The Middle East

[piece-it pete]

Reading the gas thread below (very interesting) got me to thinking - none of those things matter if the ME goes up in flames. You think gas is expensive now?

That led to an examination of our current ME policy. The Iraq "war" was very devisive, but has faded in the public eye:

Iraq has so far been an overwhelming success story. Since most countries and the UN had a fit over this there are far-reaching positive (for the US) repercussions elsewhere, as well.

Iran recently pulled Al Jeezera off the air.

The Sauds have cracked down on homegrown terrorists.

Libya has become a US ally.

Pakistan is a US ally.

Syria is deathly afraid of us, and has "agreed" to pull out of Lebanon, which will almost certainly lead to the downfall of the current Baathist gov't currently in power.

Isreal is pulling out their settlements at US prodding.

Most other ME countries have had to put on at least a show of some sort of vote.

And you can bet that behind the scenes we are getting massive intellegence from most of the other regiemes over there.

Any comments?

Pete

[MomurdA]

Nice post. I actually agreee with 'dubya' on this one, unlike almost all of his other policies thus far, domestic or foreign. The war has had a real effect on those middle east countries, mostly good. Too bad you can see any of that if you watch the news, or read the news. People keep complaining that too many americans are dying over there. Compared to what? To Vietnam, WW2, WW1, Civil War? War in Iraq has way less casualties than any of these conflicts, yet all you hear about is that this is the 'new vietnam' blah blah blah. If i remember my history correctly, this many years into vietnam, there were already at least ten thousand dead American soldiers. Right now we are at 1500 or so, maybe even less as i havent seen or read the news in a few weeks.
Peace.

[kexodusc]

I don't think the majority of people disagreed with the concept of a war with Iraq to topple Hussein and co.
What pissed me off was the corruption, and half-truths that we were told in order to gain enough support to go in...I'm still waiting for evidence of the immediate threat. Don't think we can blame Bush for this, he didn't do the all ground work, and in truth, I feel a bit safer at night knowing he wouldn't hesitate to defend America...

I think we should have tried much harder, much earlier to say that Hussein bahstard had to go...That would have been an easier sell than "real" WMD nobody could find (though I suspect did exist based on gut feeling alone).

Paul, "overwhelming success story" is a bit of a stretch. I'd say it was an inevitable necessity, who's ultimate benefits won't be recognized for quite sometime. Though I completely, 100% agree Iraq is better off now, and should be in the long run.

BTW: What the hell happened to Bin Laden and gang?

[Justlisten2]

Reading the gas thread below (very interesting) got me to thinking - none of those things matter if the ME goes up in flames. You think gas is expensive now?

That led to an examination of our current ME policy. The Iraq "war" was very devisive, but has faded in the public eye:

Iraq has so far been an overwhelming success story. Since most countries and the UN had a fit over this there are far-reaching positive (for the US) repercussions elsewhere, as well.

Iran recently pulled Al Jeezera off the air.

The Sauds have cracked down on homegrown terrorists.

Libya has become a US ally.

Pakistan is a US ally.

Syria is deathly afraid of us, and has "agreed" to pull out of Lebanon, which will almost certainly lead to the downfall of the current Baathist gov't currently in power.

Isreal is pulling out their settlements at US prodding.

Most other ME countries have had to put on at least a show of some sort of vote.

And you can bet that behind the scenes we are getting massive intellegence from most of the other regiemes over there.

Any comments?

Pete

...it's what happens when the bully bends over to tie his shoe and gets kicked in the rear that sends the buzz through the schoolyard.

You really don't expect any of the Middle East to not be our friends now do you? Not while our troops are already over there in full force just looking for reasons to kill more.

The USA is the world power now, these countries will tremble at our might. It's when we try to relax and sit down for a break that they'll sneak up from behind. That's just human nature. If a 10 year old boy hates a 40 year old man, he doesn't punch him in his face when the man has him by the throat in a threatening manner. He'll wait for the man to relax, take a nap, then he'll pop him.

