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  1. #1
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Hamas and Israel

    Folks, I drawn you attention to a pretty good New York Times article, Why Israel Canít Make Peace With Hamas. The conclusion is pretty succinct statement of the problem and what must be done ...
    There is a fixed idea among some Israeli leaders that Hamas can be bombed into moderation. This is a false and dangerous notion. It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief.

    The reverse is also true: Hamas cannot be cajoled into moderation. Neither position credits Hamas with sincerity, or seriousness.

    The only small chance for peace today is the same chance that existed before the Gaza invasion: The moderate Arab states, Europe, the United States and, mainly, Israel, must help Hamasís enemy, Fatah, prepare the West Bank for real freedom, and then hope that the people of Gaza, vast numbers of whom are unsympathetic to Hamas, see the West Bank as an alternative to the squalid vision of Hassan Nasrallah and Nizar Rayyan.
    The "only small chance" is elusive to say the least. Principally this is because Israel's right-wing ultra-Zionists have done everything in their power to further Jewish settlement in the West Bank and generally undermine any serious peace process. Certainly, their most effective allies in furthering that agenda are Palesitinian and Islamist extremists like Hamas.

    In large measure moderate, peace-seeking Israeliis are impotent because the Israeli proportional representation system ensures that if any party is to govern, it must seek some support from the right-wing constituencies. Consequently no sufficient compromises can be made with potentially moderate, peace-seeking Palestinian to given them any hope for a reasonable settlement, or suasion against their own extremists.

    The right-wing Zionists second most effective ally is the United States whose government has show no backbone against them or the Israeli goverment they so handily manipuate. How come? The power of the pro-Zionist lobby in the U.S. is so great that no American polititian will stand up to it. Groups such as the AIPAC will ruthless fund pro-Zionist candidates and/or fund the opponents of less than ethusiastically pro-Zionist candidates. It's shameful that U.S. polititians can be so forced to act against both peace and the interests of the U.S. itself.

    "Small chance" indeed.

  2. #2
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    This thread is going to do nothing more than create hostility. I say we have it deleted.

    What's more, I say we give Feanor a 'time out'.

  3. #3
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Oh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    This thread is going to do nothing more than create hostility. I say we have it deleted.

    What's more, I say we give Feanor a 'time out'.
    What's to disagree with? I'd have though everyone would rush to agree with me.

  4. #4
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    The only good Palestinian is an intelligent Palestinian (unfortunately, there are very few of them...that goes for their supporters too).
    Last edited by RoadRunner6; 01-14-2009 at 10:31 PM.

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    Exactly my point (not the dead palestinian part).

  6. #6
    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    This thread is going to do nothing more than create hostility. I say we have it deleted.

    What's more, I say we give Feanor a 'time out'.


    If the thread gets heated it will move to the steel cage. In this day and age this is an important discussion to have. I am sure it is much on the mind of President Elect Obama.


    No time outs for Feanor.
    JohnMichael
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    Super Moderator Site Moderator JohnMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    The only good Palesitinian is a dead Palesitinian.



    All life has value and deserves respect. Hopefully you are just trying to incite.
    JohnMichael
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    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    All life has value and deserves respect. Hopefully you are just trying to incite.
    ...and not ignite. That was beneath you, RR....

    This is when I think we should take the extremists on both sides to an artificial moon and let them duke it out until they make peace or wipe each other out...

    Barring that, what can we do...?
    "The great tragedy of science--the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact."--T. Huxley

  9. #9
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    The only good Palesitinian is a dead Palesitinian.
    Tongue in cheek or not, there are a lot of people who think that way. There are also a lot of people who think that the only good Jew is a dead Jew. Isn't that, in many respects, the crux of the problem? RR may or may not think that way, but you can't have this conversation without addressing or, at least, acknowledging the history of the intrinsic hatred that exists.

