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  1. #1
    Forum Regular audiobill's Avatar
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    Post List 3 Non-derivative Artists....

    Davey's '79 thread got me thinking about the derivative nature of most if not all music, today.

    Can you list 3 musical artists/bands who are the 'least' derivative from, say....., the last five years??

    Here's my 3:

    1. Eminem
    2. Sigur Ros
    3. Kanye West

    Interestingly enough all three are not what I'd consider to be "rock'n'roll" (at least, in the traditional sense of the word)

    Do you have any??

    audiobill

  2. #2
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    How can you say Enemam is not derivative? It's rap, plain and simple. Sure, he's white, but he's still derivative.

    And as much as I love Sigur Ros...can you say, 'shoegazer'?
    Eschew fascism.
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  3. #3
    Forum Regular audiobill's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Chalk
    How can you say Enemam is not derivative? It's rap, plain and simple. Sure, he's white, but he's still derivative.

    And as much as I love Sigur Ros...can you say, 'shoegazer'?
    Ahhhhhhhh, but this is where we differ my friend.
    Eminem is very original in his "raps" and of the non-word vocalizing that he creates; similarly, Sigur Ros is also very original -- creating even their own language -- that no other 'shoegazers' use.

  4. #4
    Stone Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Chalk
    And as much as I love Sigur Ros...can you say, 'shoegazer'?
    I know I haven't listened to as much shoegazer stuff as you, but I really don't see Sigur Ros as shoegazer. When I think of who is the most original/least derivative over the past few years, Sigur Ros is the first artist to come to mind. Fiery Furnaces also come to mind due to the way many of their songs are structured.
    And the world will turn to flowing pink vapor stew.

  5. #5
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    This is me being over-analytical...erm...us being over-analytical

    Well, no, they're not just shoegazer, but they are derivative of shoegazer. Just as enemayhem is derivative of rap. Very derivative. Let's put it this way, I saw Snoop Dogg on Las Vegas last night, and I could have closed my eyes, and it could just as easily have been M&M from SNL two weeks back. Yes, he's clever, but so are some other rap artists (he==both/either one).

    Yeah, you covered yourself a bit in the text of the original post, "...least derivative...", but I wouldn't go so far as to say these qualify as "non-derivative". That was my only point.

    Regarding least-derivative-ness, the first example that comes to mind is Talk Talk's Spirit of Eden -- nothing out at the time (that I heard, anyway) was even remotely like what they put together, yet I could still hear elements of the things from which they derived their unique-sounding opus. A little Miles Davis here, a bit of psychedelia there...but it was assembled in a way that I had never heard before. So it's not like I don't know what you're talking about.

    And yes, I guess Cigar Rose are pretty unique...and yet, one of the things I think they derived from (besides shoegazer and minimalism, and perhaps prog) was late period Talk Talk.

    But I still disagree with Emanem.

    I would also agree with Fiery Furnaces -- they sound pretty unique to my jaded ears.
    Eschew fascism.
    Truth Will Out.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevef22
    you guys are crackheads.
    I remain,
    Peter aka Dusty Chalk

  6. #6
    Toon Robber tentoze's Avatar
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    Although I'm not a raving fan, I'd throw Sigur Ros in there as well. Only other one I can think of that fits the bill for me is Johnny Dowd, so I'm one short of the minimum here.
    ----Never Off Topic, Never Rude-----

  7. #7
    very clever with maracas Davey's Avatar
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    Hmmm, that's kind of a loaded question because it really depends on what the artist does with their influences as I don't think anyone can really be all that non-derivative anymore. I'll pick three albums that came out in the 2000s that strike me as a sound that was very fresh to me and I think also very influential.

    The Dirty Three - Whatever You Love, You Are
    The Notwist - Neon Golden
    Godspeed You Black Emperor! - Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven

    That previous Solex album Low Kick And Hard Bop from 2001 was another that knocked me for a loop as does the Fiery Furnaces new one. Calexico has been putting out some pretty unique sounding albums. Yume Bitsu is pretty unique. Kinski integrates their influences into a fairly unique sound. Lots more come to mind as well. I think it still fairly easy to be unique even today, just don't quite know about the non-derivative part

  8. #8
    AR Jumbo Member chrisnz's Avatar
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    That Kanye West album is really good but...

    my 3

    Four Tet, Prefuse 73, Manitoba, Boards of Canada, Squarepusher, Funkstorung, Autechre, Mouse On Mars, DJ Spooky, Cannibal Ox, Dalek, Bjork, M83, GYBE, Mum, Pole, Jan Jelinek, Vladislav Delay, Papa M, Antipop Consortium, DJ Cheb i Sabbah, Amon Tobin,

  9. #9
    Forum Regular Ex Lion Tamer's Avatar
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    No such thing

    You can't find a band that is not derivative of something. There are artists who mix there influences and present them in a unique way....

