50 Records that changed music

[noddin0ff]

Whoa...I can't believe how many on this board have never heard this album. It’s kind of difficult to make worthy opinions if you’ve never listened to it. You can’t be a student of music until you give this a listen.

Lots of great music came out of ’67. However, I don’t think VU&N broke any great ground for their musicality. I suppose they broke more ground for the lack of accessible musicality. I’m not sure Lou has ever actually ‘sang’ more than a handful of notes in his life, and Nico sounds unsteady at best. Where they broke ground was thematically. They sang about the dark side of drugs and sex, the sleeze and the ick, and the desperation in waiting for the next fix and the disappointment in a wasted life. They sang about destructive living. It wasn’t that peace, love, change the world, and open your mind with MJ and LSD bull that was so popular and successful. The album is gritty, jangly, paranoid, and hypnotic…and still catchy with memorable lyrics and melodies. I remember thinking how corny Sunday Morning seemed on this album and it always bugged me that it led off an otherwise great album… until I finally got that Sunday Morning oozes with musical sarcasm (I was a little slow then). “[I]…Early dawning, Sunday morning. It's just the wasted years so close behind. Watch out, the world’s behind you…[/]” It really sets the tone for an album about running from life and being drawn to, if not trapped, in a lifestyle.

I think the greatness in the album is it’s frank awareness of what a waste the destructive life is, bonded with a musical sensibility that makes that life compelling and attractive. You want to give in and be part of it. The pop hooks pull you in, the jangly avante-garde keeps you uneasy.

I could go on about influences in Punk and all, but it’s pretty easy to read all that.

[shokhead]

Well 67 was when i was doing all the wrong{but fun} stuff and music was part of our everyday life outside of school and all the partys i went to,any of my friends houses i went to and anybodys car i was in, none of us or any of them were into or listened to or went to and VU stuff. But thats just middle America me.

[noddin0ff]

Well, can't say I can speak first hand about 67, I was learning to crawl. ;-) My path to the VU was definately a backward one. I think I started somewhere around Duran Duran and worked my way back.

[bacchanal]

I don't think you can overstate VU's influence on musical culture. It's hard to pinpoint the influence to one album though. I think VU and Nico had more of a social influence while White Light/White Heat had more of a sonic influence. I think there is plenty of evidene that suggests those two albums were a major influence on grunge and alternative rock in the 90's. What would Nirvana have been without the Velvet Underground?

[Swish]

Interesting conversation. Personally, I’m a big fan of the VU album, but dissenting opinions are fine. I can see Swish wanting more than a thumbs up or down with no reason behind it since he was talking about influence, not merely opinion. But, anytime you toss out an album for discussion, you’re gonna get opinion, and I’m fine with that. I’m a big fan of disagreement, really. Keeps things lively. Never did like a “yes man.”

That said, I think the VU album was hugely influential. Lyrically, Reed went into areas where most had pretty much left alone, most obviously drug addiction and other depravities. Did dome others touch on it earlier? Sure, but not to the extent he did. He stretched the boundaries of what was considered appropriate lyrically in rock music, and that has continued to reverberate. He’s more friend than foe to Dylan in this regard.

Also, the whole notion of underground rock was pretty much jump started by the band. Without the Velvet Underground making a series of records that appealed to a narrow section of the public, later to garner acclaim, the impetus for all of the small label, make music for the music, not for the audience thing that is till huge today needs a different group for their heroes.

Sound wise, these guys were all over the map. They made one of the quietest albums of all time with their third, self-titled disc and made one of the grungiest, noisiest albums of all time with White Light/White Heat. They expanded what some came to expect from music. And, they brought the art world and the music world, along with street life, together like no one before, and probably since.

That’s all group level generalities though. So what about the particular album in question? Well, it’s probably their most accessible in many ways, outside Loaded. It made it OK to be avant garde in rock music, its mood and sonic ringing signature have been copied time and again. The songs have been covered hundreds of times. Even the album cover, designed by Warhol, of course, has become a visual icon in American culture. So, yeah, it’s had influence.

