Hamas and Israel

[Feanor]

Folks, I drawn you attention to a pretty good New York Times article, Why Israel Can’t Make Peace With Hamas. The conclusion is pretty succinct statement of the problem and what must be done ...

There is a fixed idea among some Israeli leaders that Hamas can be bombed into moderation. This is a false and dangerous notion. It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief.

The reverse is also true: Hamas cannot be cajoled into moderation. Neither position credits Hamas with sincerity, or seriousness.

The only small chance for peace today is the same chance that existed before the Gaza invasion: The moderate Arab states, Europe, the United States and, mainly, Israel, must help Hamas’s enemy, Fatah, prepare the West Bank for real freedom, and then hope that the people of Gaza, vast numbers of whom are unsympathetic to Hamas, see the West Bank as an alternative to the squalid vision of Hassan Nasrallah and Nizar Rayyan.

The "only small chance" is elusive to say the least. Principally this is because Israel's right-wing ultra-Zionists have done everything in their power to further Jewish settlement in the West Bank and generally undermine any serious peace process. Certainly, their most effective allies in furthering that agenda are Palesitinian and Islamist extremists like Hamas.

In large measure moderate, peace-seeking Israeliis are impotent because the Israeli proportional representation system ensures that if any party is to govern, it must seek some support from the right-wing constituencies. Consequently no sufficient compromises can be made with potentially moderate, peace-seeking Palestinian to given them any hope for a reasonable settlement, or suasion against their own extremists.

The right-wing Zionists second most effective ally is the United States whose government has show no backbone against them or the Israeli goverment they so handily manipuate. How come? The power of the pro-Zionist lobby in the U.S. is so great that no American polititian will stand up to it. Groups such as the AIPAC will ruthless fund pro-Zionist candidates and/or fund the opponents of less than ethusiastically pro-Zionist candidates. It's shameful that U.S. polititians can be so forced to act against both peace and the interests of the U.S. itself.

"Small chance" indeed.

[Rich-n-Texas]

This thread is going to do nothing more than create hostility. I say we have it deleted.

What's more, I say we give Feanor a 'time out'.

[Feanor]

This thread is going to do nothing more than create hostility. I say we have it deleted.

What's more, I say we give Feanor a 'time out'.

What's to disagree with? I'd have though everyone would rush to agree with me.

[JohnMichael]

This thread is going to do nothing more than create hostility. I say we have it deleted.

What's more, I say we give Feanor a 'time out'.

If the thread gets heated it will move to the steel cage. In this day and age this is an important discussion to have. I am sure it is much on the mind of President Elect Obama.


No time outs for Feanor.

[trollgirl]

This thread is going to do nothing more than create hostility. I say we have it deleted.

What's more, I say we give Feanor a 'time out'.

You say that, and I haven't even weighed in yet...

This is all I'm going to say:

The United States used to be a beacon of freedom for most of the rest of the world, but now puts out such beacons everywhere. Israel, or as I prefer to call it Zionist-Occupied Palestine, used to be a David, but has now become a Goliath. It is purely obscene that the main export of both countries is Death.

Laz

[RoadRunner6]

The only good Palestinian is an intelligent Palestinian (unfortunately, there are very few of them...that goes for their supporters too).

[JohnMichael]

The only good Palesitinian is a dead Palesitinian.

All life has value and deserves respect. Hopefully you are just trying to incite.

[Auricauricle]

All life has value and deserves respect. Hopefully you are just trying to incite.

...and not ignite. That was beneath you, RR....

This is when I think we should take the extremists on both sides to an artificial moon and let them duke it out until they make peace or wipe each other out...

Barring that, what can we do...?

[ForeverAutumn]

The only good Palesitinian is a dead Palesitinian.

Tongue in cheek or not, there are a lot of people who think that way. There are also a lot of people who think that the only good Jew is a dead Jew. Isn't that, in many respects, the crux of the problem? RR may or may not think that way, but you can't have this conversation without addressing or, at least, acknowledging the history of the intrinsic hatred that exists.

[bobsticks]

Tongue in cheek or not, there are a lot of people who think that way. There are also a lot of people who think that the only good Jew is a dead Jew. Isn't that, in many respects, the crux of the problem? RR may or may not think that way, but you can't have this conversation without addressing or, at least, acknowledging the history of the intrinsic hatred that exists.