    Godspeed Your Black Emperor - This is the first artist that came to mind.

    TV on the Radio - I can't think of anyone else these days who sound the way these guys sound.

    Modest Mouse - of the more mainstream, (now), indie bands,, Modest Mouse sounds the most unique to my ears.

    Haven't heard a lot of those mentioned previously, like Fiery Furnaces, Sigur Ros or Kanye West.
    "I don't know. A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." The Right Honourable JC.

  10. #10
    Forum Regular audiobill's Avatar
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    Wink Meet Me In the Parking Lot..

    Quote Originally Posted by tentoze
    Although I'm not a raving fan, I'd throw Sigur Ros in there as well. Only other one I can think of that fits the bill for me is Johnny Dowd, so I'm one short of the minimum here.
    Of course!! How could I have forgotten JD. One of my favourites. He gives Americana a dark gothic edge.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular audiobill's Avatar
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    Lightbulb New to me....

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisnz
    That Kanye West album is really good but...

    my 3

    Four Tet, Prefuse 73, Manitoba, Boards of Canada, Squarepusher, Funkstorung, Autechre, Mouse On Mars, DJ Spooky, Cannibal Ox, Dalek, Bjork, M83, GYBE, Mum, Pole, Jan Jelinek, Vladislav Delay, Papa M, Antipop Consortium, DJ Cheb i Sabbah, Amon Tobin,

    Thanks chrisnz for introducing me to some names that I need to familiarize myself with: Squarepusher, Funkstorung, Autechre, Cannibal Ox, Dalek, M83, Antipop Consortium, DJ Cheb i Sabbah and Amon Tobinyself.

    Although I see these names mentioned on the board, I must say that I have not listened to much from the bands/artists you list. One of the pleasures, of course, of this RR board is discovering new music.

  12. #12
    Forum Regular audiobill's Avatar
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    Question Some I forgot....

    Quote Originally Posted by Davey
    Hmmm, that's kind of a loaded question because it really depends on what the artist does with their influences as I don't think anyone can really be all that non-derivative anymore. I'll pick three albums that came out in the 2000s that strike me as a sound that was very fresh to me and I think also very influential.

    The Dirty Three - Whatever You Love, You Are
    The Notwist - Neon Golden
    Godspeed You Black Emperor! - Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven

    That previous Solex album Low Kick And Hard Bop from 2001 was another that knocked me for a loop as does the Fiery Furnaces new one. Calexico has been putting out some pretty unique sounding albums. Yume Bitsu is pretty unique. Kinski integrates their influences into a fairly unique sound. Lots more come to mind as well. I think it still fairly easy to be unique even today, just don't quite know about the non-derivative part
    Hey, Davey.

    Solex and The Notwist are two I should revisit. Both are "least derivative", in my book.
    I wonder: Are either issuing any new albums soon??

    audiobill

  13. #13
    Stone Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audiobill
    Hey, Davey.

    Solex and The Notwist are two I should revisit. Both are "least derivative", in my book.
    I wonder: Are either issuing any new albums soon??

    audiobill
    I'm assuming you didn't know Solex released this in September:




    I know both Dusty and I have it, and so far it hasn't impressed me much (I don't like it nearly as well as Low Kick and Hard Bop).
    And the world will turn to flowing pink vapor stew.

  14. #14
    Forum Regular nobody's Avatar
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    You can argue against anyone anybody throws out, because no matter how original a band is, they use instruments, structures or genres that have been used somewhere before, nothing is created in a vacum. And then, you've got to admit none of us hear everything, so sometimes new is just new to me. But, for me, here are three recent folks that I'd place in this catagory...

