Bi-Amping/Bi-Wiring advice

[aeh10]

7.1 Setup
AVR 2807 (receiver)
Monitor 7v4 (fronts)
CC-370 (center)
ADP 370 (surrounds)
Mini-Monitor (rears)
SVS 20-39 PCi (sub)

Please explain to me the pros and cons of both bi wiring and bi amping and if my setup calls for either or or both. I am familiar with process but wouldnt know how or where to begin the process or other items needed besides what I have already listed. Thanks for the help!

[Mark_IDT]

Bi-wiring does absolutly nothing except make you buy more monster wire. The two sets of wires are coming out of the 1 set of outs they share on the back of your amp so there is no seperation of signal. The ohm load and watts the amp will put out don't change. On the other hand bi-amping can be beneficial but the result is still marginal. IMO the only significant benefit from bi-amping is if the two amps have gain controls and there for you could say turn up the volume on just the woofers alone. Usually bi-amping is done with speakers that have a need for active crossovers (crossovers that aren't built into the speakers but rather a seperate piece of equipment) this way they can send two seperate signals one to the woofers and one to the midrange and tweeter. These two signals are clipped by the active crossovers say sending only 80hz and below to the woofers then 80hz and up to the mid/highs. Most speakers have passive crossovers built in so when you send them a full range signal they process it and send the frequencies where they are needed. With out crossovers your woofers would tweet and your tweeters woof. Your speakers like mine have passive crossovers so they only benefit we can get that is really noticeable is seperate volume control from lows to mid/highs. This is how I have my studio 100s right now sence I don't have a sub. I took a 5ch surround amp and run it 5ch stereo same signal to all 5 channels. Then I have the main outs going to my woofers and the satelite channels going to the mid/highs center isn't used. This way I can go and set the main channels to +10db and thus have more bass presence. I have these towers in a medium sized bedroom so there not in the best place to produce bass where I listen. Also I'm so close to them if the highs were at the same volume they over power the bass and it seems lacking. This is how they will stay until I get a sub then they will go back to full range and I'll eventually get an integrated amp. For your setup however keep them running full range you have no need to bi-amp the mains or all 7 speakers for that matter. You would need at least a 7ch power amp or better two and a 7.1 pre amp then scrap the reciever you have.

[audio amateur]

I'll allow myself to correct/add a few things. Bi/tri/quad amping is one of the most beneficial things you can do to your set-up. At least, in the 2 channel world. Not only does it relieve your amplifiers from having to amplify the entire frequency range, but you won't have the trouble of finding out that you melted your crossover when pushing your speakers, and thus frying the tweeter somewhere along the way. It allows for a much more precise and quality seperation of the frequencies between the different drivers, which themselves will ultimalty feel happier and sound better.
True, bi wiring won't do you a whole lot of good, if you think of the logisitics of it.
I would think quite unecessary for you to bi amp your speakers, considering they are for home theater purpose.

[aeh10]

So i have gathered that bi wiring is something I can pass up on. However what is the recommended second amp used with my AVR 2807. Any recommendations. Again thanks for the help.

[spminor]

I had that same question when I purchased my receiver and speakers, in regards of getting the most out of them and the 2 sets of binding posts. My sales rep told me to biwire the speakers, that way the crossover is doing what it's designed to do. I enjoy what I hear and I'm not complaining. I'm doing this with a Rotel RSX 1056 and a pair of B&W 603 S3. For your second amp use, I would use them as zone 2 speakers in a seperate room or later on buy another pair of fronts just for stereo use.

[Dusty Chalk]

Probably another Denon. Does the 2807 have pre-outs?

[aeh10]

Dusty
here is the pic of the back I think it does.http://usa.denon.com/avr2807_large_b...x_1200x462.jpg

[Mark_IDT]

Ya bi-amping is generally used in pro sound where there running close to or above 120db and pushing the speakers to near xmax. My 100's hit a respectible 104 db in a room much too small for them when being run to their max. If you still feel the need to try this you would need at least another 7 ch power amp or 7 monoblocks. Then like audio amatuer said active crossovers to seperate the lows from the mid/highs so the amps aren't running full range. I don't know how you would run crossovers on reciver you can't place them in between the preamp and amp section sence it's all inside. At best you could run from the preouts on the reciever to crossovers then into a second set of amps which could run just the lows. The reciever would still be fullrange however to the mid/highs. Also you wouldn't have seperation of volume control either even if the power amp/s have gain control they will only play as loud as the reciever is playing. I've never seen a reciever that had seperate volume control to the preouts. The real way to bi-amp speakers is with all seperates, pre-amp to crossovers to two sets of amps a very costly endeavor.