More up for debate would be if you like the influence it had. I liked the Punk stuff that came out of its underground wake, fused with the anger of the Stooges and Dolls and more. I like the underground scene that made experimentation more prevalent. I like bands like REM, Jesus and Mary Chain, Bowie, Iggy, Talking Heads and many others who trace their roots directly to the Velvet Underground. And, I like when art and music collide. So yeah, I’m a fan.

If you would have preferred music to stick to its traditions and prefer something more straightforward with common blues riffs and a wailing singer, and think rock music has done nothing but decline since the 70s…well, you probably should hate the influence of this album. But, it’s certainly there.

..the only thing I didn't like was that I didn't write it myself.

Swish

[Swish]

Hey Swish, this begs the question...did the author of the list put the 50 in order of what he (or she) thought was THE most influencial? Or, is this just a list of 50, in no particular order?

I realize that the purpose of the thread isn't even to rate the album but just to generate discussion on it's relevance and influence in music history...I'm just curious about this mystery list.

.."the more influential" in my original post. That being said, this is a list of 50 albums that changed the face of music, and was not specifically meant to be in the order of most important, although the writer did suggest that it could be the "most" influential. Read Nobody's reply and see if you agree with him as I certainly do. Some on the list are dreadful in my opinion, but there are reasons for their being on it.

Swish

[Resident Loser]

.."the more influential" in my original post. That being said, this is a list of 50 albums that change the face of music, and was not specifically meant to be in the order of most important, although the writer did suggest that it could be the "most" influential. Read Nobody's reply and see if you agree with him as I certainly do. Some on the list are dreadful in my opinion, but there are reasons for their being on it.

Swish

...you've given it all away...and I still say, in response to the general statement the article makes re: "without this" after every inclusion...Given what they spawned, missing a few would have been no big deal...

Quite varied...Miles Davis, Sinatra and Black Sabbath on the same list?!?!?!?

jimHJJ(...however, I see I hit a few nails right on the head...).

[Swish]

Quite varied...Miles Davis, Sinatra and Black Sabbath on the same list?!?!?!?

..although it's heavily tilted toward R & R.

Swish

[nobody]

I actually get annoyed when they always list Miles Davis in these type of lists. It either says he was a huge figure in rock, which I personally don't really see...or that he's the only jazz muscian important enough to mention, which is even more ridiculous.

[Swish]

I actually get annoyed when they always list Miles Davis in these type of lists. It either says he was a huge figure in rock, which I personally don't really see...or that he's the only jazz muscian important enough to mention, which is even more ridiculous.

...should be mentioned, especially Dizzy, Coltrane and Montgomery, but I'm sure you can name many others. However, Miles was truly a trend-setter in many ways, especially Kind of Blue and then again with *****es Brew.

Swish

[MasterCylinder]

My path to the VU was definately a backward one. I think I started somewhere around Duran Duran and worked my way back.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, you poor fukker.
Glad you found your way out of there !

[MindGoneHaywire]

N. Abstentia:

>I've never heard that Velvet Underground album, but as far as it changing the face of music I would assume that since it was released in 1967 it was probably overshadowed by a little thing called Sgt. Pepper. Not to mention The Doors debut. Now THAT's something that changed the face of music.

So the VU record didn't? Care to elaborate? I guess it would be tough, since you haven't heard it. Yr assumption is flawed. The influence of other records does not necessarily mean that a record you haven't heard wasn't influential.


>I love it when people say 'please post your thoughts!' then get all huffy when others opinions don't agree with their own.
>If you don't want opinions, don't ask for them. When you do ask for them, be prepared for some that might not share your views.
>Thoughts?

Uh, yeah. My thought is that you might consider that it might seem a bit odd to denigrate the influence of a record you haven't heard, especially if all you can do to express that opinion is to refer to other records. Not having heard it, how could you possibly deny the influence of the VU record?