They aren't really our 'Allies', it's just political correctness to help relax and settle the bully down. Try to make the bully feel comfortable enough to sit down and relax.

[JoeE SP9]

Anyone that thinks any of those Islamic countries likes or wants to be friends with the USA needs to have their head examined. Their ultimate goal is a completly Islamic world. They will accept no substitutes.

[karl k]

Reading the gas thread below (very interesting) got me to thinking - none of those things matter if the ME goes up in flames. You think gas is expensive now?

That led to an examination of our current ME policy. The Iraq "war" was very devisive, but has faded in the public eye:

Iraq has so far been an overwhelming success story. Since most countries and the UN had a fit over this there are far-reaching positive (for the US) repercussions elsewhere, as well.

Iran recently pulled Al Jeezera off the air.

The Sauds have cracked down on homegrown terrorists.

Libya has become a US ally.

Pakistan is a US ally.

Syria is deathly afraid of us, and has "agreed" to pull out of Lebanon, which will almost certainly lead to the downfall of the current Baathist gov't currently in power.

Isreal is pulling out their settlements at US prodding.

Most other ME countries have had to put on at least a show of some sort of vote.

And you can bet that behind the scenes we are getting massive intellegence from most of the other regiemes over there.

Any comments?

Pete

The ends do not justify the means. Perhaps yet another lie discovered!

[kexodusc]

I'm no so convinced of our "world superpower" status anymore either. We're having a hard time of it securing a country that didn't (couldn't) fight back...Many of our not so friendly counterparts (N. Korea, China etc) have got as guns just as big as us, and way better technology to at least put up a fight. The grade 6 bully picking on the small kid in grade 2 is one thing, picking on the kid in grade 6 who nobody pays attention to is something else...

And there's no doubt in my mind we don't have the resources to fight a sustained war overseas against a few tougher countries if they ever decided to gang-up on us...Economically crippling us might just be there strategy.

[piece-it pete]

"Nations have no permanent friends - only permanent interests."

Benjamin Disraeli

I am certainly not saying the Arabs are tossing down their weapons and rushing to thank their American masters. Haters will hate, bad guys will plot. What I'm saying is that, from a realpolitik point of view, our policy has been very successful. Usually, winning is the only viable exit strategy.

The bully comparison isn't very accurate, it's really more like a biting ant to a - creature much bigger. Let's not forget the real reason we're over there - we did "relax and sit down for a break" and they did "sneak up from behind" .

And can we act that fighting is not, ever, an option in foreign policy and survive? Our police carry guns and shoot bad guys to protect us. Is that immoral?

Anyway, I'm sure that Iran didn't toss out Al-Jazzera (isn't that amazing?) to directly pacify the US. But it happened because we forced the radicals' hand - and Iran HAD to move to protect themselves (from the radicals).

We are winning SOME "real" friends over there. There has been a pro-American element in urban Iran for many years now, and some of those Iraqis dancing in the streets after voting thanked the US for making it happen. Arab-written articles have started popping up pointing out how voting in the ME is only in western controlled areas.

I WANT the bad guys to be afraid of us. I have no problem with our troops or CIA hunting down and killing Al-Qida operatives, though I doubt they're "just looking for reasons to kill more" (do you realize you're talking about your friends and neighbors?). Watching those Syrian thugs crap themselves is a good thing not just for us but for the entire free (and wanting to be free) world.

The long and short of it is, like the mafia here, we won't be able to stomp them out completely but can do a better or worse job of controlling them. Right now, thanks specifically to those calling the shots: GWB, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld and Rice we're doing pretty well, better than I would have dared hope (or believed, from my first impression of GWB). It took guts to tell the UN and Europe (and homegrown pacifists) to kiss off and it paid off.

Pete

[JoeE SP9]

Sometimes I think we should neutron bomb the entire middle east. That way we would preserve the infrastructure and just get rid of all those pesky muslims. As for GWB I am in great fear of anyone who has his finger on the button and can't pronounce the word nuclear (not nuculer) properly.