[Mark_IDT]

ya theres a pre out section there towards the left side. Though it looks as if you could bi-amp the mains if you can run both A and B main outs simotaneusly. Though it won't be any different sounding no seperation of signal or volume control.

[aeh10]

Mark I must say this is a relatively new endeavor for me and I am just gonna let my system ride out I really got this receiver for 1080p passthrough, and I really dont feel like shelling out anymore money than I have to. For my ears it sounds great, picture upscaling is awesome and imaging from my speakers is awesome I am just gonna sit tight a little bit and if I feel the need for both processes to just see the difference then I will.

[Dusty Chalk]

Yeah, if you like the sound, don't biamp. We're definitely getting into the point of diminishing returns.

[Mark_IDT]

Trust me I know exactly what you're going through. You got these 2 sets of binding posts on each speaker and just cause their there you want to use them. I went through it as well and the response I kept getting was it's not worth it. I actually went and got a 2 ch power amp with gain thinking I could use it on just the mains woofers to have louder bass. When I hooked it up I was quite dissapointed to find that it wouldn't play louder than the reciver even though it had gain. Only after I sold my center and satelites and went 2ch that I figured out that I could use my reciever as a 4ch stereo amp. If you want to play around with bi-amping and get a taste of it take 2 of your satelite channels and hook them up to the woofer posts on your fronts. Then go into the reciever and turn thoese 2 channels up and leave the rest alone. Then listen to some music on 7ch stereo and see hows its different. Though with having a sub I doubt you'll notice it. The reason I did this was to get more bass volume cause I don't have a sub. When I do get one which should be very soon I'll go back to full range. It's definately a poor mans bi-amping but it's fun to play around with just as it's fun to try different speaker placements other equipment and such.

[BillyB]

7.1 Setup
AVR 2807 (receiver)
Monitor 7v4 (fronts)
CC-370 (center)
ADP 370 (surrounds)
Mini-Monitor (rears)
SVS 20-39 PCi (sub)

Please explain to me the pros and cons of both bi wiring and bi amping and if my setup calls for either or or both. I am familiar with process but wouldnt know how or where to begin the process or other items needed besides what I have already listed. Thanks for the help!

I am not the most knowledgable audiophile here but my speakers are bi-wired and this is the reason.I have an audio dealer whom I trust who I defer to for technical advice like whether or not to bi-wire speakers.His take on this subject is that while it's preferable you do not have to bi-amp to recieve the benefits of bi-wiring.The biggest factor is the individual speaker design.He said that many speakers simply don't sound noticably better when bi-wired and it's mostly relative to the crossover design.He said Audiodyne(who makes a fine speaker) did away with dual connections for bi-wiring as their first-order crossover design didn't significantly benefit from this feature.On the other hand some speakers do sound noticably better when bi-wired making the extra expense worthwhile.I upgraded my speaker wire to Tara cable solid core 4 conductor bi-wire with the hope of improving the sound of my B&W 703's and quite frankly didn't feel it made much difference.That being said I was extremely unhappy with them anyway so it wasn't very realistic to expect much from this changeThe speakers I traded the 703's in for are the Quad 22L's and Quad does recommend bi-wiring them so I'm hoping my original expense will show itself more with the 22L's.It's not a total loss when bi-wire speaker cable is purchased and the bi-wiring sound upgrade isn't significant.At least the conductors can be twisted together doubling the wire gauge thereby lowering the resistence of the speaker cable.Good luck with your decision as I think it's very specific to your speaker choice.

[FLZapped]

I had that same question when I purchased my receiver and speakers, in regards of getting the most out of them and the 2 sets of binding posts. My sales rep told me to biwire the speakers, that way the crossover is doing what it's designed to do.

HAHAAHAHAHHA! You're crossover is going to do what it was designed to regardless. You're sales rep is just blowing smoke up your rear so he can make a sale.

-Bruce

[hermanv]

Here we are, all those speaker manufacturers just can't wait to waste money on a second set of seriously overpriced speaker posts and then on a pair of expensive gold plated straps to short the two sets out. Boy they must all be really, really stupid to have done this for years and years.

Every time I have tried good quality speakers wired direct and wired with bi-wire, the bi-wire setup sounded better to me. Use your ears, most stores will lend you a set. If it does nothing, bring them back.

