Rap is sold in "Music Stores" mainly because the product is in the form of a Compact Disc. Books, movies, comedy albums, spoken-word books-on-cassette, etc, etc are all sold there too... are all those things "Music" too?

Not just CDs, but cassettes, and vinyl, too, you'll find rap on all of those, and probably soon on formats like DVD-A and/or SACD, if they haven't put out any titles yet. Now: if there are notes, and it can be charted, yes, it is music. Even if it's on a 'comedy' record, (say a comic singing a funny song with musical accompaniment) or if it's a poet reading over music ala Patti Smith on that song on her first album, or on an album that would be classified in a category not essentially considered 'music,' yet sold in a store that regularly sells products that can & must be classified as 'music.' I might agree that an entire record of comedy or poetry should not be classified as 'music' if there is two minutes of chartable sounds and 40 with none, but that does not mean there is not music on the record. 99% of rap occurs with some measure of musical, or at least rhythmic, accompaniment, which means to me that the quotient of 'music' is high enough for it indeed to be classified as 'music,' as opposed to a non-music product that just happens to contain some elements of music.

Rap is not spoken-word, comedy, or a book-on-cassette. It is music. How could anyone call it 'not music' when there is a certain percentage of it that's 'organically' produced, i.e. live band, real instruments, NO sampling? What the hell would you call that? How would that be 'outside of music?' And if it isn't, then where do you draw the line? I mean, a LOT of rap has some or a lot of sampling, and a little in the way of live instruments, played by 'real musicians.' I take it you're aware that quite a few of the older jazz cats still around have been playing on rap records for years now? Guys like Donald Byrd, Ramsey Lewis, Herbie Hancock, Freddie Hubbard, & Ron Carter. And I'm not talking about sampling--they all went in & recorded new tracks for RAP records, a lot for Blue Note, a label that has been putting out these 'outside of music' rap records for some time now. Which means that you're saying that records with guys like these on them are 'not music,' or 'outside of music.' Or...maybe you're saying that it's music if guys like that are on it, but not if they're not? Please clarify. There has to be a line somewhere if you're willing to acknowledge that these records are indeed music. And when you describe that line, there are three artists for which I'd like to know if you consider them music, or 'not music,' or 'outside of music': Gil-Scott Heron, Ken Nordine, & Linton Kwesi Johnson. Are they music? If not, why? If yes, then why them, but not rap?

So...where does it end, & where does it begin? Unless, of course, it's all outside of music. In the case of rap that contains all live playing, if you're going to call that 'not music' or 'outside of music'...I simply cannot find the words to express how wrong-headed this is. If you're willing to admit that these records, containing live playing, have to be considered 'music,' then I'd like to know where the lines are drawn, and why, how, and on what basis. If you use the argument that rap is not music on the basis of the sampling, and the fact that a certain percentage of it contains absolutely no 'organic' creation to speak of, then what of sample-predominant electronic music? For if you are not willing to call rap music, then you must apply that same standard to the world of electronica, regardless of whether or not it's dance music specifically. Casting rap outside of music is certainly significant in terms of the volume of work/art/product/music you're placing there; if you add electronica to that purgatory, then you're talking about a very decent percentage of all 'music'-type projects produced over the past decade. Is that a road you really want to go down?

I'm cool with Rap being called "music" (no skin off my as_)... but I just think it's a hybrid that's something a little different. I think a lot of people are misreading the way I want to "classify" Rap, as a slam on it.

Okay, you say this now, but yesterday I read yr post that said:

I see Rap as "outside" of music

and

Simply put, it's NOT music

and

it ain't really music.

I see a big difference there, don't you? And I direct this to Troy as well, and Barry, and anyone else who's going to try to tell me that rap--a genre I mostly stopped listening to over a decade ago--is 'not music.'