Resident Loser:

>If he didn't surround himself with transvestites and make nice-nice with Warhol, his 15 minutes of fame would have been long gone...

I'm not much of a Bowie fan, but I fail to see the logic in this statement. There's a guy named Mick Ronson who factors heavily into this equation, and what he had to do with Warhol I don't know. Then there's Iggy. And what did Warhol have to do with the success of Let's Dance? Or the role Bowie played in the career of Stevie Ray Vaughan?


>Re: VU...it doesn't pin my meter...I find it and Reed self-indulgent claptrap...the dressed in black, artsy-fartsy, psuedo-neo-avant-garde, East Village idiots so taken with themselves as to be unbearable...and Nico...geez, fits right in, with the "I'm so deep and dark and full of angst" Puh-leeeze...

I get it. You don't like the record. Perhaps you could explain what that has to do with its influence?


>What was either revolutionary or even evolutionary about the album?

You want a list? Wait a second, there's something interesting here that you said...


>can actually carry a tune

How many bands can you name that were signed by major labels prior to the VU, where the lead singer couldn't carry a tune? One very significant reason why this album was influential was because it was probably the first major label release by a rock band where people were willing to listen through unorthodox vocals because of how they felt about the music...the importance of which overshadowed the ability of the singer. That didn't exist. One-hit novelty wonders & prefab teen idols who couldn't sing weren't singing about anything that anyone actually cared about. People were interested in the content, more so than the form. That people on this forum haven't heard the record, or don't like it, is not relevant to this issue. Someone managed to do something interesting enough to get a label to sign them, in spite of the fact that they couldn't even sing.

Ah, but that's what some would say about Dylan. However, the idea that he cannot sing, or wasn't a good singer, is laughable. Folks who cling to that don't know the difference between the quality of a voice, and singing ability. Lou Reed really couldn't sing. And that just wasn't that important; what mattered was the material.

And the execution. If they wouldn't have been competent players, then it would've simply sounded like the Shaggs. But John Cale brought a sensibility to a rock band that didn't really exist. Brian Wilson would come closest, but the commonalities weren't exactly apparent on 'Fun Fun Fun' and didn't come to the fore until SMiLE. Cale went to school in the same neighborhood where the Rolling Stones held a residency at a club that immediately preceded their rise to fame, and had no idea of this huge buzz that was being generated. Instead, he came to the U.S. to study music...thanks to Aaron Copland. He performed with John Cage and LaMonte Young. Brian Wilson admired Charles Ives, but that was more Van Dyke Parks' bag, and he was a bit more into the Four Freshmen. So this is what Cale brings to the table on this record. 'Venus In Furs,' indeed.

But it doesn't pun yr meter, so I guess it's insignificant, eh? If the influence didn't come through in R.E.M., in Sonic Youth, in Jonathan Richman, in Roxy Music, and more names than are worth mentioning, then you'd be right as rain. On the issue of influence, that is. I thought that was the point of the thread, not a like or dislike of a particular record.


>Was it on a scale of Dylan's "Bringing It All Back Home" which gave folk a big wake-up call?

Ask Tom Wilson that. He produced that album AND the first two VU records. Yeah, Andy Warhol is credited on the first one. But Tom Wilson produced it. Er, we can't ask him, he's dead. But, he'd probably tell you that making that comparison is silly at best. But Mike Bloomfield was doing loud, far-out, electric blues with Paul Butterfield before he was doing it with Dylan, right? Dylan invented what we now know as 'singer-songwriter.' Period. But he didn't invent talking blues ala Sub Homesick Blues. He just refined it. If you'd care to name me an example of a precursor to European Son, the Black Angel's Death Song, Heroin, or I'm Waiting For The Man...I could go on.

