Bi-Amping/Bi-Wiring advice

[aeh10]

7.1 Setup
AVR 2807 (receiver)
Monitor 7v4 (fronts)
CC-370 (center)
ADP 370 (surrounds)
Mini-Monitor (rears)
SVS 20-39 PCi (sub)

Please explain to me the pros and cons of both bi wiring and bi amping and if my setup calls for either or or both. I am familiar with process but wouldnt know how or where to begin the process or other items needed besides what I have already listed. Thanks for the help!

[Mark_IDT]

Bi-wiring does absolutly nothing except make you buy more monster wire. The two sets of wires are coming out of the 1 set of outs they share on the back of your amp so there is no seperation of signal. The ohm load and watts the amp will put out don't change. On the other hand bi-amping can be beneficial but the result is still marginal. IMO the only significant benefit from bi-amping is if the two amps have gain controls and there for you could say turn up the volume on just the woofers alone. Usually bi-amping is done with speakers that have a need for active crossovers (crossovers that aren't built into the speakers but rather a seperate piece of equipment) this way they can send two seperate signals one to the woofers and one to the midrange and tweeter. These two signals are clipped by the active crossovers say sending only 80hz and below to the woofers then 80hz and up to the mid/highs. Most speakers have passive crossovers built in so when you send them a full range signal they process it and send the frequencies where they are needed. With out crossovers your woofers would tweet and your tweeters woof. Your speakers like mine have passive crossovers so they only benefit we can get that is really noticeable is seperate volume control from lows to mid/highs. This is how I have my studio 100s right now sence I don't have a sub. I took a 5ch surround amp and run it 5ch stereo same signal to all 5 channels. Then I have the main outs going to my woofers and the satelite channels going to the mid/highs center isn't used. This way I can go and set the main channels to +10db and thus have more bass presence. I have these towers in a medium sized bedroom so there not in the best place to produce bass where I listen. Also I'm so close to them if the highs were at the same volume they over power the bass and it seems lacking. This is how they will stay until I get a sub then they will go back to full range and I'll eventually get an integrated amp. For your setup however keep them running full range you have no need to bi-amp the mains or all 7 speakers for that matter. You would need at least a 7ch power amp or better two and a 7.1 pre amp then scrap the reciever you have.

[chaos24]

Bi-wiring does absolutly nothing except make you buy more monster wire. The two sets of wires are coming out of the 1 set of outs they share on the back of your amp so there is no seperation of signal. The ohm load and watts the amp will put out don't change. On the other hand bi-amping can be beneficial but the result is still marginal. IMO the only significant benefit from bi-amping is if the two amps have gain controls and there for you could say turn up the volume on just the woofers alone. Usually bi-amping is done with speakers that have a need for active crossovers (crossovers that aren't built into the speakers but rather a seperate piece of equipment) this way they can send two seperate signals one to the woofers and one to the midrange and tweeter. These two signals are clipped by the active crossovers say sending only 80hz and below to the woofers then 80hz and up to the mid/highs. Most speakers have passive crossovers built in so when you send them a full range signal they process it and send the frequencies where they are needed. With out crossovers your woofers would tweet and your tweeters woof. Your speakers like mine have passive crossovers so they only benefit we can get that is really noticeable is seperate volume control from lows to mid/highs. This is how I have my studio 100s right now sence I don't have a sub. I took a 5ch surround amp and run it 5ch stereo same signal to all 5 channels. Then I have the main outs going to my woofers and the satelite channels going to the mid/highs center isn't used. This way I can go and set the main channels to +10db and thus have more bass presence. I have these towers in a medium sized bedroom so there not in the best place to produce bass where I listen. Also I'm so close to them if the highs were at the same volume they over power the bass and it seems lacking. This is how they will stay until I get a sub then they will go back to full range and I'll eventually get an integrated amp. For your setup however keep them running full range you have no need to bi-amp the mains or all 7 speakers for that matter. You would need at least a 7ch power amp or better two and a 7.1 pre amp then scrap the reciever you have.