  10. #10
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    Tongue in cheek or not, there are a lot of people who think that way. There are also a lot of people who think that the only good Jew is a dead Jew. Isn't that, in many respects, the crux of the problem? RR may or may not think that way, but you can't have this conversation without addressing or, at least, acknowledging the history of the intrinsic hatred that exists.
    Absolutely true. Within the political structure of both entities there are those who power/profit monger and, clearly, that will have to be addressed for any lasting peace. However, it has been proposed that if the Palestinians laid down their arms there would peace in the Middle East. If the Israelis laid down theirs, there would be genocide.
    So, I broke into the palace
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    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  11. #11
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    True

    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    Tongue in cheek or not, there are a lot of people who think that way. There are also a lot of people who think that the only good Jew is a dead Jew. Isn't that, in many respects, the crux of the problem? RR may or may not think that way, but you can't have this conversation without addressing or, at least, acknowledging the history of the intrinsic hatred that exists.
    The extremists on both sides are derive mutual support from each and drive this absurd impass further from a solution.

    I must say that I believe that the two state solution is the only viable compromise. Fair and moderate people on both sides there, and through out the world acknowledge that, including Tony Blair who spoke to Wolf Blitzer on CNN this evening. What a tragedy that we can't just get on with it.

    It wasn't always so, but today the governments of the coutries surrounding Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (apart from Hezbollah), even Syria, all fear Islamist extremism and would love to see a peaceful solution. It's time for the U.S. to step up and put real preasure on Israel to bring the whole mess to a conclusion. Here's hoping the Big O can show some balls and pull that off.

  12. #12
    _ Luvin Da Blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverAutumn
    Tongue in cheek or not, there are a lot of people who think that way........
    Or others that are just oversaturated with the news, tired of the situ, have other priorities or just plain brain numb of ME politics to give a sh!t what happens over there anymore. I fear this won't end in my lifetime so why waste any more time thinking or discussing it.



    BTW, I would be one of those.

    Damn, did I just contradict myself??????????
    Back in my day, we had nine planets.

  13. #13
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Not the point

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Absolutely true. Within the political structure of both entities there are those who power/profit monger and, clearly, that will have to be addressed for any lasting peace. However, it has been proposed that if the Palestinians laid down their arms there would peace in the Middle East. If the Israelis laid down theirs, there would be genocide.
    The two-state solution doesn't require that Israel lay down its arms, nor for that matter, that the Palestinians do so. What it does require is that both agree to stop fighting and sign a peace treaty. Before that happens it's needful the Israel get its settlers' arses out of the West Bank.

  14. #14
    JSE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    The extremists on both sides are derive mutual support from each and drive this absurd impass further from a solution.

    I must say that I believe that the two state solution is the only viable compromise. Fair and moderate people on both sides there, and through out the world acknowledge that, including Tony Blair who spoke to Wolf Blitzer on CNN this evening. What a tragedy that we can't just get on with it.

    It wasn't always so, but today the governments of the coutries surrounding Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (apart from Hezbollah), even Syria, all fear Islamist extremism and would love to see a peaceful solution. It's time for the U.S. to step up and put real preasure on Israel to bring the whole mess to a conclusion. Here's hoping the Big O can show some balls and pull that off.

    For all the hatred and political attacks directed at the US in today's world, it's kindof funny those same people are still always looking to the US to fix many of the world's problems.

    Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

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    I don't understand why people get all upset when Isreal defends themselves. Hamas lobs rockets into Isreal and they are supposed to sit and smile? What do you think the U.S. would do if some one shot a rocket into our territory? Violence begets violence, Hamas are terrorists and should be dealt with as such.

    With that being said I do, for lack of a better word, respect Hamas for taking care of the people in their country when the government fails to do so.

    As LDB says, this issue has some history and we won't likely see it resolved.