[trollgirl]

...however, the real situation is not as rosy. American forces were, in the last few days, thrown back from several towns near the Syrian border, with heavy losses of men and equipment. The Resistance declared a victory. The US has lost some 60 Abrams tanks, the ones we thought were near unstoppable. Some were taken out with (Russian?) plasma weapons - went clean thru BOTH sides of the tank! For those of you who don't know, they are being used, and the US forces have a tank/truck mounted weapon that can melt cars and buses to molten puddles in seconds. It's the new arms race - beamed weapons.

Our dead and wounded are going to escalate. Write them all off. Our use of DU (Depleted Uranium) weapons is spreading uranium oxide dust all over the landscape, the equivalent of a nuclear war, but without the mushrooms. Cancers are way up in that part of the world, and birth defects too. Our soldiers will bring it home with them. It is a crime against humanity, for which our leaders should be put on trial.

It gets worse. Word at the the internet sites where I get a lot of information say that a US attack on Iran is set for June. Next month! Trouble is that Iran has the Russian Sunburn missile which is nuclear-capable, flies at Mach 2+, and under radar at that, and is absolutely unstoppable. If we attack Iran, the US fleet in the Gulf is history, and the whole military operation will unravel, not only in Iran, but also in Iraq and Afganistan.

I love my country, but seeing all the death and destruction:

We have it coming, for waging unprovoked and illegal wars.

We have it coming, for fighting proxy wars for the Zionist Occupation Government.

We have it coming, for letting the New World Order take over our country.

We have it coming, for using DU weapons (the weapon that will keep killing long after Iraq and the United States are forgotten).

What do we have coming? Wait and see...

Laz

[nobody]

Did I actually just read that the Iraq war is an overwhelming success?

Just goes to show how we all live in very different worlds.

Personally, I will never forget that this invasion was an act of agression against a country that posed no immediate threat. The ends do not justify the means for me...and those means are far, far from certain at this point. Each body of any nationality that gets shipped home lifeless or maimed or burried in Iraqi soil is just another reminder of just how wrong this war is.

Funny how the adminstration that pushed this was features precious few who have ever actually ricked their own lives. Instead, they seek glory through the blood of innocents while never having the courage or conviction to risk anything themselves.

[Wireworm5]

Oh Boy a war topic!! Just my two cents.
Saddam is and was a tyrant that needed to be removed. The uncertainty he posed by supplying fuel and resources to terrorist groups whether or not he was actually involved was too risky to be left unchecked. However he should have been dealt with after the 1st gulf war which was brought to a halt due to the threat of Israel entering the conflict after the scud missisle attacks. One has to wonder though that maybe the only way to control Iraqi people is to have a tyrant like Saddam in charge.
Secondly, conventionally speaking there isn't a country on earth that can match the US superior weapons power and technology. Air power is a decisive weapon which you have in spades. The fact that you overan the 3rd largest army in the world at the time of the 1st gulf war in a matter of 2 months should serve as a warning to any other country that is foolish enought to try.
However guorrilla warfare is another matter and this is where the ememies will to fight may be greater than the America's will to fight. And can last for years.

[JoeE SP9]

Oh Boy a war topic!! Just my two cents.
Saddam is and was a tyrant that needed to be removed.

So what? It was his country and he wasn't bothering us.

The uncertainty he posed by supplying fuel and resources to terrorist groups whether or not he was actually involved was too risky to be left unchecked.

Never proved and not important.

However he should have been dealt with after the 1st gulf war which was brought to a halt due to the threat of Israel entering the conflict after the scud missisle attacks.

Very true.

One has to wonder though that maybe the only way to control Iraqi people is to have a tyrant like Saddam in charge.

It's not our business who runs their country.

Secondly, conventionally speaking there isn't a country on earth that can match the US superior weapons power and technology. Air power is a decisive weapon which you have in spades. The fact that you overan the 3rd largest army in the world at the time of the 1st gulf war in a matter of 2 months should serve as a warning to any other country that is foolish enought to try.

BFD

However guorrilla warfare is another matter and this is where the ememies will to fight may be greater than the America's will to fight. And can last for years.