    Sigur Ros - merging of ambient and electronic sounds with spacey rock elements in a way I hadn't heard before

    Notwist - merging of electronics and rock with sparse yet detailed instrumentation was new to me

    DJ Spooky - melding of avant garde musical theory and hip hop while remaining very listenable in a way I'd never heard before him

    Still, while I like all three of these artists quite a lot, I don't necessarily equate someting new with something good. Oftentimes, bands find little twists on old ideas that make them sound fresh and I am just as likely to like that sort of music making as the larger scale experiments.

  15. #15
    Stone Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Lion Tamer
    Haven't heard . . . Sigur Ros .
    Seriously? Someone will have to remedy that. I think you'd enjoy them.
    And the world will turn to flowing pink vapor stew.

  16. #16
    Forum Regular KEXPMF's Avatar
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    hard to think of something not derivative, but least derivative is easier.

    Hmmm.
    DJ Z-Trip (I'm sure he's not the first to do that but he's the first I heard)

    his recorded stuff is hit and miss, but I do recommend seeing him work live.

    The Notwist is a good choice. I strain to think of anything that sounds like that.
    Sigur Ros, while clever with the language (and great), reminds me of some Radiohead.
    I first heard of Sigur Ros when Radiohead took them on tour. Or maybe Radiohead copied them, what do I know.

    Deride all you want musicians. Keep it coming. As JC said, good music is good music.

  17. #17
    Forum Regular KEXPMF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEXPMF

    Hmmm.
    DJ Z-Trip (I'm sure he's not the first to do that but he's the first I heard)
    oh wait, he probably heard Aerosmith/Run DMC "Walk This Way" and created his whole genre. Oh well. I like what he does and he's damn good at it.

  18. #18
    Close 'n PlayŽ user Troy's Avatar
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    You gotta define derivative because everything you guys have listed (that I've heard) is derivative of SOMETHING. Siggi Ros (seemingly everyone's shoe in) is derivative of 70s spacerock prog and Eno's droneing soundscapes. I hear a lot of classical or soundtrack influence too. Phillip Glass? That "invented language" is Icelandic. Dang, but that band puts me to sleep!

    Eminem isn't derivative? Excuse me, but "Eminem is very original in his "raps" and of the non-word vocalizing that he creates" means that he raps. That's derivative of . . . rap. Rap is an ofshoot derivation of R&B. Am I missing something here?

    As previously stated, EVERYTHING is derivative of what came before it. Sure, you can recombine disparate elements that no one else has done ("Alamaaailman Vasarat" doing heavy metal arrangements on Klezmer instruments, or "Combustable Edison" combining John Barry and Arthur Lyman with trip hop, or "Calexico" combining traditional Tex-Mex sounds with indie rock) but these artists are the very definition of derivative. The sound is derived from different elements.

    Really, a pointless thread.

  19. #19
    Stone Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy
    You gotta define derivative because everything you guys have listed (that I've heard) is derivative of SOMETHING.
    Agreed, but there are degrees of derivativeness (if that's a word), and that's what this thread is about. I mean if I hear a *****s song, I'd swear it actually could be the Ramones, that's how close it is. I don't react the same when I hear other bands, and with some I may hear an influence or it may remind me of some other artist, but it's nowhere near the *****s/Ramones likeness, for instance.



    Quote Originally Posted by Troy
    Siggi Ros (seemingly everyone's shoe in) is derivative of 70s spacerock prog and Eno's droneing soundscapes. I hear a lot of classical or soundtrack influence too. Phillip Glass? That "invented language" is Icelandic. Dang, but that band puts me to sleep!
    Again, I don't disagree that there is some level of derivativeness, but who is less derivative than Sigur Ros? There certainly may be others, but from the past 5 years, Sigur Ros comes to my mind and being one of the least derivative bands I've heard. Oh, and the language is Hopelandish, which is a derivation of Icelandish, but not the same thing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Troy
    Really, a pointless thread.
    That's your opinion, and that's fine, but I think you may have missed the (intended) point of the thread.
    And the world will turn to flowing pink vapor stew.

  20. #20
    Forum Regular Ex Lion Tamer's Avatar
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    No, it's true, I swear

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone
    Seriously? Someone will have to remedy that. I think you'd enjoy them.
    Remedy away, oh great Dr. of Rockology.

    Later.
    "I don't know. A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." The Right Honourable JC.

  21. #21
    Close 'n PlayŽ user Troy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone
    Agreed, but there are degrees of derivativeness (if that's a word), and that's what this thread is about. I mean if I hear a *****s song, I'd swear it actually could be the Ramones, that's how close it is. I don't react the same when I hear other bands, and with some I may hear an influence or it may remind me of some other artist, but it's nowhere near the *****s/Ramones likeness, for instance.
    Wish I knew what band *****s is . . . but I get your point.