If you need to question the influence of the VU by pointing to Dylan, I'd suggest Freewheelin', Times They Are A-Changin', and Another Side, which established the s-s idiom, and was far more influential for that, than BIABH was for 'going electric.' At least so far as I can see. The hordes of blues fanatics who popularized electric blues in the mid- and late-60s were surely influenced by what Dylan was doing, but there was just one thing, that I feel renders his 1965-66 output less 'influential' in that sense:

They could never in a million years come up with a song like 'It Takes A Lot To Laugh, It Takes A Train To Cry.' Refer to the alternate take on 'No Direction Home' for an example of what mastery Dylan had at his disposal which enabled him to take a blues that sounded very similar to much of 'Bringing' and 'Highway' and craft it into the version that made the record.


>Or Brian Wilson's "Pet Sounds" which gave us the foundation for concept albums?

You ever hear of a Frank Sinatra record called In The Wee Small Hours Of The Morning? John Cale was & is a huge Brian Wilson fan. So Pet Sounds is great...how does that make the VU record not influential?

So Pet Sounds was and remains influential. How does that make the VU record not influential?


>Or as suggested, Hendrix' "Are You Experienced" which resulted in a big whoa, man...where did that come from?

Good question. I tire of bringing up Dick Dale in reference to Hendrix, and it has no bearing on Hendrix' creativity or songwriting, but it seems warranted here. Nevertheless...how does this make the VU record not influential?


>Or "The Flying Buritto Brothers" which coalesced folk-rock into country-rock?

Folk-rock? Ever hear of the International Submarine Band? That's what Gram Parsons was doing at least a couple of years prior to the Burritos, but I think you're thinking of the Byrds, the band that...coalesced from folk-rock into country-rock...which had a little something to do with Parsons being in the band.

If you're going to reach to make a point...besides, country-rock pretty much died with Parsons, hence the Eagles, and was a lost art for nearly 20 years until bands like Uncle Tupelo came along. I'd say the influence of the VU record outshines the Burritos, sorry. Unless there was a major country-rock movement from the mid-70s through to the early 90s that I never heard about.


>Or the Dead's "Europe '72" which set the standard for live-performance recordings?

Set what standard? Whose standard? What, then, of Live At Leeds? James Brown Live At The Apollo? Coltrane at the Village Vanguard? Johnny Cash at Folsom, or San Quentin? I'm not sure what you're getting at, here. Actually, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone refer to Europe 72 as some sort of groundbreaking achievement.


>Some claim it has social relevance, like nothing before it did?

How many examples can you name, then, that resulted in musical influence? Maybe you can even come up with one that ranges musically beyond Phil Ochs & Joan Baez.


>Or spoke out loud about things previously whispered?

Well, outside of Bo Diddley, how many examples can you name that could be considered rock? There were bands prior to 1967 singing about scoring drugs on the street? S&M? On a major label? Must be a reason the VU gets the credit for being the outfit that pioneered these as being viable topics for rock music lyrics.


>IMO, it has nothing to offer but shock-value in the pee-pee/doo-doo/ca-ca sense of the term...I'd rather hear a censored version of Harry Nilsson's "You're Breakin' My Heart"...at least it's amusing.

I don't care about this list, and I certainly wouldn't put this album at the top of any 'most influential' list. Lists are generally silly in that they inspire way too much debate that's ultimately useless, though I guess it's fun at the time. But it's not a best list, or a favorite list, or a most *****in' guitar player list, or a who influenced Randy Newman the most list. It's not my favorite VU album, either. I find most of side 2 to be downright unlistenable, quite frankly. But there just wasn't much dissonance in rock music prior to this, now, was there? Maybe that's not socially relevant, but it sure the hell is musically relevant. More than that, it's the first record I can think of where the players are extremely accomplished, yet do things at times that sound downright amateurish. That's a nuance of music that yields very interesting results at times; in more traditional rock outfits, it might be an instance of being 'sloppy.' Here, it's people who were absolutely pro caliber, doing things that could be called unique, eccentric, different, and/or inventive. To some it merely sounds inept. But that's all it would be if in fact the playing ability were not present. Some people like to bend musical rules. The appeal of the record to a particular type of audience shows that...there is in fact an audience for it. And in this case, it happens to be an audience that played a large part in creating a subculture within the rock genre that, uh, influenced, a lot of music.