Neutron bomb the entire Middle East.

With all those pesky people gone we could have all the oil for ourselves. Who could stop us?

[trollgirl]

With all those pesky people gone we could have all the oil for ourselves. Who could stop us?

That's the problem with weapons of mass destruction, they make killing too easy. Tell me, would you be equally eager to slit the throatsof every last one of them: men, women, small children? Think on that awhile.

Who would stop us? Try the Russians, the Chinese. Iran has more allies than you realize. We have less than you think...

Laz

[JoeE SP9]

That's the problem with weapons of mass destruction, they make killing too easy. Tell me, would you be equally eager to slit the throatsof every last one of them: men, women, small children? Think on that awhile.

Who would stop us? Try the Russians, the Chinese. Iran has more allies than you realize. We have less than you think...

Laz

No one could stop us. I recommend neutron bombs because slitting throats would cause more American casualties. Bombs from B1 and B2 bombers along with ICBM's would allow this to be done from a standoff position. No allies would be required. With the exception of Great Britain we don't really have any allies in that area now. All the other countries represented currently have no more than token representation and that is because we demanded it. Radical Islam is the greatest threat to western society that has ever existed. The goal of radical Islam is the end of democracy and the advent of Islamic rule. I do not wish to live under a theocracy run by radical Islamic mullahs. You as a woman would loose most of your personal freedoms and liberties. Remember what the Taliban attempted to do in Afghanistan. Radical Islamists want an entire world like that. FYI I do not like any religion. Islam is just the worst of the bunch.

[trollgirl]

No one could stop us. I recommend neutron bombs because slitting throats would cause more American casualties. Bombs from B1 and B2 bombers along with ICBM's would allow this to be done from a standoff position. No allies would be required. With the exception of Great Britain we don't really have any allies in that area now. All the other countries represented currently have no more than token representation and that is because we demanded it. Radical Islam is the greatest threat to western society that has ever existed. The goal of radical Islam is the end of democracy and the advent of Islamic rule. I do not wish to live under a theocracy run by radical Islamic mullahs. You as a woman would loose most of your personal freedoms and liberties. Remember what the Taliban attempted to do in Afghanistan. Radical Islamists want an entire world like that. FYI I do not like any religion. Islam is just the worst of the bunch.

I think JoeE, that you have fallen victim to American propaganda. The Russians are more capable militarily than we give them credit for. Yes I've seen the photos of rusting subs and all that, but we are too cocky and too close to Russia's back door. They are arming Iran and Syria to the teeth, and they are going to clobber US, while the Russians lose little. The Chinese are a growing threat too, and they need energy BAD, real bad. They have inked a ten billion gas deal with Iran, and they just can not let US do to Iran what we did to Iraq.

Besides, I think that militant illegal immigrants are more of a threat to US than the militant Muslims, one is real, the other is (IMO) largely a product of American Propaganda. Even if they are a threat, it is US that made them our enemy, in the service of the Zionist Occupation Government in Occupied Palestine.

My personal solution is to neutron bomb EVERYBODY except the Amish. Then there will be Paradise on Earth. I've got a good start on a beard, yes, I'm MALE. At least, don't be fooled by my moniker!

Laz

__________________________________________________ ______________________

I'm Lazarus Short, and I approve this message...but damn little else.

[JoeE SP9]

The only mistake the "Zionist" occupiers have made is to be too lenient on the Palestinians. Having been to the middle east before the Gulf War and after, I stick by what I said. We should nuke them all!!! When the oil runs out they will only start acting worse than they do now. We should nip it in the bud. The Russians will do nothing. The Chinese will protest but do nothing. While we are at it we should nuke North Korea. That is a festering sore that will do nothing but get worse.

[Wireworm5]

Markw, I object to your use of the word Brainwash. This word is so often misused. A person who is being truly brainwashed does so voluntarily without even realizing they're lifestyle has changed. It is in fact very difficult to find true examples of Brainwashing.
The best example is music, take rap for example. A person starts to listen to this crap thinking they like it and subject themselves to it willingly. What they don't realize is that the music will alter their attitudes and lifestyles, but the transition is so gradual that they themselves aren't aware their personality has changed.
A better word to use IMO would be 'indoctrinate'. This is what most people are subjected to in religious organizations.