i disagree on the bi-wire part....When you bi-wire you seperate the signal from the highs and lows, you seperate the signal over one cable.....the woofers take up most of an amps power....so to seperate the signal, you dont have as much interference going through 1 cable.....you seperate the signal into 2 paths....highs and lows...everybody knows woofers and bass drain amps way before the mids and highs do, so why wouldn't it make sense to seperate the signal and route the path of the signal where it should be.....bi-amping is absolutly a better route to go(as i did) but sometimes the funds are not readily up front to invest in , let alone 1 amp , but 2.....but imo bi-wiring does have its benefits

[audio amateur]

I'll allow myself to correct/add a few things. Bi/tri/quad amping is one of the most beneficial things you can do to your set-up. At least, in the 2 channel world. Not only does it relieve your amplifiers from having to amplify the entire frequency range, but you won't have the trouble of finding out that you melted your crossover when pushing your speakers, and thus frying the tweeter somewhere along the way. It allows for a much more precise and quality seperation of the frequencies between the different drivers, which themselves will ultimalty feel happier and sound better.
True, bi wiring won't do you a whole lot of good, if you think of the logisitics of it.
I would think quite unecessary for you to bi amp your speakers, considering they are for home theater purpose.

[aeh10]

So i have gathered that bi wiring is something I can pass up on. However what is the recommended second amp used with my AVR 2807. Any recommendations. Again thanks for the help.

[spminor]

I had that same question when I purchased my receiver and speakers, in regards of getting the most out of them and the 2 sets of binding posts. My sales rep told me to biwire the speakers, that way the crossover is doing what it's designed to do. I enjoy what I hear and I'm not complaining. I'm doing this with a Rotel RSX 1056 and a pair of B&W 603 S3. For your second amp use, I would use them as zone 2 speakers in a seperate room or later on buy another pair of fronts just for stereo use.

[FLZapped]

I had that same question when I purchased my receiver and speakers, in regards of getting the most out of them and the 2 sets of binding posts. My sales rep told me to biwire the speakers, that way the crossover is doing what it's designed to do.

HAHAAHAHAHHA! You're crossover is going to do what it was designed to regardless. You're sales rep is just blowing smoke up your rear so he can make a sale.

-Bruce

[hermanv]

Here we are, all those speaker manufacturers just can't wait to waste money on a second set of seriously overpriced speaker posts and then on a pair of expensive gold plated straps to short the two sets out. Boy they must all be really, really stupid to have done this for years and years.

Every time I have tried good quality speakers wired direct and wired with bi-wire, the bi-wire setup sounded better to me. Use your ears, most stores will lend you a set. If it does nothing, bring them back.

[FLZapped]

Here we are, all those speaker manufacturers just can't wait to waste money on a second set of seriously overpriced speaker posts and then on a pair of expensive gold plated straps to short the two sets out. Boy they must all be really, really stupid to have done this for years and years.

Don't worry, they're charging you plenty for it. They are only caving into demand, probably created by some writer who wrote some flowery article on how great it was.

-Bruce

[BillyB]

Don't worry, they're charging you plenty for it. They are only caving into demand, probably created by some writer who wrote some flowery article on how great it was.

-Bruce

Considering the money audiophiles are willing to spend on components the investment of bi-wiring is not that dear in the whole scheme of things.While you obviously don't believe in the merits of bi-wiring you can't possibly think that reputable speaker companies who are dedicated to their craft simply put the extra terminals on the back of their speakers just for show. That may be the case with some manufacturers but it certainly isn't a given with every speaker.Some speakers will reward you for the extra money spent on bi-wiring them but of course if you start spending crazy money on the bi-wire cables than like anything else you risk getting into the land of diminishing returns.I will post after my new Quads are connected to my Tara Lab Prism Bi-wire speaker cables and will experiment with 2 or 4 terminal connecting methods.Quad highly recommends bi-wiring their speakers and I'm taking them at their word unless proven otherwise.Speaker companies don't make any extra money on the sale of Bi-wire speaker cables that I'm aware of.

[Dusty Chalk]

Probably another Denon. Does the 2807 have pre-outs?

