- I've attempted to avoid getting into flames with these people - because I've realised that chances are if they love those speakers they just do not hear it the same way I do -- I've had roughly 5 Paradigm owners take me up on going to Soundhounds and listening to the speakers I've suggested all five agree with me 4 have since bought them and the other is exploring several other options because if a no name can do that to the conglomorate maybe other no names can also do it.

    You are not going to convince people you are right no one is all of the time and not everyone is going to like what you propose they should. I don't see this forum as a problem -- if a person has $300.00 to spend then don;t try and get them to spend $50,000.00. You suggest what you think is good for $300.00 -- if you don't think there is anything good at $300.00 don't answer the thread

    I take a tremendous beating on this forum from practically everyone and I have said several times that's it I'm going to get off here -- but the satisfaction of seeing a person who simply auditioned a suggestion i made and know they are way happier now than they were with the usual stuff keeps me here to get blasted called names.

    I have learned largely to word myself slightly differently -- I use Woochifer as a guage in fact about what i've said -- I figure if he is not blasting me -- then I've successfuly worded my post in a way that gets my opinion across without coming across as a snot...Since April I figure for the msot part I'm wording myself a bit better. Unfortunately they closed the last thread so I could not reply to him.

    Good Luck with wherever you go.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular Peter_Klim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The thing is Flo of all the people on this forum while we have argued i can relate a little more to you than some other people -- ignoring the equipment for the time being -- I understand what an up hill battle it is to discuss with people who have not "EXPERIENCED" what you have heard the SAME way you experienced it. In other words I get what it is like to hear something that in one's opinion compekltely destrys everything they have ever heard by such a margin that it would be like the World Series Boston Red Sox playing a 5 year old little girls team (and the last place 5 year old little girl's team).

    So you come onto a forum and you want to tell everyone that holy crap I've been listening for 15 years to all this stuff and it's all a pile of crap what you've been told by the press and marketers and here is the "panacea" of music reproduction that actually sounds "right" --- never of course thinking that people will look at you as some sort of liar shill or every other name in the book. So I get your "passion" for your equipment and in fact I'm probably the ONLY person on this entire board who does becuase you and i may be the only people who like our systems to such a degree that we want to tell everyone about it. We may disagree on the "system" itself but it's no different than me saying Schindler's List is the best American film and some other guy arguing for Citizen Kane - The film that gives you the ultimate life changing cathartic experience is the one you're probably going to think is best.

    What I came to realize is that all it's going to lead to is endless arguments. many people will believe that because they can only afford $300.00 on speakers that anyone who spends more wasted their money - or $3000.00 etc. Is it surprising to you?

    There are people who believe that $500.00 turntable set-up is better than the best CD player in the world - that any speaker that is not a horn is crap, that without tubes you lose. There are others who think if you don't spend $50,000 you have nothing worthwhile to listen to.

    There is a problem with using hi-fi and high-end. I have made the mistake several times of using these terms and i fear I learned them from the magazines -- they mean next to nothing. I tried to illustrate thet hi-fi is a technically very well made solid product in engineering terms but often a mecahnical and unengaging presentation that to me isn;t musical. High End I tried to explain as possibly being just as good or better in engineering terms or possibly even worse but sound organic rich and never fatiguing dry and uninvolving.

    Even with that one gets into even bigger trouble because you're perceived as insulting everyone's decisions - ask anyone here about me and Paradigm --- I've attempted to avoid getting into flames with these people - because I've realised that chances are if they love those speakers they just do not hear it the same way I do -- I've had roughly 5 Paradigm owners take me up on going to Soundhounds and listening to the speakers I've suggested all five agree with me 4 have since bought them and the other is exploring several other options because if a no name can do that to the conglomorate maybe other no names can also do it.

    You are not going to convince people you are right no one is all of the time and not everyone is going to like what you propose they should. I don't see this forum as a problem -- if a person has $300.00 to spend then don;t try and get them to spend $50,000.00. You suggest what you think is good for $300.00 -- if you don't think there is anything good at $300.00 don't answer the thread

    I take a tremendous beating on this forum from practically everyone and I have said several times that's it I'm going to get off here -- but the satisfaction of seeing a person who simply auditioned a suggestion i made and know they are way happier now than they were with the usual stuff keeps me here to get blasted called names.

    I have learned largely to word myself slightly differently -- I use Woochifer as a guage in fact about what i've said -- I figure if he is not blasting me -- then I've successfuly worded my post in a way that gets my opinion across without coming across as a snot...Since April I figure for the msot part I'm wording myself a bit better. Unfortunately they closed the last thread so I could not reply to him.

    Good Luck with wherever you go.
    I never viewed you as a snob...

  12. #12
    fergot... whasa XLR3?
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    Wow, I just got here, but I definately feel your pain.