That's why it's at the top of the list, whether or not it's deserved. But merely disliking a record hardly seems like a sound reason to try to deny its influence.

Lastly, as for shock value, that's what many associated solely with a guy named Lenny Bruce. Would you deny his influence also? Or if he was too intellectual for ya, there's always Howard Stern. Influential. Nothing wrong with disliking the work. Denying the influence? No way.

Thoughts?

[Resident Loser]

...you may wanna' start from scratch and take some notes...my remarks about transvestites and Warhol was in response to Swish's "poser" comments re: Lou Reed not Bowie...And as you may or may not recall, my initial response was not a lamentation over losing a few of the mentioned "bands"...

Second have you seen the list or read the accompanying articles?

Who are the panel of seven numbnuts who compiled said list for the Observer or the Guardian or whatever? What are their credentials?

What metric or criteria did they use in compiling the list? Did they find an old copy of Rolling Stone? Readers polls? Anecdotal accolades? DBTs? Personal opinion? Was it the based on records in question? Of the groups or movements (bowel not excluded) they inspired? Did they like the spawn as opposed to the included albums? Or did they like the albums, but lamented what followed? Did they include stuff they felt would be PC to include? Did they think the black leather jackets were way cool? Do they all smoke the same cigarettes? Did they take the bus to work or their lunches?

Why would their opinions be any more or less reliable or valuable than mine or N.Absentia's or Daisy Duck's for that matter? Posted on the web? Well, so's mine and I could easily find six like-minded individuals who would cite Tiny Tim's "Tiptoe Through The Tulips" as a watershed moment in the rebirth of ukulele art. BFD.

Re: Europe '72...should have specified technical achievement and sound quality...The 'Stones "Got Live If You Want It" and The Who's "Live At Leeds" sound like cr@p in comparison to the wizardry worked by Alembic on the Dead's album.

With regard to Lenny Bruce...I only know what I remember from contemporary news covereage...he used bad languge and OD'd...some intellectual...and IMHO Howard Stern is a waste of space...I can get a group of folks sittin' around for hours at a time and simply by the law of averages, somethin' funny is gonna' happen, BFD times two..

jimHJJ(...ya' know, sorta' like your post...)

[shokhead]

...you may wanna' start from scratch and take some notes...my remarks about transvestites and Warhol was in response to Swish's "poser" comments re: Lou Reed not Bowie...And as you may or may not recall, my initial response was not a lamentation over losing a few of the mentioned "bands"...

Second have you seen the list or read the accompanying articles?

Who are the panel of seven numbnuts who compiled said list for the Observer or the Guardian or whatever? What are their credentials?

What metric or criteria did they use in compiling the list? Did they find an old copy of Rolling Stone? Readers polls? Anecdotal accolades? DBTs? Personal opinion? Was it the based on records in question? Of the groups or movements (bowel not excluded) they inspired? Did they like the spawn as opposed to the included albums? Or did they like the albums, but lamented what followed? Did they include stuff they felt would be PC to include? Did they think the black leather jackets were way cool? Do they all smoke the same cigarettes? Did they take the bus to work or their lunches?

Why would their opinions be any more or less reliable or valuable than mine or N.Absentia's or Daisy Duck's for that matter? Posted on the web? Well, so's mine and I could easily find six like-minded individuals who would cite Tiny Tim's "Tiptoe Through The Tulips" as a watershed moment in the rebirth of ukulele art. BFD.

Re: Europe '72...should have specified technical achievement and sound quality...The 'Stones "Got Live If You Want It" and The Who's "Live At Leeds" sound like cr@p in comparison to the wizardry worked by Alembic on the Dead's album.