Absolutely true. Within the political structure of both entities there are those who power/profit monger and, clearly, that will have to be addressed for any lasting peace. However, it has been proposed that if the Palestinians laid down their arms there would peace in the Middle East. If the Israelis laid down theirs, there would be genocide.

[Feanor]

Absolutely true. Within the political structure of both entities there are those who power/profit monger and, clearly, that will have to be addressed for any lasting peace. However, it has been proposed that if the Palestinians laid down their arms there would peace in the Middle East. If the Israelis laid down theirs, there would be genocide.

The two-state solution doesn't require that Israel lay down its arms, nor for that matter, that the Palestinians do so. What it does require is that both agree to stop fighting and sign a peace treaty. Before that happens it's needful the Israel get its settlers' arses out of the West Bank.

[bobsticks]

The two-state solution doesn't require that Israel lay down its arms, nor for that matter, that the Palestinians do so. What it does require is that both agree to stop fighting and sign a peace treaty. Before that happens it's needful the Israel get its settlers' arses out of the West Bank.

It's not a plan of action. I'm saying if the Palestinians disarmed there would be peace in the Middle East because it's inkeeping with the general will of the Israeli people...

...and I'm saying if Israel laid down it's arms there would be mass genocide in the region because that's the will of the zealots in charge of Hamas. There is a history of temporary cease-fires, Israeli concessions, and fundamentalist attacks.

Bottom line: young men are dying for the bull**** of old men.

[Feanor]

Tongue in cheek or not, there are a lot of people who think that way. There are also a lot of people who think that the only good Jew is a dead Jew. Isn't that, in many respects, the crux of the problem? RR may or may not think that way, but you can't have this conversation without addressing or, at least, acknowledging the history of the intrinsic hatred that exists.

The extremists on both sides are derive mutual support from each and drive this absurd impass further from a solution.

I must say that I believe that the two state solution is the only viable compromise. Fair and moderate people on both sides there, and through out the world acknowledge that, including Tony Blair who spoke to Wolf Blitzer on CNN this evening. What a tragedy that we can't just get on with it.

It wasn't always so, but today the governments of the coutries surrounding Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (apart from Hezbollah), even Syria, all fear Islamist extremism and would love to see a peaceful solution. It's time for the U.S. to step up and put real preasure on Israel to bring the whole mess to a conclusion. Here's hoping the Big O can show some balls and pull that off.

[JSE]

The extremists on both sides are derive mutual support from each and drive this absurd impass further from a solution.

I must say that I believe that the two state solution is the only viable compromise. Fair and moderate people on both sides there, and through out the world acknowledge that, including Tony Blair who spoke to Wolf Blitzer on CNN this evening. What a tragedy that we can't just get on with it.

It wasn't always so, but today the governments of the coutries surrounding Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (apart from Hezbollah), even Syria, all fear Islamist extremism and would love to see a peaceful solution. It's time for the U.S. to step up and put real preasure on Israel to bring the whole mess to a conclusion. Here's hoping the Big O can show some balls and pull that off.

For all the hatred and political attacks directed at the US in today's world, it's kindof funny those same people are still always looking to the US to fix many of the world's problems.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

[Feanor]

For all the hatred and political attacks directed at the US in today's world, it's kindof funny those same people are still always looking to the US to fix many of the world's problems.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Yep, the US is part of the problem and has got to be part of the solution. The trick is not repeat the mistakes of the past.

[Luvin Da Blues]

Tongue in cheek or not, there are a lot of people who think that way........

Or others that are just oversaturated with the news, tired of the situ, have other priorities or just plain brain numb of ME politics to give a sh!t what happens over there anymore. I fear this won't end in my lifetime so why waste any more time thinking or discussing it.



BTW, I would be one of those.

Damn, did I just contradict myself??????????

[Rich-n-Texas]

Exactly my point (not the dead palestinian part).

[Mr Peabody]

I don't understand why people get all upset when Isreal defends themselves. Hamas lobs rockets into Isreal and they are supposed to sit and smile? What do you think the U.S. would do if some one shot a rocket into our territory? Violence begets violence, Hamas are terrorists and should be dealt with as such.

With that being said I do, for lack of a better word, respect Hamas for taking care of the people in their country when the government fails to do so.

As LDB says, this issue has some history and we won't likely see it resolved.