[FLZapped]

Here we are, all those speaker manufacturers just can't wait to waste money on a second set of seriously overpriced speaker posts and then on a pair of expensive gold plated straps to short the two sets out. Boy they must all be really, really stupid to have done this for years and years.

Don't worry, they're charging you plenty for it. They are only caving into demand, probably created by some writer who wrote some flowery article on how great it was.

-Bruce

[BillyB]

Don't worry, they're charging you plenty for it. They are only caving into demand, probably created by some writer who wrote some flowery article on how great it was.

-Bruce

Considering the money audiophiles are willing to spend on components the investment of bi-wiring is not that dear in the whole scheme of things.While you obviously don't believe in the merits of bi-wiring you can't possibly think that reputable speaker companies who are dedicated to their craft simply put the extra terminals on the back of their speakers just for show. That may be the case with some manufacturers but it certainly isn't a given with every speaker.Some speakers will reward you for the extra money spent on bi-wiring them but of course if you start spending crazy money on the bi-wire cables than like anything else you risk getting into the land of diminishing returns.I will post after my new Quads are connected to my Tara Lab Prism Bi-wire speaker cables and will experiment with 2 or 4 terminal connecting methods.Quad highly recommends bi-wiring their speakers and I'm taking them at their word unless proven otherwise.Speaker companies don't make any extra money on the sale of Bi-wire speaker cables that I'm aware of.

[Woochifer]

Considering the money audiophiles are willing to spend on components the investment of bi-wiring is not that dear in the whole scheme of things.While you obviously don't believe in the merits of bi-wiring you can't possibly think that reputable speaker companies who are dedicated to their craft simply put the extra terminals on the back of their speakers just for show. That may be the case with some manufacturers but it certainly isn't a given with every speaker.Some speakers will reward you for the extra money spent on bi-wiring them but of course if you start spending crazy money on the bi-wire cables than like anything else you risk getting into the land of diminishing returns.I will post after my new Quads are connected to my Tara Lab Prism Bi-wire speaker cables and will experiment with 2 or 4 terminal connecting methods.Quad highly recommends bi-wiring their speakers and I'm taking them at their word unless proven otherwise.Speaker companies don't make any extra money on the sale of Bi-wire speaker cables that I'm aware of.

Speaker companies do put the dual terminals on their products even though in interviews, the designers for some manufacturers will acknowledge that they do so due to demand rather than any findings on their part of any improvements. Klipsch is one example. If a significant cross-section of the audiophile community believes in bi-wiring, then the speaker companies risk losing sales by not going with the dual binding posts. The audio industry is a business, and any good business plan entails making decisions based on satisfying demand for the intended market. As far as I'm aware of, Dunlavy, McIntosh, and Dynaudio have also discounted the importance of biwiring. I don't recall if any of them went to dual binding posts in order to appease potential buyers. Dunlavy and McIntosh reps used to pretend to switch out the speaker cables during demo sessions, and let listeners fawn all over themselves over how much of an "improvement" they heard before informing them that in fact nothing changed between listenings.

[BillyB]

Speaker companies do put the dual terminals on their products even though in interviews, the designers for some manufacturers will acknowledge that they do so due to demand rather than any findings on their part of any improvements. Klipsch is one example. If a significant cross-section of the audiophile community believes in bi-wiring, then the speaker companies risk losing sales by not going with the dual binding posts. The audio industry is a business, and any good business plan entails making decisions based on satisfying demand for the intended market. As far as I'm aware of, Dunlavy, McIntosh, and Dynaudio have also discounted the importance of biwiring. I don't recall if any of them went to dual binding posts in order to appease potential buyers. Dunlavy and McIntosh reps used to pretend to switch out the speaker cables during demo sessions, and let listeners fawn all over themselves over how much of an "improvement" they heard before informing them that in fact nothing changed between listenings.

I understand your point.I am under the impression that a speakers crossover design is the main factor in whether or not bi-wiring that specific speaker will make a significant sonic improvement.I don't know enough about this subject as to the science behind it to be able to say I know this to be fact.This seems like one of those subjects that is ripe for different opinions but I would think there must be a somewhat definitive answer to this question based on actual science not opinion and would love to hear from someone trained or involved in speaker design and/or building.If I'm wrong then this is just another one of those subjective audiophile subjects that never really ends with anyone proving their opinion based on fact.The ears don't lie so maybe I will learn something when auditioning my own Quads.If I don't hear a difference I will have no problem with that as the Bi-wire wasn't that ridiculously expensive and I won't consider it a major defeat.I would imagine at that point I would just twist the speaker leads together and enjoy the benefits of a heavier gauge wire.I paid a fee to have the amp end of the cable pre-finished with spades but the speaker ends are just stripped back as I use the binding post not the Banana plug style of connection.