    This is half meant to be humor but I think true just the same, the upside to this battle is it gives a new hot spot for the radicals to fight and many may leave Iraq for a while which could give them an opening to get on their feet. Benlodden had to cut a tape today. I think it was his way of flipping Bush off, saying, "good bye, I'm still here, nah nah nah nah nah". Maybe he can get the Texas Rangers to go after him.

  16. #16
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    Sorry, I made a quick knee jerk comment (not serious) that has some history that you old farts might relate to (bad joke which I'll explain later). Busy now, but will explain my feelings in more depth in a day or two. I just have had it with the sympathy for Muslim terrorists (Iraqi's, Iranian's, Saudi's, Palestinians and on and on). The same people who seem to be worried about the civil rights of prisoners in our military POW camps seem to have no worries about the victims of those terrorists who blow up themselves, their enemies and everyone else with absolutely no civilized constraints.

    I don't believe we or the Israelis are without fault in some of our actions. However, the pro- Palestinian "right-wing ultra-Zionists" tag is tiresome and extremist in itself. I also feel I am a very open minded person. That said, I can't see any logical support of the Hamas actions based on the history and current situation in the Middle East. There are those who believe that there was no Holocaust. The same level of reasoning produces Western supporters of the Hamas. This is the same level of reasoning that states that we ourselves are in large part responsible for 9/11. IMO the Israelis are completely justified going into Gaza.

    RR6
    Last edited by RoadRunner6; 01-15-2009 at 12:49 AM.

  17. #17
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    But, it is the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    The two-state solution doesn't require that Israel lay down its arms, nor for that matter, that the Palestinians do so. What it does require is that both agree to stop fighting and sign a peace treaty. Before that happens it's needful the Israel get its settlers' arses out of the West Bank.
    It's not a plan of action. I'm saying if the Palestinians disarmed there would be peace in the Middle East because it's inkeeping with the general will of the Israeli people...

    ...and I'm saying if Israel laid down it's arms there would be mass genocide in the region because that's the will of the zealots in charge of Hamas. There is a history of temporary cease-fires, Israeli concessions, and fundamentalist attacks.

    Bottom line: young men are dying for the bull**** of old men.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

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    My first post was also tongue-in-check. I suppose Feanor doesn't know me as well as I thought he did.

    Nevertheless, I come to AR to have fun and talk A/V. This thread is neither. I'm going to try my damndest to stay out of politics on this non-political (in theory) discussion forum as my New Years resolution. If by chance I contradict myself (I know, I know) feel free to point it out to me.

  19. #19
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Absolutely

    Quote Originally Posted by JSE
    For all the hatred and political attacks directed at the US in today's world, it's kindof funny those same people are still always looking to the US to fix many of the world's problems.

    Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
    Yep, the US is part of the problem and has got to be part of the solution. The trick is not repeat the mistakes of the past.

  20. #20
    Musicaholic Forums Moderator ForeverAutumn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    I come to AR to have fun and talk A/V. This thread is neither.
    You have no obligation to read or participate in any thread that makes you uncomfortable. I ignore threads here all the time.

    Personally, I enjoy these off topic discussions. I don't always participate because my knowledge of political issues isn't as great as some others here. But I enjoy reading everybody's different points of view. And every once in a while, I learn something.

  21. #21
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Not much of a point, though

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    It's not a plan of action. I'm saying if the Palestinians disarmed there would be peace in the Middle East because it's inkeeping with the general will of the Israeli people...

    ...and I'm saying if Israel laid down it's arms there would be mass genocide in the region because that's the will of the zealots in charge of Hamas. There is a history of temporary cease-fires, Israeli concessions, and fundamentalist attacks.

    Bottom line: young men are dying for the bull**** of old men.
    As far as what happens when who lays down their arms goes, you're totally correct. However the Palestinians will not disarm 'till they get some justice.

    Israeli concessions have been patheticaly inadequate, plus they have a tendancy to back-tracking on the least pretext. Hello!! This is largely responsible for the radicalization of Palestinians. Like the NYT article points out, there is no negociating with radicals like Hamas (nor beating them into submission either). Israel has failed to earn the trust and support of the Palestinians are (or once were) inclined to moderation.