[aeh10]

Dusty
here is the pic of the back I think it does.http://usa.denon.com/avr2807_large_b...x_1200x462.jpg

[Mark_IDT]

ya theres a pre out section there towards the left side. Though it looks as if you could bi-amp the mains if you can run both A and B main outs simotaneusly. Though it won't be any different sounding no seperation of signal or volume control.

[aeh10]

Mark I must say this is a relatively new endeavor for me and I am just gonna let my system ride out I really got this receiver for 1080p passthrough, and I really dont feel like shelling out anymore money than I have to. For my ears it sounds great, picture upscaling is awesome and imaging from my speakers is awesome I am just gonna sit tight a little bit and if I feel the need for both processes to just see the difference then I will.

[Dusty Chalk]

Yeah, if you like the sound, don't biamp. We're definitely getting into the point of diminishing returns.

[Mark_IDT]

Trust me I know exactly what you're going through. You got these 2 sets of binding posts on each speaker and just cause their there you want to use them. I went through it as well and the response I kept getting was it's not worth it. I actually went and got a 2 ch power amp with gain thinking I could use it on just the mains woofers to have louder bass. When I hooked it up I was quite dissapointed to find that it wouldn't play louder than the reciver even though it had gain. Only after I sold my center and satelites and went 2ch that I figured out that I could use my reciever as a 4ch stereo amp. If you want to play around with bi-amping and get a taste of it take 2 of your satelite channels and hook them up to the woofer posts on your fronts. Then go into the reciever and turn thoese 2 channels up and leave the rest alone. Then listen to some music on 7ch stereo and see hows its different. Though with having a sub I doubt you'll notice it. The reason I did this was to get more bass volume cause I don't have a sub. When I do get one which should be very soon I'll go back to full range. It's definately a poor mans bi-amping but it's fun to play around with just as it's fun to try different speaker placements other equipment and such.

[Mark_IDT]

Ya bi-amping is generally used in pro sound where there running close to or above 120db and pushing the speakers to near xmax. My 100's hit a respectible 104 db in a room much too small for them when being run to their max. If you still feel the need to try this you would need at least another 7 ch power amp or 7 monoblocks. Then like audio amatuer said active crossovers to seperate the lows from the mid/highs so the amps aren't running full range. I don't know how you would run crossovers on reciver you can't place them in between the preamp and amp section sence it's all inside. At best you could run from the preouts on the reciever to crossovers then into a second set of amps which could run just the lows. The reciever would still be fullrange however to the mid/highs. Also you wouldn't have seperation of volume control either even if the power amp/s have gain control they will only play as loud as the reciever is playing. I've never seen a reciever that had seperate volume control to the preouts. The real way to bi-amp speakers is with all seperates, pre-amp to crossovers to two sets of amps a very costly endeavor.

[BillyB]

7.1 Setup
AVR 2807 (receiver)
Monitor 7v4 (fronts)
CC-370 (center)
ADP 370 (surrounds)
Mini-Monitor (rears)
SVS 20-39 PCi (sub)

Please explain to me the pros and cons of both bi wiring and bi amping and if my setup calls for either or or both. I am familiar with process but wouldnt know how or where to begin the process or other items needed besides what I have already listed. Thanks for the help!

I am not the most knowledgable audiophile here but my speakers are bi-wired and this is the reason.I have an audio dealer whom I trust who I defer to for technical advice like whether or not to bi-wire speakers.His take on this subject is that while it's preferable you do not have to bi-amp to recieve the benefits of bi-wiring.The biggest factor is the individual speaker design.He said that many speakers simply don't sound noticably better when bi-wired and it's mostly relative to the crossover design.He said Audiodyne(who makes a fine speaker) did away with dual connections for bi-wiring as their first-order crossover design didn't significantly benefit from this feature.On the other hand some speakers do sound noticably better when bi-wired making the extra expense worthwhile.I upgraded my speaker wire to Tara cable solid core 4 conductor bi-wire with the hope of improving the sound of my B&W 703's and quite frankly didn't feel it made much difference.That being said I was extremely unhappy with them anyway so it wasn't very realistic to expect much from this changeThe speakers I traded the 703's in for are the Quad 22L's and Quad does recommend bi-wiring them so I'm hoping my original expense will show itself more with the 22L's.It's not a total loss when bi-wire speaker cable is purchased and the bi-wiring sound upgrade isn't significant.At least the conductors can be twisted together doubling the wire gauge thereby lowering the resistence of the speaker cable.Good luck with your decision as I think it's very specific to your speaker choice.

