50 Records that changed music

[Dusty Chalk]

Who cares about LR/VU?

Who cares about those who idolized or cloned/emulated/cookie-cuttered some facet of LR/VU?

Without the whole lot of 'em, the world and music would still roll on...of all the included recs (that I am familiar with) loss of the inspiration that may have been provided by VU and those inspired by them are probably the least significant...Most influential?

And more importantly, who cares that you don't? Not I, for sure...

Look, I'm not the biggest LR/VU fan -- don't have any VU albums, only have a few LR. But I guarantee you there is someone that you like that has been influenced by them. Unless you hate rock, in which case, what are you doing in this thread? Please, go threadcrap in the "Audio Lab" or something.

...or forming their psuedo-intellectual positions filtered through any of the writings of self-proclaimed, cooler-than-thou, opinionated miscreants who have held or hold court and opine on the earth-shaking topic of rock/pop...

So close...and yet, so far...

[BradH]

Oh yeah, that reminds me....

Who cares about LR/VU?

Vaclav Havel and several members of Charter 77.

...loss of the inspiration that may have been provided by VU and those inspired by them are probably the least significant

Ever hear of the Velvet Revolution?

Know any other bands who had a revolution named after them?

Case closed.

[bobsticks]

So much for keeping the original list shrouded in mystery...

[Resident Loser]

...what a trip!!! (...To use contemporaneous lingo...)

The following is general in nature, specificity (of some sort) will follow under separate cover:

Doesn't make any diff if it's fuses or muses, there is a segment of the membership that doesn't like it (big time) when someone rattles their respective cages...one good swift kick in the foundation sends the whole house a-shakin' and the believers go into an ad hominem feeding-frenzy...Disrupted the mutual admiration society I see...

jimHJJ(...sorry 'bout that...)

[Resident Loser]

So much for keeping the original list shrouded in mystery...

...ALL things shrouded in myth and mystery tend to be taken as sacrosanct and at face value...it's only when you start to dig a bit deeper and remove the cobwebs of time and reveal certain bits and pieces that the big picture emerges...

As a friend at this site once told me "...Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain..."

jimHJJ(..."Arff!" she said...)

[Resident Loser]

Oh yeah, that reminds me....

Vaclav Havel and several members of Charter 77.

Ever hear of the Velvet Revolution?

Know any other bands who had a revolution named after them?

Case closed.

...missed that newsletter...they're usually the first ones I go to to update my Essential Repetoire...and what do you expect from Czechs? All of them are wild and crazy guys, no?

jimHJJ(...how many bands copped their name from a book title?...)

[Dusty Chalk]

Don't play the underdog card. There's a difference between being in the minority on an opinion and being wrong about a fact.

[bobsticks]

...ALL things shrouded in myth and mystery tend to be taken as sacrosanct and at face value...it's only when you start to dig a bit deeper and remove the cobwebs of time and reveal certain bits and pieces that the big picture emerges...

As a friend at this site once told me "...Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain..."

jimHJJ(..."Arff!" she said...)

uuhh, I was merely refering to the fact that the Top 50 list has made a sudden appearance on my SBC Home Page...

[MindGoneHaywire]

It's alright. So far he's played the righteous indignation card, the age card, the pretentious East Village card, the 'what do you need a producer for anyway' card (Alfred Lion? Teo Macero? Brian Wilson? Rick Rubin? Whodat?)...all of which would be great in a thread about whether or not the album or those it influenced are any good or not.

This thread is about the issue of whether or not it was influential.

It's a good thing I can find the time for pointless debates. It's a bad thing there's someone who presumably had the skill to read a chart who's this utterly clueless about the merits of an issue.

Sorta like someone putting down Dizzy, Parker, Monk, and the bop they spawned, because that was a bunch of 'Chinese' music (Cab Calloway's verdict) played only for their self-involved musicians' sensibilities, and not the audience (Louis Jordan's take).

Funny how some people lack the ability to understand the parameters of the discussion. All that matters is what they have to say about their own individual response to the record.

Which might engage a poster or here in a worthwhile discussion, because on its own, I consider the merits to be debatable.

Its influence is not.

[Resident Loser]

Don't play the underdog card. There's a difference between being in the minority on an opinion and being wrong about a fact.

...as seen by who?

Fact: When the band I was in auditioned at the Cheetah (then on 53rd&Bway) in '68, VU wasn't even a blip on the sonar in most quarters...

Fact: Searching the NYT archives for contemporaneous reviews gives you four citations...The Return Of Andy Warhol...Where Are The "Chelsea Girls" Taking Us...Jiggery-Pokery, Musical Jokery and Display ad 182-No Title...