This is half meant to be humor but I think true just the same, the upside to this battle is it gives a new hot spot for the radicals to fight and many may leave Iraq for a while which could give them an opening to get on their feet. Benlodden had to cut a tape today. I think it was his way of flipping Bush off, saying, "good bye, I'm still here, nah nah nah nah nah". Maybe he can get the Texas Rangers to go after him.

[RoadRunner6]

Sorry, I made a quick knee jerk comment (not serious) that has some history that you old farts might relate to (bad joke which I'll explain later). Busy now, but will explain my feelings in more depth in a day or two. I just have had it with the sympathy for Muslim terrorists (Iraqi's, Iranian's, Saudi's, Palestinians and on and on). The same people who seem to be worried about the civil rights of prisoners in our military POW camps seem to have no worries about the victims of those terrorists who blow up themselves, their enemies and everyone else with absolutely no civilized constraints.

I don't believe we or the Israelis are without fault in some of our actions. However, the pro- Palestinian "right-wing ultra-Zionists" tag is tiresome and extremist in itself. I also feel I am a very open minded person. That said, I can't see any logical support of the Hamas actions based on the history and current situation in the Middle East. There are those who believe that there was no Holocaust. The same level of reasoning produces Western supporters of the Hamas. This is the same level of reasoning that states that we ourselves are in large part responsible for 9/11. IMO the Israelis are completely justified going into Gaza.

RR6

[Feanor]

...

I don't believe we or the Israelis are without fault in some of our actions. However, the pro- Palestinian "right-wing ultra-Zionists" tag is tiresome and extremist in itself. I also feel I am a very open minded person. That said, I can't see any logical support of the Hamas actions based on the history and current situation in the Middle East. There are those who believe that there was no Holocaust. The same level of reasoning produces Western supporters of the Hamas. This is the same level of reasoning that states that we ourselves are in large part responsible for 9/11. IMO the Israelis are completely justified going into Gaza.

RR6

Were you thinking that I am a Hamas supporter?? Because that is certainly not so. I categorically oppose terrorists and extremists and don't believe you can effectively deal with them -- that is my point as well as the point of the NYT article.

What you've got to do is deal fairly with reasonable, moderate people. To repeat myself, there has been a huge failure on the part of the Israeli government to do this, and as a consequence, radical power has increased.

[RoadRunner6]

Were you thinking that I am a Hamas supporter??

No, of course not. However, it seems obvious that your support is with the less radical Palestinians and your posts and the content of the article you quote are obviously anti-Israeli/Jewish. One comment from the article you quote states: "It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief." Can the indescriminate rockets and suicede bombers of the Hamas/Palestineans defeat the deeply held beliefs of the Israelis? (sorry, but I thought I would just throw in a little reverse spin there). I might add that the less radical Palestinians are nowhere near the middle nor are they the peace loving people that I presume you seem to want to portray them as. The attempt to cover your opinions with the anti ulra right wing Zionists rhetoric IMO is simply disguised antisemitism. A pole on the AOL news today indicated that 78% of Americans support Israel over Hamas in the current conflict. I'm sure we are all duped by the ultra right wing Zionists lobby in the US.

An article by Robert Wistrich in part says it much more clearly than I can:

"..........Anti-Zionism has undoubtedly provided a wonderful alibi for anti-Semitism in deeds to cover itself with a theoretical halo of virginal purity and good intentions. It has also permitted anti-Semitic stereotypes to enter areas of the world, particularly in Asia and Africa, where there was previously no tradition or cultural substructure of Judeophobia. While at the same time in the post-war Western democracies anti-Zionism has provided a vehicle for the re-emergence of anti-Jewish attitudes which were for some twenty to twenty-five years partially submerged. This does not appear to me to be an accidental connection or mere coincidence of events. On the other hand, our analytic understanding is complicated by the fact that today nobody wishes to declare himself openly as an anti-Semite. Even neo-Nazis in the West are careful to wrap their racist mania in the appropriate “anti-Zionist” terminology.........."

Anti-Zionist translation: Anti-Jewish

No I am not Jewish or even religious for that matter. Politically, I am pretty much dead center with almost equally conservative and liberal views. I am actually amazed at the remarkable restraint that the Israelis have exhibited. Apparently the Bush administration talked them out of bombing the Iranian nuclear weapons plants (how ironic in light of the strong Zionist lobby)).