[Mark_IDT]

It can be proven that a crossover will do nothing differently when bi-wired. Your making a bridge in the circuit when you connect the two sets with the bridges provided or twist the two sets of wires together at the back of the amp outs. Thoese dual binging post are really for bi-amping.

[FLZapped]

Considering the money audiophiles are willing to spend on components the investment of bi-wiring is not that dear in the whole scheme of things.While you obviously don't believe in the merits of bi-wiring you can't possibly think that reputable speaker companies who are dedicated to their craft simply put the extra terminals on the back of their speakers just for show. That may be the case with some manufacturers but it certainly isn't a given with every speaker.Some speakers will reward you for the extra money spent on bi-wiring them but of course if you start spending crazy money on the bi-wire cables than like anything else you risk getting into the land of diminishing returns.I will post after my new Quads are connected to my Tara Lab Prism Bi-wire speaker cables and will experiment with 2 or 4 terminal connecting methods.Quad highly recommends bi-wiring their speakers and I'm taking them at their word unless proven otherwise.Speaker companies don't make any extra money on the sale of Bi-wire speaker cables that I'm aware of.

Because the marketing department runs things, not engineering.

-Bruce

[FLZapped]

I understand your point.I am under the impression that a speakers crossover design is the main factor in whether or not bi-wiring that specific speaker will make a significant sonic improvement.I don't know enough about this subject as to the science behind it to be able to say I know this to be fact.

It is a crap shoot, there are around 6 variables you have to account for.

This seems like one of those subjects that is ripe for different opinions but I would think there must be a somewhat definitive answer to this question based on actual science not opinion and would love to hear from someone trained or involved in speaker design and/or building.If I'm wrong then this is just another one of those subjective audiophile subjects that never really ends with anyone proving their opinion based on fact.

the facts are out there, if you search for them, but it is indeed one of those hormone driven topics.

The ears don't lie

Well.....maybe you should check these sites out:

http://www.kyushu-id.ac.jp/~ynhome/E...usions2nd.html

http://www.cs.ubc.ca/nest/imager/con...ons/TT/tt.html

http://www.cs.ubc.ca/nest/imager/con...ons/ST/st.html

the last two require JAVA to run.

-Bruce

[BillyB]

I'm not looking to spend any more time debating this subject but I just thought this might be of interest.Upon opening my Quad 22L's the first thing I did was read the owners manual in regard to bi-wiring their speakers.Be patient as I will simply repeat word for word what they said."Most of the audio signal going to the speakers drives the bass units.Where one cable feeds both bass and treble units,this heavy bass current can modulate the high frequencies.Using separate cables for treble and bass units reduces intermodulation effects and improves headroom and clarity.Where feasible, we strongly advocate bi-wiring."They have a separate paragraph for bi-amping in addition to this which simply states that bi-amping will extend the advantages of bi-wiring even further.Anyway I'm not looking to extend this debate but I have heard crazier things than this slant on bi-wiring.You would think there would be a steadier flow of power to the tweeters with bi-wiring even with one amp.Their opinion seems to be based on current flow modulation which could seemingly effect sound.The speakers are gorgeous in Birds-eye Maple and the oh so important sound test is next.

[bigfanga]

I'm interested in hearing your impressions of your new Quads, BB. I've had mine for a week and a half now and I absolutely love them.

[FLZapped]

"Most of the audio signal going to the speakers drives the bass units.Where one cable feeds both bass and treble units,this heavy bass current can modulate the high frequencies.

Interesting that they forget all this current is being generated by your amplifier, so why wouldn't it suffer from such "modulation," afterall, all the current that flows through your wires also flows through the output stage of your amplifier. So this is simply an untrue statement, besides the fact that the crossover is there to seperate these signal paths to prevent just such an occurance.

Using separate cables for treble and bass units reduces intermodulation effects and improves headroom and clarity..

Intermodulation distortion does not exist in wire. Intermodulation distortion is a product of non-linearities in your amplifier. Same thing with headroom and clarity, wire is passive, to make such improvements it would have to become an active component.

Sorry, but that paragraph was nothing more than marketing-speak.

To properly bi-amp a speaker system, you should be able to ENTIRELY bypass the internal passive crossover as it will get replaced with an active one driving two seperate amplifiers. Leaving the passive crossovers in place greatly diminishes the purpose of bi-amping.

-Bruce