Seems VU were mere mentions at the time and may have had an ad in the Times...whoop-eee...and thus the legends were born...

Fact: Tom Wilson who signed VU to Verve, also signed Frank Zappa and the Mothers...playing both ends against the middle for product...Both groups took exception to the then current and popular flower-power cr@pola but Zappa reportedly couldn't stand the hedonistic, druggie sub-culture that VU represented...another reason to like FZ...

jimHJJ(...and not LR etc...)

[Resident Loser]

uuhh, I was merely refering to the fact that the Top 50 list has made a sudden appearance on my SBC Home Page...

...doing was taking the opportunity to expand on the value of mystery and mythology...nothing personal...

jimHJJ(...sorry if it came off as such...)

[MindGoneHaywire]

Please explain why Sonic Youth & R.E.M. were not influenced by the V.U. That shouldn't be too difficult for someone so sure of themselves as you seem to be.

[Resident Loser]

It's alright. So far he's played the righteous indignation card, the age card, the pretentious East Village card, the 'what do you need a producer for anyway' card (Alfred Lion? Teo Macero? Brian Wilson? Rick Rubin? Whodat?)...all of which would be great in a thread about whether or not the album or those it influenced are any good or not.

This thread is about the issue of whether or not it was influential.

It's a good thing I can find the time for pointless debates. It's a bad thing there's someone who presumably had the skill to read a chart who's this utterly clueless about the merits of an issue.

Sorta like someone putting down Dizzy, Parker, Monk, and the bop they spawned, because that was a bunch of 'Chinese' music (Cab Calloway's verdict) played only for their self-involved musicians' sensibilities, and not the audience (Louis Jordan's take).

Funny how some people lack the ability to understand the parameters of the discussion. All that matters is what they have to say about their own individual response to the record.

Which might engage a poster or here in a worthwhile discussion, because on its own, I consider the merits to be debatable.

Its influence is not.

...a qualification...I didn't say producers weren't essential...You mentioned someone specific...A producer...as in, none of these folks had a carreer before him...or wouldn't have had one without him...

And what's really funny, speaking of funny...Swish posted "Any thoughts?" and I gave mine...but hold on to your high-tops...my thoughts didn't align precisely with the party-line...further sacrilege revolved around the premise that music, as we know it, would not have been any worse for the absence of VU or ANY of the groups that supposedly cite them as inspiration...OOOOO! What you said!!!

The people and groups I hung with had no interest in VU (our manager, however, was into Sun Ra) nor did the audiences we played to...they wanted music, not drone, not angst, not wallowing in self-debasement, not you-may-touch-my-monkey...Oh sure, the odd drunk would ask for a little bit of "Shout"...

And I'm sorry...if you don't think that some music is just self-indulgent and excessive, well that's your problem...that's the attitude that gives equal value to everything, no matter how trivial or objectionable it is in the wider scope of life...the mindset that gives blue-ribbons to the entire class so that no one feels slighted...a constant lowering of the bar, promulgating mediocrity...

jimHJJ(...and no, I don't wanna' be sedated...)

[MindGoneHaywire]

Devo, Talking Heads, & U2's careers without Eno? Do tell.


>music, as we know it, would not have been any worse for the absence of VU or ANY of the groups that supposedly cite them as inspiration

But then you said you liked Devo, some Talking Heads, some Bowie...which is it?


>the attitude that gives equal value to everything

You'll have to do better if you think I make no judgments. I just don't force my opinions on others as though they were fact. There's a difference. Now you're playing the relativism card. No dice.

I'm not sure why you think that branding some music as self-indulgent & excessive represents some kind of profound observation. Doesn't stop me from liking some of it. Particularly bop, on which I agree with Louis Jordan's take. But, I find virtue in some music that's seemingly made more with regards to the sensibilities of the players, rather than the sensibilties of the audience.

In rock, a different form, self-indulgence works far less of the time. Doesn't mean I have to find it completely worthless just because you say it is. Regardless, you're still ducking the issue of influence, because, oh, I don't know, you're older than someone else, or Bowie just wasn't that good, or the role of a producer just isn't that important, or because you think bohemians are full of sh*t, whatever yr point is this hour.

You said that rec wouldn't be on yr list, but since the list is based on influence, that doesn't make much sense. If you can wow us with the mountain of influences on bands like R.E.M. & Sonic Youth that don't include the V.U., then maybe we'll get somewhere. Until then, you're still blowing the same nonsense. Next?