[JoeE SP9]

Markw, I object to your use of the word Brainwash. This word is so often misused. A person who is being truly brainwashed does so voluntarily without even realizing they're lifestyle has changed. It is in fact very difficult to find true examples of Brainwashing.
The best example is music, take rap for example. A person starts to listen to this crap thinking they like it and subject themselves to it willingly. What they don't realize is that the music will alter their attitudes and lifestyles, but the transition is so gradual that they themselves aren't aware their personality has changed.
A better word to use IMO would be 'indoctrinate'. This is what most people are subjected to in religious organizations.

Brainwash is the correct term for what radical Islam does to it's followers. Anyone who gladly blows himself up or willingly flies a jet liner into a building is brainwashed in my book. And, by the way the key words here are gladly and willingly.

[JoeE SP9]

I think JoeE, that you have fallen victim to American propaganda. The Russians are more capable militarily than we give them credit for. Yes I've seen the photos of rusting subs and all that, but we are too cocky and too close to Russia's back door. They are arming Iran and Syria to the teeth, and they are going to clobber US, while the Russians lose little. The Chinese are a growing threat too, and they need energy BAD, real bad. They have inked a ten billion gas deal with Iran, and they just can not let US do to Iran what we did to Iraq.

Besides, I think that militant illegal immigrants are more of a threat to US than the militant Muslims, one is real, the other is (IMO) largely a product of American Propaganda. Even if they are a threat, it is US that made them our enemy, in the service of the Zionist Occupation Government in Occupied Palestine.

My personal solution is to neutron bomb EVERYBODY except the Amish. Then there will be Paradise on Earth. I've got a good start on a beard, yes, I'm MALE. At least, don't be fooled by my moniker!

Laz

__________________________________________________ ______________________

I'm Lazarus Short, and I approve this message...but damn little else.

I probably should mention that I am against immigration to the US by anyone for any reason.There are already enough people here with their hands out. While we are at it lets make English the official language. If we don't we the country will end up like that Texes town where Spanish is the official language of the city.

[trollgirl]

I probably should mention that I am against immigration to the US by anyone for any reason.There are already enough people here with their hands out. While we are at it lets make English the official language. If we don't we the country will end up like that Texes town where Spanish is the official language of the city.

While Spanish is a perfectly fine language, English only should be official here. What? Having their own country is not enough, they have to have ours too??

Laz

[JeffKnob]

As it stands, the rulers of these sand and oil infested countries use this book to slavishly brainwash and control their peoples and conveniently manage to blame the common folk's problems on "the infidels" rather than let on that it's the rulers themselves who are actually opressing their people while living lavish lifestyles.

This seems very similar to what Bush and the neocons are doing to this county using the Bible. He says God has appointed him or God wanted him to have that job so people blindly believe that whatever he says must be moral. There has been very little that he has done that I would consider moral. I just wish more people would see that. This country has been made into a rich man's country and there aren't enough middle and lower class people who are willing to question anything the President or his evil minions in congress are up to.

People are mad when we realize that the Islamic people are being radically influenced by their book. What about what people are doing in our country when they distort the Bible?

[Geoffcin]

Reading the gas thread below (very interesting) got me to thinking - none of those things matter if the ME goes up in flames. You think gas is expensive now?

That led to an examination of our current ME policy. The Iraq "war" was very devisive, but has faded in the public eye:

Faded? 25,000 American wounded? Thousands of American dead, and more on the was every day? This is going to fade?!

Iraq has so far been an overwhelming success story. Since most countries and the UN had a fit over this there are far-reaching positive (for the US) repercussions elsewhere, as well.