    My dad always sez, "Everybody's got a monkey on their back". He was a music teacher during my childhood, fwiw.

    I'm a professional soundman since 1977, when I was in my mid 20s. Sometimes it's hard to relate, but when and if I finally can, sometimes it's worth it. And other times it's a long dry spell.

    I don't have endless resources to committ to my personal playback system in my dwelling, nor do I have a space to modify to my liking (I recently lost my house). Does that mean I can't make some pretty impressive noise here? Absolutely not. I'm also a lifelong artist and take great artistic license with my equipment. But I always appreciate seeing where somebody has taken the time, money, and commitment necessary to achive absolute nirvana, and i guess that's why I'm lurking around here now.

    All that being said, do what you gotta do. Sorry you might not be around.

    Gene

  13. #13
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Over the past years/month as a moderator and user I have seen many systems, some good, some very good, most bad and I find it harder and harder everyday to commit myself to moderate/write in an audio gallery/forum that is not about high-end but about hifi. Of course hifi should have a place in society, but i look for forums which were meant to be for people to share experiences so the ultimate in music reproduction could be obtained for all who are interested.
    Hmmm, I never saw the sign on the terms of service that dictated that the AR forums would be all about high end audio only. Shame on us for discussing "hifi" in your rarified presence.

    If you want to look for a different forum and discussion than what gets tossed around on this board, then by all means find your place and go there. I hope you're happier wherever you wind up. These kinds of self-serving "I quit" threads are nothing more than parting shots intended to tell others on a particular board that they're not worthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    However, during the past couple of months, I have only helped out other people while I was anxiously waiting for some input of equal level, but I noticed a vast increase in entry level systems that should not be thrown around with High End systems.
    Input of equal level? You mean, your input is more important, valid, and useful just because you own a "high end" system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    Since there is no ending in these kind of discussions (300$ bookshelv vs. 20K fullrange). I hereby resign as a moderator and member because i simply cant stand it anymore.
    No ending? I've not seen ANY discussions on this board comparing $300 bookshelfs with $20k full range speakers, yet you're telling us that you see "no ending in these kinds of discussions." If you're "resigning" over something as imaginary/rhetorical/fabricated as that, then this quitter thread is even more pointless than the others that I've seen over the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian
    I know i was definetly not always neutral or nice, but a lot depends on each other and this is stressing me endlessly. Members that have nothing better to do than envy people with high price tag systems will bring this forum down. The GOAL should not be to find the biggest deal on the net! The GOAL should be to find the ultimate in music reproduction to ones best ability.
    And other members have nothing better to do than to expect everybody else to either spend the equivalent of a second mortgage on an audio system, or to fawn at their feet and hang on their every word just because of the equipment that they own.

    If this is "stressing [you] endlessly" then you should take a step back and just enjoy the damn system that spent so much effort building and bragging about. Something tells me that more listening and less typing will help your mindset considerably. Good luck.

  14. #14
    cam
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer
    Hmmm, I never saw the sign on the terms of service that dictated that the AR forums would be all about high end audio only. Shame on us for discussing "hifi" in your rarified presence.

    If you want to look for a different forum and discussion than what gets tossed around on this board, then by all means find your place and go there. I hope you're happier wherever you wind up. These kinds of self-serving "I quit" threads are nothing more than parting shots intended to tell others on a particular board that they're not worthy.



    Input of equal level? You mean, your input is more important, valid, and useful just because you own a "high end" system?



    No ending? I've not seen ANY discussions on this board comparing $300 bookshelfs with $20k full range speakers, yet you're telling us that you see "no ending in these kinds of discussions." If you're "resigning" over something as imaginary/rhetorical/fabricated as that, then this quitter thread is even more pointless than the others that I've seen over the years.



    And other members have nothing better to do than to expect everybody else to either spend the equivalent of a second mortgage on an audio system, or to fawn at their feet and hang on their every word just because of the equipment that they own.

    If this is "stressing [you] endlessly" then you should take a step back and just enjoy the damn system that spent so much effort building and bragging about. Something tells me that more listening and less typing will help your mindset considerably. Good luck.
    Well said Wooch. My mind thinks just like yours but I just can't put it to type like you can. A very intelligent reply on your part.

  15. #15
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    Hate to see a fellow hi-ender go. Still much for me to learn, Best of luck to you.





    Main System:
    Prell 6000 preamp w/conditioner
    Fluffernutter amp xtra-crunchy
    Wilson Phillips bi-polar 3-way
    Schnell ! Schnell ! surrounds
    Hunch backs
    Pastrami sub
    Turntable: Layzsuzin w/Gerbilzonassid drive
    Stands: Vintage purple Mel Krates by Kraml

    Cables:
    Speaker: Golden Gate 1 guage $3300/in.(great stuff but bad for imaging. Maybe it's because I could only afford 1/4 inch each?)
    Interconnects: ( Dunno what that is.)