  22. #22
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    This is an AV forum, first and foremost; but I keep returning because this is one of the few places that I can turn to for informed opinion and debate about issues that matter. We have a smart buncha members here and it is you, my brothers and sisters, I turn to at the end of a long day for laughter and tickling the old brain. If I get sharp now and then, it is only because I care about an issue and I have too much regard for the addressee to blow (him) off with a shrug.

    I hope that, in saying this we can continue these forums in the spirit of good-natured fun and intelligent intent. I thank you for letting me play on your jungle gym, and invite you to my monkey bar (banana daquiri, anyone?).

  23. #23
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Just to clear

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    ...

    I don't believe we or the Israelis are without fault in some of our actions. However, the pro- Palestinian "right-wing ultra-Zionists" tag is tiresome and extremist in itself. I also feel I am a very open minded person. That said, I can't see any logical support of the Hamas actions based on the history and current situation in the Middle East. There are those who believe that there was no Holocaust. The same level of reasoning produces Western supporters of the Hamas. This is the same level of reasoning that states that we ourselves are in large part responsible for 9/11. IMO the Israelis are completely justified going into Gaza.

    RR6
    Were you thinking that I am a Hamas supporter?? Because that is certainly not so. I categorically oppose terrorists and extremists and don't believe you can effectively deal with them -- that is my point as well as the point of the NYT article.

    What you've got to do is deal fairly with reasonable, moderate people. To repeat myself, there has been a huge failure on the part of the Israeli government to do this, and as a consequence, radical power has increased.

  24. #24
    Sgt. At Arms Worf101's Avatar
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    Sigh....

    I wrote this in a thread on another forum when this latest skrimish first broke out almost 3 weeks ago.

    "On topic number one, too deep and too long a history to go into here "intelligently". You'd have to do a study of "Zionism" and it's variations, study the relatively long and peaceful history of Safartic (sp) Jews in the region and then place into context the upheaval caused by the post WWII influx of European Jews. Study and read up on these things and perhaps a reasonable conversation could occur.

    The modern state of Isreal has always been a conundrum to me, one part "can't we live in peace" and one "part never again muthaf***er". Isreal lurches from one extreme to another, just when I've hope that some negotiated peace might take hold, one side or the other puts a bullet in it or builds a wall around and through it. Strife there will end when both parts are ready for it to end. But two truths are painfully evident, first, Israel isn't going anywhere, second the Israelis can't kill or persecute their way to a solution to the "Palastinean Problem", both sides need to recognise this and they'll only do that when they're tired of killing each other and dying...."

    Da Worfster

  25. #25
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worf101
    I wrote this in a thread on another forum when this latest skrimish first broke out almost 3 weeks ago.

    "On topic number one, too deep and too long a history to go into here "intelligently". You'd have to do a study of "Zionism" and it's variations, study the relatively long and peaceful history of Safartic (sp) Jews in the region and then place into context the upheaval caused by the post WWII influx of European Jews. Study and read up on these things and perhaps a reasonable conversation could occur.

    The modern state of Isreal has always been a conundrum to me, one part "can't we live in peace" and one "part never again muthaf***er". Isreal lurches from one extreme to another, just when I've hope that some negotiated peace might take hold, one side or the other puts a bullet in it or builds a wall around and through it. Strife there will end when both parts are ready for it to end. But two truths are painfully evident, first, Israel isn't going anywhere, second the Israelis can't kill or persecute their way to a solution to the "Palastinean Problem", both sides need to recognise this and they'll only do that when they're tired of killing each other and dying...."

    Da Worfster
    Sums up my thoughts better than I could say it. For that I give an uprecedented 5 Kexticles
    @@@@@

    I'm as opinionated as they come, but on this issue, well there's more than enough blame to go around the table twice and it's just a big **** storm now.

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