[bigfanga]

I'm interested in hearing your impressions of your new Quads, BB. I've had mine for a week and a half now and I absolutely love them.

[BillyB]

I'm interested in hearing your impressions of your new Quads, BB. I've had mine for a week and a half now and I absolutely love them.

Even though it's been torture I have held off on connecting them as I'm waiting for some high quality banana plugs I ordered on-line to connect the new Quads.I thought it would make for a nice professional looking installation(especially bi-wired) even though I honestly don't know if there are any pros or cons sound wise to this style of connection.They're the locking style which I think makes some sense as to the integrity of the connection.I'm sure based on my experiences here there will be plenty of people who will say this is also a complete waste of money but that's OK.I'm thrilled to hear you love your 22L's so far.I believe these speakers have a significant burn-in time so it should only get better.I'm also torn on the spike set-up for mine.I have hardwood floors and they give you these nice spike feet to protect the floor.I'm just not sure if I like the look of the speaker so far off the floor.They did think of everything as the speaker base also has nice self-stick black pads on them making the spikes unnecessary.I think I may cut about a 1/2" off the spikes to slightly lower the speakers and then retain the ability to make up for any floor uneveness with the threaded spike set-up.These are truly beautiful looking speakers as I love their compact footprint and overall dimensions.What finish did you go with?Continue to enjoy them and I will certainly post after giving them a demo.

[bigfanga]

Mine are birdseye maple also.The finish is absolutely stunning and makes the speakers look much more expensive than they really are.

I got mine used and the prev. owner said that they were just barely broken in so they sounded great right out of the box. I got them because I wanted a silk dome tweeter in my rather live, acoustically speaking, room. After a week of experimentig with positioning and calibration, I have finally gotten them set up right.

This may interest you, I also wanted a nice professional set of bi-wires so I ordered a set of AQ GBC bi-wires from HCM Audio. I don't know if they improve the sound or not, but they do make for a nice set of wires and they were a nice bargain to boot.

Enjoy.

[BillyB]

Mine are birdseye maple also.The finish is absolutely stunning and makes the speakers look much more expensive than they really are.

I got mine used and the prev. owner said that they were just barely broken in so they sounded great right out of the box. I got them because I wanted a silk dome tweeter in my rather live, acoustically speaking, room. After a week of experimentig with positioning and calibration, I have finally gotten them set up right.

This may interest you, I also wanted a nice professional set of bi-wires so I ordered a set of AQ GBC bi-wires from HCM Audio. I don't know if they improve the sound or not, but they do make for a nice set of wires and they were a nice bargain to boot.

Enjoy.

I was refering to the banana plug style connectors only.I already had Tara Lab Prism bi-wire speaker cables but wanted to add the connectors as a nice installation touch.My 22L's are now hooked up and I'm definitely going through growing pains with them as the sound leaves much to be desired in my room.I did purchase them new so I realize burn-in time will be required to make a final decision on whether or not I like them.I'm just curious how far off the back wall you have your speakers placed.I've heard these speakers can be extremely placement sensitive and haven't really moved mine around that much yet.If placement is my problem I may be sunk because I am limited in this dept as my listening room is also the family den and I can't exactly have these speakers out in the middle of the room and expect them to survive my children(also don't know if I have the patience to slide them way into the room for each listening session only to have to put them back where they were for safe keeping.)I have excellent components and will truly be shocked if things don't sweeten up soon as I had very high hopes for these speakers based on a demo at a friends and the rave reviews these speakers were getting especially at their price point.Something doesn't seem quite right and I have an awful feeling it's more critical than the speakers simply burning in can fix.Of course I wan't to be very wrong.