[Resident Loser]

Please explain why Sonic Youth & R.E.M. were not influenced by the V.U. That shouldn't be too difficult for someone so sure of themselves as you seem to be.

...would one go about doing that? Do they claim to be? Well, peachy keen for them...How could anyone explain why or how they weren't? Do they indulge in overuse of the fuzz-tone? Do their vocals have a range of less than an octave and sound breathy at times? Do most of their tracks seem to have a layer of white noise somewhere, back that-a-way? Are the lyrics vapid, banal and of no particular interest (outside of a small circle of friends, that is)? Well, that nails it, they must have been influenced by the group in question...

jimHJJ(...silly me, how could I have been so blind...)

[MindGoneHaywire]

>they must have been influenced by the group in question...

Wow, I never thought I'd see you actually acknowledge this. But then it's a little strange to think of a guy who was managed by a Sun Ra fan not knowing much about Lenny Bruce, either. Nevertheless...

If you'd care to refer to post #59 in this thread, where you said


>the non-existence of some of their offspring would not affect the musical firmament one single iota.

Either you were wrong about that, or you're wrong now. Which is it?

[Resident Loser]

Devo, Talking Heads, & U2's careers without Eno? Do tell.


>music, as we know it, would not have been any worse for the absence of VU or ANY of the groups that supposedly cite them as inspiration

But then you said you liked Devo, some Talking Heads, some Bowie...which is it?


>the attitude that gives equal value to everything

You'll have to do better if you think I make no judgments. I just don't force my opinions on others as though they were fact. There's a difference. Now you're playing the relativism card. No dice.

I'm not sure why you think that branding some music as self-indulgent & excessive represents some kind of profound observation. Doesn't stop me from liking some of it. Particularly bop, on which I agree with Louis Jordan's take. But, I find virtue in some music that's seemingly made more with regards to the sensibilities of the players, rather than the sensibilties of the audience.

In rock, a different form, self-indulgence works far less of the time. Doesn't mean I have to find it completely worthless just because you say it is. Regardless, you're still ducking the issue of influence, because, oh, I don't know, you're older than someone else, or Bowie just wasn't that good, or the role of a producer just isn't that important, or because you think bohemians are full of sh*t, whatever yr point is this hour.

You said that rec wouldn't be on yr list, but since the list is based on influence, that doesn't make much sense. If you can wow us with the mountain of influences on bands like R.E.M. & Sonic Youth that don't include the V.U., then maybe we'll get somewhere. Until then, you're still blowing the same nonsense. Next?

...Devo...Talking Heads...Didn't Francis Gary Powers get shot down over Russia in one of them U2s...I even like Ian Drury and the Blockheads...and Elvis Costello (or was it Abbott Presley?)...Joe Jackson...The Clash...The Ramones...Zydeco...Native American Flute music...Coltrane...Davis...Parker...Hampton...Anto nio Vivaldi...Mozart...Wagner...Boccerini...Some Copland...not particularly big on Stravinsky, most sounds like bad movie soundtrack although Scherzo a' la Russe has grown on me...Dylan, Cash, old Stones...Glen Milller...Hank Williams...Lyle Lovett...But I digress...

Did Eno produce ALL of their records? And other than being a member of Roxy music, where does he fit in to the equation other than the infamous quote attributed to him? Talk about guilt by association...

Why would you think my comment re: self-indulgence etc. to be profound? Or why I would think it to be? Did I say it was? I simply said it...You can put it any frame of reference you want to, but that's on you...

And I hardly expect anyone to agree with me about anything...I don't need any sort of validation...Someone asks me for my opinion and I give it...pure and simple...if need arises, I have no problem supplying the reasoning that helped me arrive at it...

I never ask anyone to think as I do, just to think...

jimHJJ(...fuses to muses...)

[Resident Loser]

>they must have been influenced by the group in question...

Wow, I never thought I'd see you actually acknowledge this. But then it's a little strange to think of a guy who was managed by a Sun Ra fan not knowing much about Lenny Bruce, either. Nevertheless...

If you'd care to refer to post #59 in this thread, where you said


>the non-existence of some of their offspring would not affect the musical firmament one single iota.

Either you were wrong about that, or you're wrong now. Which is it?

...You do realize how backhanded my remarks were, don't you? And when did I ever say there weren't people who may have been influenced by them? I just called the need for their existence into question...hence I stand by my Post#59...I'd just have more storage area...

jimHJJ(...talk about a Mobius loop...)

[noddin0ff]

Can we do Mile's *****es Brew next. I'm curious to know what it influenced. Carry on.

[Dusty Chalk]

...as seen by who?

