Hamas and Israel

**Feanor** · 01-15-2009, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by Worf101

I wrote this in a thread on another forum when this latest skrimish first broke out almost 3 weeks ago.

"On topic number one, too deep and too long a history to go into here "intelligently". You'd have to do a study of "Zionism" and it's variations, study the relatively long and peaceful history of Safartic (sp) Jews in the region and then place into context the upheaval caused by the post WWII influx of European Jews. Study and read up on these things and perhaps a reasonable conversation could occur.

The modern state of Isreal has always been a conundrum to me, one part "can't we live in peace" and one "part never again muthaf***er". Isreal lurches from one extreme to another, just when I've hope that some negotiated peace might take hold, one side or the other puts a bullet in it or builds a wall around and through it. Strife there will end when both parts are ready for it to end. But two truths are painfully evident, first, Israel isn't going anywhere, second the Israelis can't kill or persecute their way to a solution to the "Palastinean Problem", both sides need to recognise this and they'll only do that when they're tired of killing each other and dying...."

Da Worfster

I appreciate your longer perspective here. I'm inclined to say it is somewhat at odds with the typical American "Israel is our righteous ally and we've going to stick with them" attitude -- or am I imagining that?

There are a couple of deep ironies with regards to Israel. In the first place it wouldn't exist except for the European, especially British, imperialist history in the region -- that depite the fact the Zionist immigrants had to fight the British to establish the Israeli state. The attitude of many Arabs that Israel is basically a perpetuation of European, and by inheritance, American imperialism is not at all far-fetched.

The second deep irony is that Israel was founded, and is still seen by many Zionist Jews, as a safe haven in the event of possible troubles where they are living. Given the constant strife for 50 years and Israel's unability, if not unwillingness, to achieve peace with its neighbours, one asks, "What's wrong with this picture?"

**Worf101** · 01-15-2009, 10:52 AM

The whole question of Israel is a difficult one for me. In 1963 I went from an all black school (PS 40) to an all white predominantly jewish school (PS 201) during the great bussing experiment of the 1960's. My mother did housework for Jewish families. I ate leftover Matzoh, gefilte fish and pickled herring and wore their hand me down clothes. I've lived with, served with, fought with Jews of all stripe. I've known Jewish Zionists, Socialists, Communists, Republicans and anarchists. They are no more monolithic than any race or religious group.

My biggest problem is this....

Can you care for the Palestinian without hating Israel? I believe you can. I must because I value the lives of both equally, this brings me into conflict with my jewish friends. I've value the lives of dead Israelis equally with those of dead Palestinians, if you view the conflict with this basic premise you're in for a world of hurt, particularly here in America.

I don't agree with Hamas firing rockets but they were blockaded and starving they had to get Isreal's and the worlds attention. It was a calculated risk and they knew this going in. Israel and the U.S. wanted elections in the West Bank and Gaza and Hamas, who is more than just armed terrorists, was democratically elected. Isreal and the U.S. want democracy in the Middle East as long as it elects who THEY want. Neither could allow a legitimized Hamas to stand but in fighting Hamas in this matter you legitmize it and weaken FATA and the Palestinian Authority.

Perhaps a new administration in Washington can move the ball along once the dust settlis and the blood dries. Until then.... things will go on as they are now. Constant war puncutated by brief periods of a quazi peace.

Da Worfster

**trollgirl** · 01-15-2009, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas

This thread is going to do nothing more than create hostility. I say we have it deleted.

What's more, I say we give Feanor a 'time out'.

You say that, and I haven't even weighed in yet...

This is all I'm going to say:

The United States used to be a beacon of freedom for most of the rest of the world, but now puts out such beacons everywhere. Israel, or as I prefer to call it Zionist-Occupied Palestine, used to be a David, but has now become a Goliath. It is purely obscene that the main export of both countries is Death.

Laz

**RoadRunner6** · 01-16-2009, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by Feanor

Were you thinking that I am a Hamas supporter??

No, of course not. However, it seems obvious that your support is with the less radical Palestinians and your posts and the content of the article you quote are obviously anti-Israeli/Jewish. One comment from the article you quote states: "It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief." Can the indescriminate rockets and suicede bombers of the Hamas/Palestineans defeat the deeply held beliefs of the Israelis? (sorry, but I thought I would just throw in a little reverse spin there). I might add that the less radical Palestinians are nowhere near the middle nor are they the peace loving people that I presume you seem to want to portray them as. The attempt to cover your opinions with the anti ulra right wing Zionists rhetoric IMO is simply disguised antisemitism. A pole on the AOL news today indicated that 78% of Americans support Israel over Hamas in the current conflict. I'm sure we are all duped by the ultra right wing Zionists lobby in the US.

An article by Robert Wistrich in part says it much more clearly than I can:

"..........Anti-Zionism has undoubtedly provided a wonderful alibi for anti-Semitism in deeds to cover itself with a theoretical halo of virginal purity and good intentions. It has also permitted anti-Semitic stereotypes to enter areas of the world, particularly in Asia and Africa, where there was previously no tradition or cultural substructure of Judeophobia. While at the same time in the post-war Western democracies anti-Zionism has provided a vehicle for the re-emergence of anti-Jewish attitudes which were for some twenty to twenty-five years partially submerged. This does not appear to me to be an accidental connection or mere coincidence of events. On the other hand, our analytic understanding is complicated by the fact that today nobody wishes to declare himself openly as an anti-Semite. Even neo-Nazis in the West are careful to wrap their racist mania in the appropriate “anti-Zionist” terminology.........."

Anti-Zionist translation: Anti-Jewish

No I am not Jewish or even religious for that matter. Politically, I am pretty much dead center with almost equally conservative and liberal views. I am actually amazed at the remarkable restraint that the Israelis have exhibited. Apparently the Bush administration talked them out of bombing the Iranian nuclear weapons plants (how ironic in light of the strong Zionist lobby)).

As far as my unfortunate comment about dead Palestinians: I like Rich come here for a break for the stress at work. I post many times from my portable broadband laptop while on break and lunch time. Discussing audio/HT is fun and relaxing. I have no problem with the off subject threads and everyone is free to post on any subject within reasonable limits. However, I am amazed at the number of off subject threads versus the very low participation in the actual audio/HT sections. As a Poly-Sci major and with the political campaigns of the last year I for one was in overload condition with political talk. I was surpised that other members would want to come here to contune the non-stop political discussions. I never posted in these threads other than to insert some humorous photos. When I saw this current thread I said to myself, Oh no not another political thread. My reaction to the post by Feanor was a quick off the cuff old bad joke that I learned as a kid. The only good Indian is a dead Indian, apparently originally came form old western (cowboys and Indians) movies. People would replace Indian with Yankee fans, Republicans, Norwegians or insert any group to whom you want to issue a humorous good natured insult. My comment was only intended to be a smart-ass tongue in cheek remark. Sorry for those that were offended. My intention is not to argue here with Feanor who has many, many fine threads and posts that I agree with 100%, but to point out my opinion and opposition to the indefensible postions and actions of the Palestinians IMO.

I for one will stay out of the political threads from this post on, period. I see the Israeli/Hamas situation covered hour after hour on the TV, that's enough for me, thanks.

RR6

**trollgirl** · 01-16-2009, 03:19 AM