With regard to Lenny Bruce...I only know what I remember from contemporary news covereage...he used bad languge and OD'd...some intellectual...and IMHO Howard Stern is a waste of space...I can get a group of folks sittin' around for hours at a time and simply by the law of averages, somethin' funny is gonna' happen, BFD times two..

jimHJJ(...ya' know, sorta' like your post...)

I would rather sit around and watch old JC shows then anything HS has or will do if i want a laugh.

[nobody]

I would rather sit around and watch old JC shows then anything HS has or will do if i want a laugh.

Jesus had a TV show?

bichin'

[Swish]

It's a shame you had so little to say! Ha! Hope all is well in your neck of the woods. I'm headed there Sunday, but only to take in a baseball game (don't ask) and some sales calls on Monday, then on to CT for another day. I will get back to the city in the near future and fully except to sneak out for some fun and frivolity again. Hope Brian shows up again. That was a blast.

Yeah, the point of my post was kind of lost when everyone seemed to want to comment about the quality of the record or the bands it supposedly spawned instead of whether or not the record was a major influence and "changed the face of music". You brought up many good points that I didn't even realize, but then again, you're a walking, talking music historian, so I fully expected that.

I'm not a "list" lover either, but I thought this one was interesting because it wasn't the typical "Best Rock Guitarists", "Best 100 Albums" list that we so often see and that are basically pointless because they're popularity contests. This one forcused on the way they brought significant change to the music world and were not at all "rated" from 1 to 50, although some were considered to be significantly more important than others.. I got a lot of responses, some positive, some not so, but that's better than the stagnant atmosphere that sometimes prevails here, so I'm quite pleased with the results. .

Regards amigo,
Swish

[tentoze]

Jesus had a TV show?

bichin'

Hey, he did some chit in those missing years.

Jesus.... the missing years
It was raining. It was cold
West Bethlehem was no place for a twelve year old
So he packed his bags and he headed out
To find out what the world's about
He went to France. He went to Spain
He found love. He found pain.
He found stores so he started to shop
But he had no money so he got in trouble with a cop
Kids in trouble with the cops
From Israel didn't have no home
So he cut his hair and moved to Rome
It was there he met his Irish bride
And they rented a flat on the lower east side of Rome...
Italy that is
Music publishers, book binders, Bible belters, Money Changers,
Spoon Benders and lots of pretty Italian chicks.

Chorus:
Charley bought some popcorn
Billy bought a car
Someone almost bought the farm
But they didn't go that far
Things shut down at midnight
At least around here they do
Cause we all reside down the block
Inside at ....23 Skidoo.

Wine was flowing so were beers
So Jesus found his missing years
So He went to a dance and said This don't move me
He hiked up his pants and he went to a movie
On his thirteenth birthday he saw Rebel without a Cause
He went straight on home and invented Santa Claus
Who gave him a gift and he responded in kind
He gave the gift of love and went out of his mind
You see him and the wife wasn't getting along
So he took out his guitar and he wrote a song
Called The Dove of Love Fell Off the Perch
But he couldn't get divorced in the Catholic Church
At least not back then anyhow
Jesus was a good guy he didn't need this ****
So he took a pill with a bag of peanuts and
A Coca-Cola and he swallowed it.
He discovered the Beatles
And he recorded with the Stones
Once He even opened up a three-way package
In Southern California for old George Jones

Repeat Chorus:

The years went by like sweet little days
With babies crying pork chops and beaujolais
When he woke up he was seventeen
The world was angry. The world was mean.
Why the man down the street and the kid on the stoop
All agreed that life stank. All the world smelled like poop
Baby poop that is ..the worst kind
So he grew his hair long and thew away his comb
And headed back to Jerusalem to find Mom, Dad and home
But when he got there the cupboard was bare
Except for an old black man with a fishing rod
He said Whatcha gonna be when you grow up?
Jesus said God
Oh my God, what have I gotten myself into?
I'm a human corkscrew and all my wine is blood
They're gonna kill me Mama. They don't like me Bud.
So Jesus went to Heaven and he went there awful quick
All them people killed him and he wasn't even sick
So come and gather around me my contemporary peers
And I'll tell you all the story of
Jesus...The Missing Years

Repeat Chorus:

-John Prine~ The Missing Years

[Stone]

Second have you seen the list or read the accompanying articles?