  16. #16
    RGA
    RGA is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by polkymon
    Hate to see a fellow hi-ender go. Still much for me to learn, Best of luck to you.





    Main System:
    Prell 6000 preamp w/conditioner
    Fluffernutter amp xtra-crunchy
    Wilson Phillips bi-polar 3-way
    Schnell ! Schnell ! surrounds
    Hunch backs
    Pastrami sub
    Turntable: Layzsuzin w/Gerbilzonassid drive
    Stands: Vintage purple Mel Krates by Kraml

    Cables:
    Speaker: Golden Gate 1 guage $3300/in.(great stuff but bad for imaging. Maybe it's because I could only afford 1/4 inch each?)
    Interconnects: ( Dunno what that is.)



    All i can say is that you have an awesome system man and i am very very envious

  17. #17
    fergot... whasa XLR3?
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    Oh well, sorry... I been around long enough to tell ya not to let the door knob hit ya where the good lord split ya...

    That time hasn't necessarilly been here, but I been mixin fer Bonnie, Stevie, Lobos, Tierra, Caniballs, TBS, CBS, Marshal Crenshaw, and others ...

    I've also had my hand in extremely high end studios. You are deluding yourself.

    Good luck... Gene
    Last edited by mixadude; 06-17-2005 at 11:40 PM.

  18. #18
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    i hearby quit

    Hey Peter Klim! he didnt answer me so i guess we right.Woochifer very well said,Cam ruthless but honest i like it Mix that was funny let us real audiophiles have good objective discussions.Boy some real suckups on here i wont say any names but you know who you are im a little suprised about someone im still unimpressed ! ! !

  19. #19
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N. Abstentia
    High end systems are nice, but the people who own them only represent maybe 10% of the buying public..of which .01% of them come here.

    You've got more money invested in just your turntable than lots of people have in their whole systems!
    And that is fine, i started with a Onkyo TX-DS555 and some Infinity RS3's. I have no issue with starter systems.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  20. #20
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjornb17
    that sucks florian. I hope its not because of people like me who are still with their first sound system.
    Ofcourse not, i started too. Its a fun time :-)
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  21. #21
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cam
    Well, since you are quiting, get lost and don't come back you high end audio snob. Actually, sorry to hear about your situation. Sounds like you have had an inner emotional tug of war for sometime now. Do me just one favour before you go, dean martin has set up a main event topic in the steal cage and everybody has been antissapating a battle between you and rga. Just don't use any racial slurs or profanity and give us some good old brawlin entertainment.
    High End Audio snob, i wouldnt have to be if people like you understood that a 300$ bookshelf speaker will never even scratch a Infinity Epsilon or Apogee. But no, people like you cant take comments from High End peopl, because you feel insulted and start arguments over money.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  22. #22
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PAT.P
    Florian Im sorry you fill this way.Some of us have family ,kids ,mortgage and cant afford a system like you .We use this forum for input and advice .I loved your picks and your system .In future I would like to own some high end gear like yours .I really love this site and if because you fill $$$$ vs the people is a priority thats your choice.Pat.P
    I dont put $$$$ vs. people. But the people will little money dont accept any tips from the people who have the cash to test out the systems for them. I had over 9 Receivers and can tell ya all about them, but people just dont listen....
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  23. #23
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Duminy
    Sorry to see you leave feeling this way. Not an easy job at the best of times either I would think.
    It is not an job at all, and people like PeterK, Itch etc... dont make it easier.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  24. #24
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T BOMB25
    Now Florian i have only been on here a couple of days i only have question for you now i know you have a system that costs at least 50,000us are you the kind of guy who wouldnt consider a great system that costs 5000us as high end even it out performs a system that costs 20,000us system please answer this you like you are very knowlegeble i would like to know this before you quit because if you think like that than you are a snob not an audiophile but moneyphile so can you give me and answer?
    Well first off a 5000$ system can be High End if done right, but you will never build a system for 5K and then for 20K and beat it. Its not gonna happen. A Nautilus 804 etc.. will never touch a system around a Wilson Watt Puppy. A 5K systemw ill never ever touch a Kharma 3.1 or 3.2...... it just wont happen.

    I dont care about the price tag, i want the ULTIMATE and i will SAVE UP untill i get it.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

  25. #25
    Forum Regular Florian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasmit
    I can't say that I blame you. If you're not having fun, what's the point? By the way, having been twice a resident of Bavaria and a visitor many times since, I must say it is one of my favorite places on the planet. Viel Gluck und Auf Wiedersehen.
    Right you are. And if your ever close, just stop by and will have some good beers and music.
    Lots of music but not enough time for it all

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