As far as my unfortunate comment about dead Palestinians: I like Rich come here for a break for the stress at work. I post many times from my portable broadband laptop while on break and lunch time. Discussing audio/HT is fun and relaxing. I have no problem with the off subject threads and everyone is free to post on any subject within reasonable limits. However, I am amazed at the number of off subject threads versus the very low participation in the actual audio/HT sections. As a Poly-Sci major and with the political campaigns of the last year I for one was in overload condition with political talk. I was surpised that other members would want to come here to contune the non-stop political discussions. I never posted in these threads other than to insert some humorous photos. When I saw this current thread I said to myself, Oh no not another political thread. My reaction to the post by Feanor was a quick off the cuff old bad joke that I learned as a kid. The only good Indian is a dead Indian, apparently originally came form old western (cowboys and Indians) movies. People would replace Indian with Yankee fans, Republicans, Norwegians or insert any group to whom you want to issue a humorous good natured insult. My comment was only intended to be a smart-ass tongue in cheek remark. Sorry for those that were offended. My intention is not to argue here with Feanor who has many, many fine threads and posts that I agree with 100%, but to point out my opinion and opposition to the indefensible postions and actions of the Palestinians IMO.

I for one will stay out of the political threads from this post on, period. I see the Israeli/Hamas situation covered hour after hour on the TV, that's enough for me, thanks.

RR6

[trollgirl]

Anti-Zionist translation: Anti-Jewish

The trouble with your conclusion is that there are Jews who are anti-Zionist, and please do not disgust me with that "self-hater" dreck.

Laz

[Worf101]

I for one will stay out of the political threads from this post on, period. I see the Israeli/Hamas situation covered hour after hour on the TV, that's enough for me, thanks.

RR6

You come in here with a passionate but reasoned response and now want to leave? Shame, I closely read what you had to say and see much validity in it. But the truth is you CAN be critical of Israel and NOT be an anti-semite. There has to be open and honest dialoge that doen't decend immediately into name calling. Your off the cuff joke might have been in bad taste and would've easily been overlooked save for the fact that there are many Israelis and Jews who do feel that the only "good" Palestinian is a "dead" one. But you're right that phrase can and has been used many times and ways over the years. Be that as it may I hope you continue to give your opinion on matters other than LCD's and Blu-Ray players.

Da Worfster

[Feanor]

No, of course not. However, it seems obvious that your support is with the less radical Palestinians and your posts and the content of the article you quote are obviously anti-Israeli/Jewish. ....

I'm not anti-Jewish nor anti-Israeli for that matter. I'm a supporter of a two-state solution and would like to see it implement soon and fairly. The two-state solution by definition respects existence of the Israeli state.

In fact, (just to offend everyone equally), I have been disappointed consistently over the decades Arab states surrounding Israel. Prior to the peace tready with Egypt, the latter did nothing to help the Palestinians and everything to exacerbate the local situation. But today the immediate neighbours of Israel are no longer the problem. They at least tacitly support a two-state solution and fear Islamists like Hamas and Hezbollah. It is principally Iran that is fundamental enemy of Israel today.

... An article by Robert Wistrich in part says it much more clearly than I can:

"..........Anti-Zionism has undoubtedly provided a wonderful alibi for anti-Semitism in deeds to cover itself with a theoretical halo of virginal purity and good intentions. It has also permitted anti-Semitic stereotypes to enter areas of the world....."

Anti-Zionist translation: Anti-Jewish ...

Yes, there are anti-Semites out there and some use the cover of anti-Zionism. But the general statement, "Anti-Zionist = Anti-Jewish" is bullsh!t and essentially an attempt to put the state of Israel above criticism -- sorry, that isn't going to work.

...
As far as my unfortunate comment about dead Palestinian ...

RR6

Since you have more or less apologized, you are more or less forgiven.

"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen", as Harry Truman (or somebody) once said. If controversial, non-audio topics trouble you avoid the Off-Topic Forum as ForeverAutumn wisely suggested.

[ForeverAutumn]

"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen", as Harry Truman (or somebody) once said. If controversial, non-audio topics trouble you avoid the Off-Topic Forum as ForeverAutumn wisely suggested.

Actually, I just suggested that you don't read the offending thread. Not avoid the forum altogether. I'm just clarifying.