I have. So?

Who are the panel of seven numbnuts who compiled said list for the Observer or the Guardian or whatever? What are their credentials?

What metric or criteria did they use in compiling the list? Did they find an old copy of Rolling Stone? Readers polls? Anecdotal accolades? DBTs? Personal opinion? Was it the based on records in question? Of the groups or movements (bowel not excluded) they inspired? Did they like the spawn as opposed to the included albums? Or did they like the albums, but lamented what followed? Did they include stuff they felt would be PC to include? Did they think the black leather jackets were way cool? Do they all smoke the same cigarettes? Did they take the bus to work or their lunches?

Why does it matter? This thread is meant to open discussion and debate about that album, not whether whomever made the list has a degree in music history. Personally, I think it's a good list and well thought out. I can't disagree with many of their picks for albums that were influential in rock/pop.

Why would their opinions be any more or less reliable or valuable than mine or N.Absentia's or Daisy Duck's for that matter? Posted on the web? Well, so's mine and I could easily find six like-minded individuals who would cite Tiny Tim's "Tiptoe Through The Tulips" as a watershed moment in the rebirth of ukulele art. BFD.

I don't think they are necessarily more reliable, if you know the history behind the record being discussed, have listened to it, and have listened to enough music to know how it impacted music that came after it. If Daisy Duck has heard VU & Nico and knows about the music that came after it, and the artists who have been influenced by that album, then her opinion is just as valuable as anyone else's, to me at least.

Also, if everyone agreed on everything about this, though, there wouldn't be a use for threads like this. So it's nice to have some differing opinions on these topics. I enjoy reading others' opinions on these things when they're based on some knowledge of the subject.

[Resident Loser]

...here's a clue...now you have one...no charge...

Did you read and understand my post as a response to MGH and within the context of this thread or are you just responding to it as a stand-alone entity?

jimHJJ(...jus' wunnerin'...)

[nobody]

You'd think a guy with a Hitler quote beneath his posts would understand that even people you don't like can have powerful effects in society...even if you don't like those effects.

Or...he could just be a boring pseudo-intellectual trying to show how clever and controversial he can be.

[Resident Loser]

You'd think a guy with a Hitler quote beneath his posts would understand that even people you don't like can have powerful effects in society...even if you don't like those effects.

Or...he could just be a boring pseudo-intellectual trying to show how clever and controversial he can be.

...I didn't like him?

jimHJJ(...now you figure that out...)

[nobody]

For all I know...you could be a goose-stepping neo nazi fuktard...but i was givin' ya the benefit of the doubt.

[Resident Loser]

For all I know...you could be a goose-stepping neo nazi fuktard...but i was givin' ya the benefit of the doubt.

...yes...without any viable argument, we resort ot name-calling and inuendo...how typical of those of your ilk...

FYI, I'm not an intellectual, psuedo or otherwise..."...you don't get time to hang a sign on me..."

Just a great deal of experience with self-absorbed, ego-centric artistes...

jimHJJ(...and their sheep...)

[nobody]

Now who needs a lesson in reading comprehension?

"could be"..."benefit of the doubt"

Its not easy to misinterpret such short statements so wildly...congrats.

[Resident Loser]

Now who needs a lesson in reading comprehension?

"could be"..."benefit of the doubt"

Its not easy to misinterpret such short statements so wildly...congrats.

...is as good as a wink to a blind horse...does the word inference ring a bell?

jimHJJ(...misinterperet? preempt is the word you're groping for...)