Well, you are in the minority with this belief. Most of the US public believes otherwise, and about 95% of Historians. But we don't have to look at it from history to see some figures;

Estimates are at least 1/2 trillion dollars when it's all said and done. that's 500,000,000,000 dollars if you want to see the zeros. If we forget about the 100,000 or so Iraqi dead, and the 500,000 wounded and maimed Iraqis who NEVER did a thing against America. Their only mistake was residing in a country that was at the receiving end of "Iraqi Freedom", and we sure know how to promote freedom around here. Heck, you can even find American freedom in Cuba now.

But let's talk about the positive.

Iran recently pulled Al Jeezera off the air.

I'm sure that America was responsible for this, I know how much they follow our orders.
Perhaps they mistook Dubya for the Ayatolla? I know he's got that effect on people.

The Sauds have cracked down on homegrown terrorists.

Yes, they stopped giving them millions of our oil money, or was the billions?

Libya has become a US ally.

Yeah,I heard Mohmar is going to be visting Dubya on the ranch to shoot aramdillos.

Pakistan is a US ally.

They love us over there now, I just saw some Pakistani waving the stars and stripes, it was burning, but at least he was waving it.

Syria is deathly afraid of us, and has "agreed" to pull out of Lebanon, which will almost certainly lead to the downfall of the current Baathist gov't currently in power.

Yeah, the look scared to death of us all of a sudden, especially when you take into account that Isreal has been pointing 100 nuclear missles at them from point blank for 20 years and they didn't budge. I woudn't dream that they are just playing this one for the media.

Isreal is pulling out their settlements at US prodding.

We've been prodding them with billions for years now, I wonder how much more American cash it took?

Most other ME countries have had to put on at least a show of some sort of vote.

Perhaps we should lend them the magic Dibold machines that they used in Ohio?

And you can bet that behind the scenes we are getting massive intellegence from most of the other regiemes over there.

Yes, that same "Intelegence"[sic] that produced all of the "weapons of mass destruction"
in Iraq.

[markw]

This seems very similar to what Bush and the neocons are doing to this county using the Bible.

We don't sponsor camps/schools where we INDOCTRINATE children from a very, very young age into one set theology and that anyone who believes in any theology except theirs should be exterminated. ...and they minor in weapons handling. Ever hear the phrase "Islam's Bloody Borders"?

We don't send suicide bombers, expecting 72 virgins upon death, into civilian areas in order to kill women, children and other innocents.

And, most telling of all, we accept all religions and beliefs in this country and allow them free access to worship as they please, as long as it doesn't harm others. In fact, religious freedom was one of the main reasons this country was formed in the first place. Check out The Mayflower Compact, which was signed by the pilgrims.

Now, you try being freely Jewish or Christian, or anytbing except Islamic in any of these ME countries and see how easy it is.

As far as those that radicaly distort the bible? I'm kinda undclear as to what you mean by that.

About the biggest "distorter" of the bible I can think of lately was Hitler who tried to use it to justy exterminating the Jews (and gays, and anyone else he felt like). You see how far that got once the good ole US of A got involved.


Or do you mean like David Koresh, Jim Jones and those Nike wearing, black clothed flying saucer/comet guys? They are pretty harmless to mainstream America (we ain't stoopid) and the world at large. They cause more harm to themselves and their own little band of followers than anyone else. ...tis a puzzlement, though.

Or the "hard liners" like Fallwell, Robinson and the others? They preach personal and moral beliefs, not forcing the issue on others. There's a major difference there. Their dissenters are allowed to live.

And, as for the money grubbers who exist simply to fleece hard earned money from the needy, hopeless and those who can least afford it, well, they will have to explain their actions someday to Himself for using His name to simply make a profit here on earth.

[nobody]

Do I get to go out and kill people I don't like that I'm pretty sure don't like me either or is that just the business of countries?

I am honestly curious about one aspect of this conversation that stretches from the nuke the middle east stuff to the stop people from coming into our country talk. How is it that human life and liberty only extends to the US borders in some minds? Is there really a completely different value placed on human life, depending on where the person in question was born?

Call me an unpatriotic jerk, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind around the idea that some lives are worth more than others because of a trick of birth.