    Sure, there are varying degrees of derivitiveness, but everything is derivative. Saying something isn't derivative only shows a lack of knowing what came before.

    My point is, Pink Floyd and Yes in their heyday were SO much more innovative and non-derivative than any Siggi Ros or Gospeed you Black Emperor. From the last 5 years? That's the point. There really IS nothing that is not obviously derivative anymore. Unless you define it as a "recombination of disparate elements never attempted before" as I mentioned previously. But that's derivative by it's very definition.

    Not until we reinvent the WAY to make music will we see innovation like we did in the 60s and 70s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone
    Again, I don't disagree that there is some level of derivativeness, but who is less derivative than Sigur Ros? There certainly may be others, but from the past 5 years, Sigur Ros comes to my mind and being one of the least derivative bands I've heard. Oh, and the language is Hopelandish, which is a derivation of Icelandish, but not the same thing.
    Sure, Magma invented a language for their music in the 70s. Ghastly stuff.

    You were just listening to the "wrong" music in the 70s because everything that Ros does was done back then. It's called prog.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone
    That's your opinion, and that's fine, but I think you may have missed the (intended) point of the thread.
    That Sigur Ros is considered to be so innovative clearly shows just how BADLY popular music has stagnated. That's MY point.

  22. #22
    Indifferentist Slosh's Avatar
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    two words:

    Lightning Bolt
    Originally Posted by Troy: She has that same kind of cleft-pallet, slightly retarded way of singing that so many other people find endearing.


  23. #23
    very clever with maracas Davey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy
    That Sigur Ros is considered to be so innovative clearly shows just how BADLY popular music has stagnated. That's MY point.
    Hehehe, not sure what Sigur Ros has to do with popular music

    Guess maybe you meant to say modern music? In any case, I tend to agree more with you and Dusty and KEXPMF than some of the others who are obviously wrong. Very derivative if you analyze all the elements that make up their sound, but at the same time a very unique combination of elements in that sound. Love em, but they weren't one that came to my mind when I first read the topic line.

  24. #24
    Global Village Idiot mad rhetorik's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Hmm..everything is derivative to some extent or another. The most original bands I can think of though are:

    Meshuggah: On the very outside, Cynic and Athiest come to mind as influences, if only for the jazz/fusion aspects (though they executed it very differently). Allan Holdsworth, in the soloing. And possibly industrial, though more for the general machinelike "vibe" than anything. Other than that they don't have any clear reference points I can think of.

    Pink Floyd: Not sure what was an influence on them. I listen to the Syd Barrett work, and I occasionally think "Beatles," but not even that fits. Maybe Sun Ra. Part of their charm was in that they had such a melting pot of sounds that you couldn't really single out one as their defining element.

    John Zorn/Naked City: Zorn cites every genre under the sun for his creation, but it turned out to be some sort of wild grindcore-jazz thingy with no obvious references. I don't think anything else resembled it until Mike Patton came along. Were The Boredoms around then? I don't know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slosh
    Lightning Bolt
    Yeah, they're definitely original. Really frickin' LOUD drum 'n' bass duo. Haven't really heard anything like 'em. Way too loud to be shoegazer, not really metal, not "noise" or industrial either. Just LOUD.

    As far as Sigur Ros is concerned, their formula is new but they draw on very obvious references. Philip Glass, Eno, My Bloody Valentine, The Cocteau Twins, later Talk Talk etc. I like Sigur Ros, don't get me wrong; they are good and do combine the elements in a neat way, but wholesale "underivative?" Not possible.
    Last edited by mad rhetorik; 11-11-2004 at 12:20 PM.
    "...and then at the end of the letter I like to write <i>'P.S. - this is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated.'</i> "


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  25. #25
    Forum Regular audiobill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone
    I'm assuming you didn't know Solex released this in September:




    I know both Dusty and I have it, and so far it hasn't impressed me much (I don't like it nearly as well as Low Kick and Hard Bop).
    No. I did not know that Solex had released a new one is September. Thanks for the "headzup". I'll take both yours and Dusty's word & pass on it, this time. Mind you,
    "Low Kick and Hard Bop" would be hard to equal.

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