(rolls eyes)

You know, a lot of bands weren't influential during their lifetimes, it wasn't until later that people started listening to them that they became influential. L, according to Bowie, one of the reasons the Pixies broke up is because their records didn't sell.

And again -- it's not that you disagree with how good they are, that's not the point. The point is whether or not they were influential. You're deliberately trying to mix the two up, so that when we berate you, you can say, "oh, you're berating me because I disagree with you" -- no, that's not the case, we disagree with each other all the time, most of the time civilly, but we will take you to task when you try to pass off personal opinion as fact. I'm not even going to argue with you about the rest of it, because I think we should just start ignoring you. In fact...yeah, there, done.

I hate the Beatles, but I will not for one second deny that they are influential on most every rock'n'roll band in existence. I will argue that many others that came after are better, but not first -- that would be silly.

Swish, buddy -- please, post another entry to the list, let's get this conversation back on track.

[Resident Loser]

Can we do Mile's *****es Brew next. I'm curious to know what it influenced. Carry on.

...Bill Frisell's looping...But the album itself has certain commonality with musique concrete pioneered in the late 40s by Pierre Schaeffer...

jimHJJ(...but that may be open to debate...)

[Resident Loser]

(rolls eyes)

You know, a lot of bands weren't influential during their lifetimes, it wasn't until later that people started listening to them that they became influential. L, according to Bowie, one of the reasons the Pixies broke up is because their records didn't sell.

And again -- it's not that you disagree with how good they are, that's not the point. The point is whether or not they were influential. You're deliberately trying to mix the two up, so that when we berate you, you can say, "oh, you're berating me because I disagree with you" -- no, that's not the case, we disagree with each other all the time, most of the time civilly, but we will take you to task when you try to pass off personal opinion as fact. I'm not even going to argue with you about the rest of it, because I think we should just start ignoring you. In fact...yeah, there, done.

I hate the Beatles, but I will not for one second deny that they are influential on most every rock'n'roll band in existence. I will argue that many others that came after are better, but not first -- that would be silly.

Swish, buddy -- please, post another entry to the list, let's get this conversation back on track.

...agreed to their influence...I'm not the one who is mixed-up (how droll) nor am I mixing anything...Anyone who mistakes opinion as fact is an idiot (said as he looks askance)

jimHJJ(...what more do you want...an egg in your beer?...)

[BradH]

Didn't Francis Gary Powers get shot down over Russia in one of them U2s.

Actually, the Russkies were aiming at Powers and accidentally hit one of their own Migs. The resulting shockwave took out the fragile U2.

But, obviously, the Soviet Union's influence in the matter was not "significant" because they sucked.

[3-LockBox]

...agreed to their influence...I'm not the one who is mixed-up (how droll) nor am I mixing anything...Anyone who mistakes opinion as fact is an idiot (said as he looks askance)

jimHJJ(...what more do you want...an egg in your beer?...)

I don't think anyone's denying you your right to like or dislike. As for the question of whether that particular VU album was/is influencial, I dunno. I haven't heard it.I haven't heard much of any VU albums and couldn't recall but a couple of songs. And no, I don't plan on picking up a VU album in the future. I don't think I'd like it. I'm not much a fan of that style of music, or its offspring (NY Dolls, Iggy, Roxy Music, et el) I only enjoy Bowie sparingly.

Not much of a chance anyone will change my mind either. I didn't make any comment on whether or not the VU album was influential because it would be pretty obvious that I didn't know what I was talking about. Oh, I coulda ventured out and pretended to know something of the VU, but I think that would look so stupid, especially after admitting I hadn't heard the album. No wait...now I know for sure, that it would look so stupid.

[Resident Loser]

Actually, the Russkies were aiming at Powers and accidentally hit one of their own Migs. The resulting shockwave took out the fragile U2.

But, obviously, the Soviet Union's influence in the matter was not "significant" because they sucked.

...you have corroborating evidence...Since the U-2 flew at 80kft and the Mikoyan MIG-19S had a service ceiling around 58kft, it seems a bit much that a shockwave traveling approx. 4+ mi. would have much impact...Even the MIG-19SU, while it could reach an 80k apex with it's liquid-rocket assist, could not cruise at that height and was more analogous to a ballistic missle. By all accounts their first Tanguska-75 SAM took out their own bird...it was the second that got Powers...

If I leave a 7-10 split and by some miracle I'm able to convert it, the ball actually only hits one pin but it goes on the scoresheet as a spare...soooo, whether it's a direct hit or some sort of ricochet:

...Didn't Francis Gary Powers get shot down over Russia in one of them U2s?

jimHJJ(...consider it artistic license...)