[chaos24]

Bi-wiring does absolutly nothing except make you buy more monster wire. The two sets of wires are coming out of the 1 set of outs they share on the back of your amp so there is no seperation of signal. The ohm load and watts the amp will put out don't change. On the other hand bi-amping can be beneficial but the result is still marginal. IMO the only significant benefit from bi-amping is if the two amps have gain controls and there for you could say turn up the volume on just the woofers alone. Usually bi-amping is done with speakers that have a need for active crossovers (crossovers that aren't built into the speakers but rather a seperate piece of equipment) this way they can send two seperate signals one to the woofers and one to the midrange and tweeter. These two signals are clipped by the active crossovers say sending only 80hz and below to the woofers then 80hz and up to the mid/highs. Most speakers have passive crossovers built in so when you send them a full range signal they process it and send the frequencies where they are needed. With out crossovers your woofers would tweet and your tweeters woof. Your speakers like mine have passive crossovers so they only benefit we can get that is really noticeable is seperate volume control from lows to mid/highs. This is how I have my studio 100s right now sence I don't have a sub. I took a 5ch surround amp and run it 5ch stereo same signal to all 5 channels. Then I have the main outs going to my woofers and the satelite channels going to the mid/highs center isn't used. This way I can go and set the main channels to +10db and thus have more bass presence. I have these towers in a medium sized bedroom so there not in the best place to produce bass where I listen. Also I'm so close to them if the highs were at the same volume they over power the bass and it seems lacking. This is how they will stay until I get a sub then they will go back to full range and I'll eventually get an integrated amp. For your setup however keep them running full range you have no need to bi-amp the mains or all 7 speakers for that matter. You would need at least a 7ch power amp or better two and a 7.1 pre amp then scrap the reciever you have.

i disagree on the bi-wire part....When you bi-wire you seperate the signal from the highs and lows, you seperate the signal over one cable.....the woofers take up most of an amps power....so to seperate the signal, you dont have as much interference going through 1 cable.....you seperate the signal into 2 paths....highs and lows...everybody knows woofers and bass drain amps way before the mids and highs do, so why wouldn't it make sense to seperate the signal and route the path of the signal where it should be.....bi-amping is absolutly a better route to go(as i did) but sometimes the funds are not readily up front to invest in , let alone 1 amp , but 2.....but imo bi-wiring does have its benefits

[FLZapped]

i disagree on the bi-wire part....When you bi-wire you seperate the signal from the highs and lows, you seperate the signal over one cable.....the woofers take up most of an amps power....so to seperate the signal, you dont have as much interference going through 1 cable.....you seperate the signal into 2 paths....highs and lows...everybody knows woofers and bass drain amps way before the mids and highs do, so why wouldn't it make sense to seperate the signal and route the path of the signal where it should be.....

But the amp is STILL doing all the work. Having one, two, or 20 wires, won't change that. The purpose of the crossover is to seperate the signals, the wire is just a carrier. Unless you're using 24 AWG wire or something else as equally silly, you aren't going to run into any problems running out of electrons to carry the signal. There is no "interference" within the wire.

-Bruce
(didn't I just say this?)

[canuckle]

i disagree on the bi-wire part....When you bi-wire you seperate the signal from the highs and lows, you seperate the signal over one cable.....the woofers take up most of an amps power....so to seperate the signal, you dont have as much interference going through 1 cable.....you seperate the signal into 2 paths....highs and lows...everybody knows woofers and bass drain amps way before the mids and highs do, so why wouldn't it make sense to seperate the signal and route the path of the signal where it should be.....bi-amping is absolutly a better route to go(as i did) but sometimes the funds are not readily up front to invest in , let alone 1 amp , but 2.....but imo bi-wiring does have its benefits

That's nice that it works out well for all the little engineers wandering around in your head. The reality of this universe; however, is that bi-wiring doesn't separate anything. You can divide the signal over 50 seperate wires but if they're all still connected at the ends, then their ability to transmit the signal remains the same.